Vitiate vs. Dooku, Maul and Mace

Started by Syndicate10 pages

Originally posted by AncientPower
Accept your trash arguments? Nah.

Darth Traya who has better Force feats than Dooku is fodder? Nice logic.

Dooku's best lightning feats are killing Ventress and a couple of mercs, amped Nyriss produced Sith lightning capable of incinerating Imperial Guards and strong Force users yet hindered Meetra tanked it.

Oh and someone who is quite possibly KotOR's most skilled swordsman isn't going to be a joke against anyone short of Sidious tiers.

But hey good job at jumping the gun as per usual, they are all more skilled than her but no way are they considerably stronger than her in the Force, neither do they even approach Revan's tier.

Revan's best feats are collapsing stone columns and bridges along with breaking through the force defenses of Satele Shan and company. Impressive and perhaps even warranting him being on the teams level of power but none of those feats suggest he is a tier or more above them. Novel Revan does not seem to have any feats on their level aside from redirecting Nyriss's lightning which ( to me at least ) is debatable in its applicable uses.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Accept your trash arguments? Nah.

Darth Traya who has better Force feats than Dooku is fodder? Nice logic.

Dooku's best lightning feats are killing Ventress and a couple of mercs, amped Nyriss produced Sith lightning capable of incinerating Imperial Guards and strong Force users yet hindered Meetra tanked it.

Oh and someone who is quite possibly KotOR's most skilled swordsman isn't going to be a joke against anyone short of Sidious tiers.

But hey good job at jumping the gun as per usual, they are all more skilled than her but no way are they considerably stronger than her in the Force, neither do they even approach Revan's tier.

The only one making trash arguments is you 😂. Maybe you should re-read my post where I asked for you to post examples of her offensive force abilities, instead of lowballing Dooku's:

Originally posted by carthage
And? What offensive powers does she have that surpass Dooku's or Mace's feats with telekinesis?

You know how to respond to a comparison, right? I also never made the claim that they approach Revan in the force (Dooku does ), but nice putting words in my mouth 👆.

But I accept your concession that you have neither any comparable offensive force showings for Surik or skill feats that compare to Mace or Dooku 👆

Also being the most skilled Swordsmen in the History of the Jedi order per canon >> being the best of an era in your opinion. I'm also laughing at the idea of her being as skilled as Revan as well

Originally posted by Syndicate
Maybe I missed something in your respect thread. Or maybe some of the feats you listed on there that I considered game mechanics you don't? *Shrug*

Well, even simply discussing TK for his Revan Reborn incarnation:

> downpouring approx. forty asteroids with mere gestures in midst of battle.
> hurling Vitiate on his ass with an attack so powerful it sent Revan staggering.
> instantly ripping down stone archways and blowing open enormous doors.

The notion that Dooku or Windu can do the same for the first two is pretty lolworthy.

Originally posted by carthage
And? What offensive powers does she have that surpass Dooku's or Mace's feats with telekinesis?

Fodder duelists not fodder force users, Traya hasn't even got a single lightsaber duel under her belt against anyone on par with who was listed.

Lol I didn't even claim that Meetra surpassed them, at all, merely that they don't surpass her in terms of Force ability by any significant degrees.

But feel free to try and claim they fodderize her and make her a joke, your massive PT hard-on isn't showing at all.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Revan's best feats are collapsing stone columns and bridges along with breaking through the force defenses of Satele Shan and company. Impressive and perhaps even warranting being the teams level but none of those feats suggest he is a tier or more above them.

Ripping through the Force barriers of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and the Emperor's Wrath (or Hero of Tython) four times certainly puts Revan a tier above Windu or Dooku in the Force.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol I didn't even claim that Meetra surpassed them, at all, merely that they don't surpass her in terms of Force ability by any significant degrees.

But feel free to try and claim they fodderize her and make her a joke, your massive PT hard-on isn't showing at all.

I never claim that they'd fodderize her blockhead. I asked you to show me what she has that makes her more powerful and or is comparable to their showings. You posted nothing of substance as usual to support your point

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, even simply discussing TK for his Revan Reborn incarnation:

> downpouring approx. forty asteroids with mere gestures in midst of battle.
> hurling Vitiate on his ass with an attack so powerful it sent Revan staggering.
> instantly ripping down stone archways and blowing open enormous doors.

The notion that Dooku or Windu can do the same for the first two is pretty lolworthy.

I'm speaking of his novel incarnation and everything up to that point but since you want to seemingly compare RR with the team...

The asteroids themselves were stationary and thus had no weight resistance. Your respect threads state that he hurled them to the ground with such force that they shattered to dust. This I firmly believe to be a game mechanic considering it would have been more difficult to place in shattered pieces of asteroid all over the fight area and the various physics that would go with such a debris filled field.

I honestly can't measure this feat since I lack knowledge on Vitiate past his introduction in the novel and even in the novel given how long ago I read it. Along with this I should probably inform you beforehand I do not see a force user breaking through another force user's defenses to be as great of a feat as some do.

Maybe I should rephrase. I meant mediocre in comparison to the higher tier TK feats of Vader/Dooku/Mace/Maul level characters.

So whilst weakened tanking lightning stronger than any of Dooku's unamped FL showings isn't substantial? Fantastic logic.

Withstanding the 'vast' TK and FLS powers of Traya in a geyser of DS energy and defeating her is also probably an even better feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ripping through the Force barriers of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and the Emperor's Wrath (or Hero of Tython) four times certainly puts Revan a tier above Windu or Dooku in the Force.

I don't believe it does tbh. I think that breaking through force defenses while a good showing does not put a character on the level of power as the character who's defenses they broke. I may be incorrect in this opinion but I've seen the same thing argued for Krayt when he broke through Cade's defenses and I just can't bring myself to agree to this sort of logic, especially when I see characters with little to no feats doing this to characters with higher end feats and the feats of the more powerful character being applied to the one who broke through said character's defenses.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So whilst weakened tanking lightning stronger than any of Dooku's unamped FL showings isn't substantial? Fantastic logic.

Withstanding the 'vast' TK and FLS powers of Traya in a geyser of DS energy and defeating her is also probably an even better feat.

She was knocked on her ass, she didn't "tank it" and Dooku's lightning is at least more quantifiable off nexus than Nyriss who lacks feats suggesting she can replicate her lightning's potency of Dromund Kaas 👆.

And what if Traya couldn't afflict her on DK, Meetra has no offensive showings suggesting she'd even bother Dooku. Whereas, he can push her around or send her flying ALA Nyriss with lightning at the very least. I'm still waiting for your feats to suggest she's on Dooku's/Mace's level.

She tanked the worst of the lightning with a hastily thrown up barrier and was knocked over by the momentum:

Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.
-SWTOR: Revan

Nyriss' unamped FL has zero relevance, the feat being presented is weakened Meetra being capable of blocking the worst of Nyriss' Force lightning with a Force barrier. Lightning which only some seconds earlier charred and husked two guards before they could even scream, something Dooku cannot replicate without his own amp.

Darth Traya had 'vast telekinetic powers' and had mastery of the Dark Side and Sorcery that Dooku has never replicated. Including but not limited to Force draining four Jedi High Council members with ease, one of which Kavar, was described as 'extremely powerful' in the Force.

The asteroids themselves were stationary and thus had no weight resistance.

I never understood this argument.

Firstly, the asteroids were not stationary. They were freely moving around. However, they were stuck in a "zone" above the Inner Sanctum in which gravity did not pull down on them, thus allowing them to basically appear to float. However, the field they are in clearly prevents the asteroids from escaping the said field, so Revan ripping the asteroids through that "zone" is enormously impressive given its specific purpose was to make sure the asteroids don't escape.

Next, even once he rips it from this zone that is designed to prevent something like that from happening, he still has to manipulate the falling asteroids in the midst of combat. And by the looks of it, he even manipulates the speed of which they are falling. He does this with simply gestures (forty times) while in combat against four of the greatest warriors in the galaxy.

Your respect threads state that he hurled them to the ground with such force that they shattered to dust. This I firmly believe to be a game mechanic considering it would have been more difficult to place in shattered pieces of asteroid all over the fight area and the various physics that would go with such a debris filled field.

It's possible, but given what we know about Rakata' technology and how incredible and durable it is, I wouldn't simply dismiss it.

Also, the game makers could have easily did similar effects to when Oric Traless collapsed portions of a ceiling while in a flashpoint, but they didn't.

I honestly can't measure this feat since I lack knowledge on Vitiate past his introduction in the novel and even in the novel given how long ago I read it.

He's a Sith Emperor who has lived for hundreds of years that has the combined power of eight thousand Sith Lords. He is described as "a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side."

Maybe I should rephrase. I meant mediocre in comparison to the higher tier TK feats of Vader/Dooku/Mace/Maul level characters.

Yeah, that claim is laughable.

I don't believe it does tbh. I think that breaking through force defenses while a good showing does not put a character on the level of power as the character who's defenses they broke. I may be incorrect in this opinion but I've seen the same thing argued for Krayt when he broke through Cade's defenses and I just can't bring myself to agree to this sort of logic, especially when I see characters with little to no feats doing this to characters with higher end feats and the feats of the more powerful character being applied to the one who broke through said character's defenses.

Based on? You haven't provided any evidence that it isn't an indication of power. The only example you cited further proves my point. Darth Krayt was an immensely powerful figure capable of harming ancient entities that can destroy entire cities with the Force. He's undeniably far more powerful than Cade Skywalker, so obviously he's going to be telekinetically dominating him.

Completely agreeing with Ant.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Completely agreeing with Ant.

You're beginning to shape up, tbh.

AP has become a great asset to the cause, indeed.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She tanked the worst of the lightning with a hastily thrown up barrier and was knocked over by the momentum:

Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.
-SWTOR: Revan

I know that quote so what, she was still sent reeling afterward. If she tanked it she would've weathered it and withstood the full effects, she got knocked on her ass.

Nyriss' unamped FL has zero relevance, the feat being presented is weakened Meetra being capable of blocking the worst of Nyriss' Force lightning with a Force barrier, amplified lightning which seconds earlied charred and husked two guards before they could even scream, something Dooku cannot replicate without his own amp.

Except that Nyriss has no feats off of DK to suggest her lightning is as strong as Dooku's, and that his lightning wouldn't have the same effect of knocking her on her ass and presenting him with an opportunity to kill her ala Ventress

Darth Traya had 'vast telekinetic powers' and had mastery of the Dark Side and Sorcery that Dooku has never replicated. Including but not limited to Force draining four Jedi High Council members, one of which Kavar, was described as 'extremely powerful' in the Force. [/B]

Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, and Quinlan Vos are all more powerful than the individuals you listed, and Dooku has ragdolled them, ko'ed them with lightning, and taken them out. As a duelist Dooku integrates his force powers you know in the middle of a fight, whereas, Traya just killed them while they were standing still? He doesn't need to "stomp her" all he needs to do is offset her with a push or lightning, and then gut her with his lightsaber.

To be fair winebottle, the fact Nyriss was on a dark side nexus doesn't affect Surik's feat at all - only makes it look more impressive.

Though, I agree that she's not on the same level as Maul / Mace / Dooku. 👆 She's also not a pushover either and has had her fair share of nice accolades.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I never understood this argument.

Firstly, the asteroids were not stationary. They were freely moving around. However, they were stuck in a "zone" above the Inner Sanctum in which gravity did not pull down on them, thus allowing them to basically appear to float. However, the field they are in clearly prevents the asteroids from escaping the said field, so Revan ripping the asteroids through that "zone" is enormously impressive given its specific purpose was to make sure the asteroids don't escape.

Next, even once he rips it from this zone that is designed to prevent something like that from happening, he still has to manipulate the falling asteroids in the midst of combat. And by the looks of it, he even manipulates the speed of which they are falling. He does this with simply gestures (forty times) while in combat against four of the greatest warriors in the galaxy.

It's possible, but given what we know about Rakata' technology and how incredible and durable it is, I wouldn't simply dismiss it.

Also, the game makers could have easily did similar effects to when Oric Traless collapsed portions of a ceiling while in a flashpoint, but they didn't.

He's a Sith Emperor who has lived for hundreds of years that has the combined power of eight thousand Sith Lords. He is described as "a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side."

Yeah, that claim is laughable.

Based on? You haven't provided any evidence that it isn't an indication of power. The only example you cited further proves my point. Darth Krayt was an immensely powerful figure capable of harming ancient entities that can destroy entire cities with the Force. He's undeniably far more powerful than Cade Skywalker, so obviously he's going to be telekinetically dominating him. [/B]

The zone you speak of would not need to exert much pressure to keep them from escaping it. Since they seem to freely float as you stated it seems as if the pressure exerted on them is negligible. Again the speed at which the asteroids come down I believe to be a game mechanic considering they would probably rather not add in a scene where Revan calls them all down one at a time over a long period of time. It simply takes too much time away from the actual battle. Rather then that it appears as if they all fall at once instantly. I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree over that one.

I know that. I'm talking about the force feats he possessed by that point.

I don't believe it is.

Like Savage breaking through both Dooku and Ventress's force defenses at the same time.

I'm hitting the sack so apologies if I don't respond to you.

Originally posted by carthage
I know that quote so what, she was still sent reeling afterward. If she tanked it she would've weathered it and withstood the full effects, she got knocked on her ass.

Yet she still blocked the worst of it with her hastily thrown up Force barrier, if she hadn't she would have been husked herself.

Originally posted by carthage
Except that Nyriss has no feats off of DK to suggest her lightning is as strong as Dooku's, and that his lightning wouldn't have the same effect of knocking her on her ass and presenting him with an opportunity to kill her ala Ventress.

Are you having an off day? This is a feat for Meetra Surik, whom was weak at the time. Arguing that Nyriss' lightning off of a nexus is featless is totally beyond the point. More on the point of Meetra being weakened, if she had been on a neutral setting she likely could have tanked it outright.

Originally posted by carthage
Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, and Quinlan Vos are all more powerful than the individuals you listed, and Dooku has ragdolled them, ko'ed them with lightning, and taken them out. As a duelist Dooku integrates his force powers you know in the middle of a fight, whereas, Traya just killed them while they were standing still? He doesn't need to "stomp her" all he needs to do is offset her with a push or lightning, and then gut her with his lightsaber.

He killed a defenseless Ventress with lightning and has TK'd the others, fantastic. Traya drained all four of those prepared Jedi Masters with ease, not forgetting that she repeatedly TK'd their attempts to engage her just beforehand.

What feats does Dooku have that compare to this?