Vitiate/Kun/Malak v. Sidious/Krayt/Maul

Originally posted by Sinious
What potency? You mean he couldn't one-shot an amped Dark Council without getting amped himself? Sure. Its proven that he can one-shot a Dark Council with no amp involved though.

You clearly are not understanding the point. Think Bane vs Zannah on Ambria. It's possible Vitiate could bring powers to bear on a nexus he couldn't normally, and being on a nexus doesn't necessarily mean the DC had a get-out-free card. That's all he's saying.

The point is we don't know the circumstances, we don't know what kind of prep was involved, we don't even know exactly what happened. It's an ambiguous event with too many unknown variables to make any reliable claims about it.

Revan on the other hand was instantly overwhelmed.

Sidious and Yoda are equals, Revan and Vitiate aren't. No one is denying this.

The denial part comes in when you start throwing around claims like "Revan only fared well because his name's on the cover, he'd be instantly overwhelmed otherwise".

Revan put him in his ass, twice. Vitiate was hesitant to face the three of them as a unit. Scourge's visions showed many possible futures where Vitiate was defeated by Revan. Revan continued to influence him over the course of centuries. The idea that Revan is fodder to Vitiate is almost laughable.

If the gap of power between them is as small as you make it sound, he wouldnt go down that fast against Vitiate's first serious offense.

You have yet to prove he wasn't fighting seriously before.

👍

@ Tempest

You should reply yourself tbh and not to my response to Newguy but the one you're supposed to reply cause I know you'll ignore that one and just reply this post. 😄

@ Newguy

I never use Vitiate's DC one-shoting feat in debates for the same reason. However, I'm curious to know if you honestly think inspecting the details to that degree and using the lack of exposure in even the smallest of details against the character is a healthy way of approaching feats. How many times did that(something like Zannah's nexus feat) happen in the myhtos? He obviously used prep to reach that level of power since his showings with context prove he isn't naturally that strong but to mention the nexus amp and say it might have allowed Vitiate to use new techniques that he normally couldn't use is a bit reaching imo. Especialy since it was most likely a lightning alike attack. Though at first I considered it irrelevant cause both sides were aligned with the dark side of the force.

I just said that randomly and didn't even construct an argument based on it. Obviously being the main character doesn't grant him any advantages. I've also said other things about that fight throughout the thread so you can address them if you want to. Can you also prove your claims? Like how at what point did Vitiate start to hesitate and feel truly in danger? Revan is no fodder to Vitiate like Vader is no fodder to Sidious. He can't "give him hell" though.

He tried to TP rape him instead of fighting him and even had his guard down at first. He sent small lightning bursts instead of proper attacks and his effectiveness in the battle vastly changed after he realized he underestimated his enemy. Isn't the text itself proof?

Originally posted by Sinious
@ Tempest

You should reply yourself tbh and not to my response to Newguy but the one you're supposed to reply cause I know you'll ignore that one and just reply this post. 😄

But if he's in agreement with my post, what's the point of him rehashing it?

I never use Vitiate's DC one-shoting feat in debates for the same reason.

Except apparently this one.

Especially since it was most likely a lightning alike attack. Though at first I considered it irrelevant cause both sides were aligned with the dark side of the force.

Honestly I don't think it's that easy/simple. When faced with an amplified storm of Vitiate's lightning, does being on a nexus make them as able to defend against the torrent as effectively as they would if it wasn't amped at all? There's not necessarily a right answer to this, but it's something Id like you to think on; we're not dealing with a clean mathematical equation here.

I've also said other things about that fight throughout the thread so you can address them if you want to.

/shrug, I just got here.

Can you also prove your claims? Like how at what point did Vitiate start to hesitate and feel truly in danger?

Can't really provide quotes right now, I'm at school and on my phone. Maybe Temp can help you out.

He tried to TP rape him instead of fighting him

Sure, that's one of his preferred tactics.

and even had his guard down at first.

He had his guard down because he was putting all of his concentration into his attempt at breaking Revan's will. I'm pretty sure this is explicitly stated in the text.

He sent small lightning bursts instead of proper attacks

*He fought normally rather than unleashing his most powerful attack at the get-go.

Not that I don't agree Karpyshyn is terrible at writing fights.

Also, Revan's relationship with Tenebrae isn't the same as Vader's with Palps. I restate: Scourge saw Revan winning against Vitiate in a healthy portion of his visions of the future. This means without a shadow of a doubt that Revan/co. could compete with him. On Dromund Kaas.

Originally posted by Sinious
@ Tempest

You should reply yourself tbh and not to my response to Newguy but the one you're supposed to reply cause I know you'll ignore that one and just reply this post. 😄

I was at work and NewGuy01, my chosen successor in the Sheevite religion, has performed ably on my behalf. I see no reason to regurgitate what he's already posted.

Scourge observed Vitiate's hesitation when the Exile entered the fray. It's the same hesitation that prevented Vitiate from acting until Scourge betrayed Revan by killing Surik. And as my protege already reminded you, Scourge saw many visions of Revan triumphing over Vitiate.

Is Vitiate more powerful than Revan? Sure. But the text makes it quite clear, in a number of ways, that the gap between them isn't as remotely profound as you want it to be. It wasn't remotely a stomp.

There's really nothing left to say on the matter imo. My conclusions are based from explicit statements from the relevant text.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But if he's in agreement with my post, what's the point of him rehashing it?

Cause you didn't address the entirety of it. I want him to prove to me that Vitiate hesitated. I'm open to changing my opinion if he actually proves it.

Except apparently this one.

Honestly I don't think it's that easy/simple. When faced with an amplified storm of Vitiate's lightning, does being on a nexus make them as able to defend against the torrent as effectively as they would if it wasn't amped at all? There's not necessarily a right answer to this, but it's something Id like you to think on; we're not dealing with a clean mathematical equation here.

Can't really provide quotes right now, I'm at school and on my phone. Maybe Temp can help you out.

Sure, that's one of his preferred tactics.

Is it preferred cause it makes it easier for him to win though? Its harder for Vitiate to mindrape someone than simply take them out with lightning imo. I like to compare novel Vitiate's battle tactics to SWTOR Vitiate's tactics to have a better understanding of what really went down. In the novel he was reckless on all accounts and was too cocky. As you can see in the cutscenes, he doesn't try to mindrape his enemies without fighting them but first takes them out with his potent attacks right away. In the novel, we see the exact opposite of that.

He had his guard down because he was putting all of his concentration into his attempt at breaking Revan's will. I'm pretty sure this is explicitly stated in the text.

*He fought normally rather than unleashing his most powerful attack at the get-go.

Not that I don't agree Karpyshyn is terrible at writing fights.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, Revan's relationship with Tenebrae isn't the same as Vader's with Palps. I restate: Scourge saw Revan winning against Vitiate in a healthy portion of his visions of the future. This means without a shadow of a doubt that Revan/co. could compete with him. On Dromund Kaas.

As for the visions Scourge saw, I have an entirely different approach to them than most people. I believe what Drew tried to do there was bringing in a concept to the novel that would make it more interesting which is a sith admiring the Jedi and learning their abilities. We always see Jedi falling to the dark side and learning new cool tricks but with Scourge it was the other way around and despite his capabilities as a force user, he noobed out big time when he first tried to see force visions which is quite natural. IIRC, the novel says that Scourge saw millions of different scenarios regarding the future. I think we are simply being told that anything can happen in the future and Scourge's countless visions have little importance in a versus matchup. This concept has no significance when comparing the powers of characters imo.

Originally posted by Sinious
Cause you didn't address the entirety of it. I want him to prove to me that Vitiate hesitated. I'm open to changing my opinion if he actually proves it.

Revan
Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

Revan
“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”

“That remains to be seen,” the Emperor replied.

RevanMeetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest.

All of this was right around the same passage you cited, so I'm not sure how you missed it. The text says Vitiate hesitated, Vitiate himself doesn't expressly contradict the idea that the three could beat him, and Vitiate only attacked when Revan was distracted and the Exile was killed.

Pretty goddamn clear tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I was at work and NewGuy01, my chosen successor in the Sheevite religion, has performed ably on my behalf. I see no reason to regurgitate what he's already posted.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All of this was right around the same passage you cited, so I'm not sure how you missed it. The text says Vitiate hesitated, Vitiate himself doesn't expressly contradict the idea that the three could beat him, and Vitiate only attacked when Revan was distracted and the Exile was killed.

Pretty goddamn clear tbh.

Vitiate hesitated because he had no earthly clue who Meetra was and was evaluating her. She could have been another Revan, so he'd be wary of assuming he can crush her and underestimate another opponent.

Vitiate not contradicting them and attacking when they're distracted aren't evidence of anything tbh.

If we are practicing critical thinking, how about not exaggerating the nexus effect? I like to acknowledge its effect and agree that it makes a feat less impressive but people started ignoring nexus feats completely and now this seems like even more extreme than that.

How about you prove that I'm exaggerating it? Just like I said before, there is no clean mathematical equation to calculate how a force nexus affects force user's abilities. Each of them is different, and there is no sense in trying to legitimize a nexus feat as something that can be performed without one.

You can't say "it's less impressive, but they can still do this and that" because you don't know how much less impressive it is. You can't know. It's an undefined, but clearly prominent, variable. It's best not to bother using them in debates.

. I like to compare novel Vitiate's battle tactics to SWTOR Vitiate's tactics to have a better understanding of what really went down. In the novel he was reckless on all accounts and was too cocky. As you can see in the cutscenes, he doesn't try to mindrape his enemies without fighting them but first takes them out with his potent attacks right away. In the novel, we see the exact opposite of that.

That's because Vitiate was written by different people. Variations like that are something that you have to learn to expect with bland, personality-less characters like Vitiate.

And again, more evidence Drew is terrible at writing fights. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate hesitated because he had no earthly clue who Meetra was and was evaluating her. She could have been another Revan, so he'd be wary of assuming he can crush her and underestimate another opponent.

Vitiate not contradicting them and attacking when they're distracted aren't evidence of anything tbh.

A low-level Force sensitive like Nick Rostu can quickly assess the relative Force strength of Darth Vader and Kar Vastor.

The idea that Vitiate, whom you tout to be an unparalleled Force user and genius on par with Palpatine, would be scratching his head and needing to phone a friend to figure out the Exile is a silly, silly thought.

Yeah... the perennially arrogant uber-powerful super-genius hesitates to take on a trio consisting of a wounded guy, a stranger, and a flunky for absolutely no reason whatsoever makes sense!

lol get outta here

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A low-level Force sensitive like Nick Rostu can quickly assess the relative Force strength of Darth Vader and Kar Vastor.

The idea that Vitiate, whom you tout to be an unparalleled Force user and genius on par with Palpatine, would be scratching his head and needing to phone a friend to figure out the Exile is a silly, silly thought.

Yeah... the perennially arrogant uber-powerful super-genius hesitates to take on a trio consisting of a wounded guy, a stranger, and a flunky for absolutely no reason whatsoever makes sense!

lol get outta here

Cool story. Unfortunately that's what the book literally says he was doing so you just wasted 3 paragraphs pointlessly.

"waste pointlessly"? Can you waste non-pointlessly? You seem mad.

Nah, the book says he hesitates, the book says he doesn't contradict a wounded Revan, and only attacks when (a) the Exile is killed and (b) Revan is distracted.

Vitiate is clearly not up to the challenge. Don't blame me for your crush's weaknesses and shortcomings. 😬

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How about you prove that I'm exaggerating it? Just like I said before, there is no clean mathematical equation to calculate how a force nexus affects force user's abilities. Each of them is different, and there is no sense in trying to legitimize a nexus feat as something that can be performed without one.

You can't say "it's less impressive, but they can still do this and that" because you don't know how much less impressive it is. You can't know. It's an undefined, but clearly prominent, variable. It's best not to bother using them in debates.

So with that logic, if I make a thread and make the setting a dark side nexus, would someone like Darth Bane stomp a character that has no nexus feats cause we don't know how powerful that character would be on a nexus? Plagueis vs Bane on Korriban, who wins?

That's because Vitiate was written by different people. Variations like that are something that you have to learn to expect with bland, personality-less characters like Vitiate.

And again, more evidence Drew is terrible at writing fights. 👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
"waste pointlessly"? Can you waste non-pointlessly? You seem mad.

Nah, the book says he hesitates, the book says he doesn't contradict a wounded Revan, and only attacks when (a) the Exile is killed and (b) Revan is distracted.

Vitiate is clearly not up to the challenge. Don't blame me for your crush's weaknesses and shortcomings. 😬

You could waste time in a show of bravado or something.

The book says hes hesitate so he can evaluate Meetra. You posted the quote, I trust that you can actually read it. Not being aggressive in his statements isn't a sign of weakness. Sidious only attacked Luke when he was unarmed. Does that mean that he couldn't before Luke tossed his saber? No, all it means is that thats how it went down. You're taking from it what you want to take from it.

Vitiate would have won anyway, it is known.

That's an exceptionally stupid comparison, even for you; Luke throwing down his weapon is what pissed the Emperor off to attack him. Not remotely the same circumstances.

The text describes the Exile's death and Revan's distraction as the opening Vitiate needed. Scourge experienced visions of Vitiate dying.

So yeah, you pretty much don't have a case. It was a coin flip if Vitiate could take on a wounded Revan, the Exile, and Scourge.

deal wid it bro 👍

Originally posted by Nephthys
all it means is that thats how it went done. You're taking from it what you want to take from it.

👆

Please Sin, regale us with how Vitiate hesitated only because he couldn't choose one of the zillion ways he'd effortlessly stomp the three and that Scourge wasn't really having visions of Vitiate losing but was in fact quite drunk and the whole thing was just the product of an overactive imagination

Edit: I've decided to shun you.