Vitiate vs. Dooku, Maul and Mace

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yet she still blocked the worst of it with her hastily thrown up Force barrier, if she hadn't she would have been husked herself.

Are you having an off day? This is a feat for Meetra Surik, whom was weak at the time. Arguing that Nyriss' lightning off of a nexus is featless is totally beyond the point. More on the point of Meetra being weakened, if she had been on a neutral setting she likely could have tanked it outright.

I'm not getting how its relevant? She evidently hasn't got enough strength to avoid being thrown back, so her barrier isn't exactly fullproof. It isn't 'beyond the point' because it establishes that her barrier is only good enough to soak up some damage, but she can't prevent herself from going airborne. So it looks like she soaks up his lightning, and goes flying which means Dooku can stab her and win his fight 👆

He killed a defenseless Ventress with lightning and has TK'd the others, fantastic. Traya drained all four of those prepared Jedi Masters with ease, not forgetting that she repeatedly TK'd their attempts to engage her just beforehand.

And dominating featless Jedi isn't beyond Dooku's scope of abilities with his force powers either. Fantastic.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dooku-darth-tyranus-respect-thread/95276/

Because it was thrown up instantly and wasn't a prep'd barrier, furthermore her barrier would be significantly stronger in a neutral setting. Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to husk Force Users in the first place and thus isn't going to have as strong an effect.

Lol they aren't featless and haven't been since the day they were introduced to canon. They are 'extremely powerful', having achieved the highest mastery in the Force and have been accredited with numerous more accolades. Her Force draining them simultaneously with ease after they had been given ample prep time is not a feat Dooku has replicated.

I am assuming you have no further argument to make considering how weak that one was so just save me the time and concede that Dooku and Meetra are comparable in Force prowess.

Originally posted by AncientPower
[B]Because it was thrown up instantly and wasn't a prep'd barrier, furthermore her barrier would be significantly stronger in a neutral setting.

Proof it'd be stronger in a neutral setting? You also haven't shown anything to prove she's on par with Windu or Dooku in offensive abilities, so LOL at you avoiding my initial point to begin with 👆. The feat speaks for itself she'll go flying when his lightning makes contact 👆

Lol they aren't featless and haven't been since the day they were introduced to canon. They are 'extremely powerful', having achieved the highest mastery in the Force and have been accredited with numerous more accolades. Her Force draining them simultaneously with ease after they had been given ample prep time is not a feat Dooku has replicated.

Then pleast post their feats that suggest they're on par with Kenobi, Vos, or Ventress in power. Feats >> Accolades. Because Dooku has dominated individuals with actual showings, and so what if she knows drain? This is about the Exile and her offensive force abilities and how they'd affect Dooku. Stop avoiding the point and show me something that suggests parity for her telekinesis compared to Dooku

I am assuming you have no further argument to make considering how weak that one was so just save me the time and concede.

Right after you show me even a single TK feat for The Exile that compares to Mace, Dooku, or Maul 👆. You posted a decent barrier feat (which wasn't fullproof) and that's all. If she hasn't got any TK feats then just concede the point

Originally posted by carthage
Proof it'd be stronger in a neutral setting?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yet she still blocked the worst of it with her hastily thrown up Force barrier, if she hadn't she would have been husked herself.

That doesn't really mean shit. Nyriss was wrecking her at every turn with back up.

Are you having an off day? This is a feat for Meetra Surik, whom was weak at the time. Arguing that Nyriss' lightning off of a nexus is featless is totally beyond the point. More on the point of Meetra being weakened, if she had been on a neutral setting she likely could have tanked it outright.

She tanked some lightning so that puts her on Dooku's level? You can't be seriously arguing this.

He killed a defenseless Ventress with lightning and has TK'd the others, fantastic. Traya drained all four of those prepared Jedi Masters with ease, not forgetting that she repeatedly TK'd their attempts to engage her just beforehand.

What feats does Dooku have that compare to this?

1. There were only 3 masters (lol at you trying to frame deleted game scenes as canon)
2. Dooku pwned 2 of the most skilled Nightsisters and Ventress at once with a TK/lightning combo
3. Dooku effortlessly TKed Tiptree into his blade
4. Dooku effortlessly KO'ed Bulq with a short burst of lightning.

Not to mention fighting on par with the most powerful Jedi Master in the history of the Old Republic.

Originally posted by carthage
Proof it'd be stronger in a neutral setting? You also haven't shown anything to prove she's on par with Windu or Dooku in offensive abilities, so LOL at you avoiding my initial point to begin with 👆. The feat speaks for itself she'll go flying when his lightning makes contact. 👆

Do I have to educate you on the effects an extremely powerful Dark Side nexus has to Light Side adherents such as Surik? Apparently.

Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn and Ben Skywalker suffered migraines, total Dark Side corruption, and loss of a connection to the Force whilst on a Dromund Kaas that had become far less potent after thousands of years.

Meetra Surik would be effected in this manner as well, likely to a degree on parity with Jaina's issue. Consisering how all of Meetra's power comes from finding Enlightenment and heavy self-augmentation the scenario would be even worse for her.

Ergo, Meetra's Force power and by extension Force Barrier would be much more potent.

Originally posted by carthage
Then please post their feats that suggest they're on par with Kenobi, Vos, or Ventress in power. Feats >> Accolades. Because Dooku has dominated individuals with actual showings, and so what if she knows drain? This is about the Exile and her offensive force abilities and how they'd affect Dooku. Stop avoiding the point and show me something that suggests parity for her telekinesis compared to Dooku.

Their feats include surviving Katarr's destruction and thus Darth Nihilus, being the most powerful Jedi in the Order bar Revan, Surik, Alek, Kreia and Atris in an era of Jedi where the battle experience and training was most profound. There are other feats of course but anyone who played the game should know them.

Your argument that they are fodder featless Jedi is safely debunked.

Originally posted by carthage
Right after you show me even a single TK feat for The Exile that compares to Mace, Dooku, or Maul 👆. You posted a decent barrier feat (which wasn't fullproof) and that's all. If she hasn't got any TK feats then just concede the point

This is a debate of over-all prowess in the Force, trying to play the PT exposure card in this manner is pretty pathetic tbh. If you must demand TK feats, Meetra is apparently capable of destroying Air Towers with her TK, one shotting dozens of Kinrath and more.

That is besides the point yet again though, all you have managed to do so far is prove my point by being incapable of proving Dooku is stronger than Traya or Nyriss. Meetra surpassed the former and would be a match for the latter on neutral ground.

So again, prove that Dooku > Meetra in the Force, you haven't at all so far.

@AP: The three Jedi Masters from Dantooine weren't on Katarr, tbh.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That doesn't really mean shit. Nyriss was wrecking her at every turn with back up.

Yes it does, Meetra was weakened considerably whereas Nyriss was amped, whom abused her amplified augmentation to out-speed Meetra.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
She tanked some lightning so that puts her on Dooku's level? You can't be seriously arguing this.

She tanked lightning with greater strength than Dooku's has shown, I.E. instantly husking two men with one arc and disintegrating powerful Force Users after.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1. There were only 3 masters (lol at you trying to frame deleted game scenes as canon)
2. Dooku pwned 2 of the most skilled Nightsisters and Ventress at once with a TK/lightning combo
3. Dooku effortlessly TKed Tiptree into his blade
4. Dooku effortlessly KO'ed Bulq with a short burst of lightning.

1.Cut content is considered noteworthy around here, if you don't like that take it up with mods.
2.Featless nightsisters with no visible connection to the Force and his own apprentice? Well shit. *Waves white flag*
3.Nice.
4.Still not comparable to disintegrating Force Users as powerful as Meetra(potentially), Scourge(potentially) or Nyriss herself whilst they had first degree barriers up.

Also the Ventress killing feat was better and he still only killed her without her defenses up, whereas Nyriss disintegrates powerful f*ckers of Ventress tier and far higher with prep'd barriers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not to mention fighting on par with the most powerful Jedi Master in the history of the Old Republic.

No he most certainly was not.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@AP: The three Jedi Masters from Dantooine weren't on Katarr, tbh.

I thought it was specifically mentioned that Kavar was there, I'll have to check.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I thought it was specifically mentioned that Kavar was there, I'll have tp check.

Hmm. I'll have to check that properly, nice catch though.

Do I have to educate you on the effects an extremely powerful Dark Side nexus has to Light Side adherents such as Surik? Apparently.

Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn and Ben Skywalker suffered migraines, total Dark Side corruption, and loss of a connection to the Force whilst on a Dromund Kaas that had become far less potent after thousands of years.

Meetra Surik would be effected in this manner as well, likely to a degree on parity with Jaina's issue. Consisering how all of Meetra's power comes from finding Enlightenment and heavy self-augmentation the scenario would be even worse for her.

Ergo, Meetra's Force power and by extension Force Barrier would be much more potent.

The only thing you've proven is that her barrier can absorb some nexus lightning and send her flying. You haven't shown anything that puts her offensive force abilities on Dooku other than pulling an assumption out of nothing, we're already past the barrier feat. The fact you keep repeating it ad nauseam due to lack her tangible offensive force feats prove you've got nothing to stand on. What does her force augmentation have to do with anything?, she has no speed feats and wouldn't be boosted in a level comparable to Dooku and she'd get humiliated in a duel.

Their feats include surviving Katarr's destruction and thus Darth Nihilus, being the most powerful Jedi in the Order bar Revan, Surik, Alek, Kreia and Atris in an era of Jedi where the battle experience and training was most profound. There are other feats of course but anyone who played the game should know them.

Surviving the destruction of a planet isn't a combat feat, derp. I asked what showings in the force do those Jedi masters have that indicate they wouldn't be stomped by Dooku and or are more powerful than Bulq, Ventress, Kenobi, or Vos.

Your argument that they are fodder featless Jedi is safely debunked.

Not really?

This is a debate of over-all prowess in the Force, trying to play the PT exposure card in this manner is pretty pathetic tbh. If you must demand TK feats, Meetra is apparently capable of destroying Air Towers with her TK, one shotting dozens of Kinrath and more.

So she can destroy non force sensitives and destroy turrets, that's not really above Kenobi's level in telekinesis (imploding Durge, bringing down massive trees, bringing down massive portions of metal ceilings/durasteel ceiling placements etc). Dooku has accolades that call him among the most powerful force users in History, fought evenly with Yoda in the force on Geonosis, and per accolades is one of the Greatest swordsmen produced by the Jedi Order.

I'm not seeing anything that surpasses dominating Bulq, Vos, Kenobi, Ventress, koing AOTC Anakin, choking/dominating Anakin with lightning, or matching Yoda in the force. Or even his more rudimentary TK abilities of collapsing bridges, raining down tons of boulders on Tholme with a gesture, lifting obelisks that weigh tons.

She can't harm him with her weak telekinetic abilities tbh, whereas, Dooku has already torn apart individuals comparable to her in power

Originally posted by carthage
The only thing you've proven is that her barrier can absorb some nexus lightning and send her flying. You haven't shown anything that puts her offensive force abilities on Dooku other than pulling an assumption out of nothing, we're already past the barrier feat. The fact you keep repeating it ad nauseam due to lack her tangible offensive force feats prove you've got nothing to stand on. What does her force augmentation have to do with anything?, she has no speed feats and wouldn't be boosted in a level comparable to Dooku and she'd get humiliated in a duel.

Lol she did not get sent flying, she was knocked over by the momentum. You are dismissing this feat only because it proves that Surik's full strength barrier could absorb lightning stronger than Dooku's own. Concession accepted.

Meetra Surik isn't an offensive type, so her not having a trove of TK feats is to be expected. On the other hand her other feats which you appear to be desperate to dismiss are still proving that in a raw Force power contest Surik at least is comparable to him and at best can take whatever he throws at her.

If you really want to go down this road however, Meetra Surik is so naturally strong in the technique Sever Force that she was warned as a mere apprentice against using it. As a Jedi Master her ability in this technique would be exceptional.

Also internal amplifications and passive boosts to herself and her allies are Surik's bread and butter, not overtly offensive displays. Dooku would in no manner humiliate the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik, a high level master of multiple forms considered by Drew to be more skilled than even Revan. Her Juyo mastery specfically would cause Dooku to actually fight for his win at least.

Originally posted by carthage
I asked what showings in the force do those Jedi masters have that indicate they wouldn't be stomped by Dooku and or are more powerful than Bulq, Ventress, Kenobi, or Vos.

Whilst they lack exposure and very many feats, what they have done and achieved speaks for itself:

Lonna Vash: Surviving and escaping Darth Sion, an unkillable Sith Warrior with decades of Jedi killing experience.

Kavar: fought in the Mando Wars and was praised as the Oder's greatest by the Mandalorians. Extremely powerful in the Force and a high tier master of multiple lightsaber techniques.

Vrook: Stated to be one of the Order's most venerable and revered Masters, praised by Bastila as one of the Order's most powerful and wise members.

Zez-Kai Ell: The least notable but considered strong enough to be nigh uncatchable by G0-T0's best hired hunters.

All four of them have achieved the highest mysteries of and mastery of the Force.

Likely most notable however is that all four of them are supposedly on terms with Lucien Draay, a very powerful Jedi Master in his own right.

Originally posted by carthage
Not really?

Basically, you made them out to be fodder and attempted a lowball of Traya's feat.

Originally posted by carthage
So she can destroy non force sensitives and destroy turrets, that's not really above Kenobi's level in telekinesis (imploding Durge, bringing down massive trees, bringing down massive portions of metal ceilings/durasteel ceiling placements etc). Dooku has accolades that call him among the most powerful force users in History, fought evenly with Yoda in the force on Geonosis, and per accolades is one of the Greatest swordsmen produced by the Jedi Order.

Destroy air towers actually, not that offensive TK displays are her main attraction in the first place. Meetra Surik has accolades calling her a legendary Jedi and amongst the greatest heroes in the Order's history. Also, Dooku lost he was by no means 'even' with a Jedi Master as powerful as ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by carthage
I'm not seeing anything that surpasses dominating Bulq, Vos, Kenobi, Ventress, koing AOTC Anakin, choking/dominating Anakin with lightning, or matching Yoda in the force. Or even his more rudimentary TK abilities of collapsing bridges, raining down tons of boulders on Tholme with a gesture, lifting obelisks that weigh tons.

You mean you are simply diverting the argument away from feats you know you have no answer for? Good to see you admitting it.

Originally posted by carthage
She can't harm him with her weak telekinetic abilities tbh, whereas, Dooku has already torn apart individuals comparable to her in power

Lol, do you even remember what we were debating about? Which is Dooku, Mace, and Maul being considerably more powerful in the Force than Surik, something you still haven't proved. Provide feats comparable to incinerating very powerful Force users or effortlessly draining prep'd 'extremely powerful' Jedi Masters.

Lol she did not get sent flying, she was knocked over by the momentum. You are dismissing this feat only because it proves that Surik's full strength barrier could absorb lightning stronger than Dooku's own. Concession accepted.

His lightning only needs to knock her down, it doesn't have to incinerate her but nice red herring . That also doesn't mean his telekinesis wouldn't affect her either , which you haven't refuted and Dooku has better telekinetic showings than Nyriss. His combination of telekinesis/lightning is enough to keep her on edge, and she has nothing in her showings to suggest she doesn't get blasted back as what happened with Nyriss

Meetra Surik isn't an offensive type, so her not having a trove of TK feats is to be expected. On the other hand her other feats which you appear to be desperate to dismiss are still priving that in a raw Force power contest Surik at least is comparable to him and at best can take whatever he throws at her.

A barrier feat where she gets blown back and which says nothing about her ability to soak up superior telekinesis doesn't make her more powerful. The feats you listed don't put her above Kenobi let alone Dooku. As for her augmentative abilities that's nice, but as she's more of a support force user none of them are of any use against a duelist/offensive force user on Dookus's level. And no Revan besting Malak in spite of being hindered and Malak being one of the most powerful Sith lords of all time is a feat beyond Meetra.

When has she used Sever force in combat, or on an individual on par with Dooku?

Random bullshit about Jedi masters without any mention of force feats

The only person that even compares to Dooku is Lucien Draay, and his showings in the force surpass Meetra's as well

😬

Basically, you made them out to be fodder and attempted a lowball of Traya's feat.

How am I "lowballing them" when escaping Darth Sion, surviving the Mandalorian wars, and being "very powerful" have nothing to do with their actual showings in the force 😂

Destroy air towers actually, not that offensive TK displays are her main attraction in the first place. Meetra Surik has accolades calling her a legendary Jedi and amongst the greatest heroes in the Order's history. Also, Dooku lost he was by no means 'even' with a Jedi Master as powerful as ROTS Sidious.

Canon begs to differ 👆

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powerss, neither besting the other.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Count Dooku and Master Yoda engaging in a titanic struggle of Force powers on Geonosis.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

None of what you listed is comparable to Dooku's accolades:

He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history, yet at the age of seventy Dooku's principles would no longer allow him to serve a Republic in which political power was for sale to the highest bidder.-Revenge of the Sith

-Credit to ShootingNova

You mean you are simply diverting the argument away from feats you know you have no answer for? Good to see you admitting it.

Considering fighting evenly with Yoda in the force surpasses anything a loser like the Exile could ever accomplish your bravado is amusing 👆

Lol, do you even remember what we were debating about? Which is Dooku, Mace, and Maul being considerably more powerful in the Force than Surik, something you still haven't proved. Provide feats comparable to incinerating very powerful Force users or effortlessly draining prep'd 'extremely powerful' Jedi Masters.

I haven't had a chance to post anything for Mace or Maul yet lol. I think I've already proved the point for Dooku though 👆

Originally posted by McP
Both, Dooku and Mace are comperable (or a bit superior) to Revan.

For reference, check this confrontation between a Jedi Strike Team and Vitiate:

YouTube video

Vitiate overwhelmed the entire Jedi Strike Team with his Force powers (Jedi were armed with Lightsabers but even these weapons proved to be useless and likely ended-up disintegrated). These Jedi are (officially) among the most powerful of the Order and damn good duelists. However, their theoretical advantages paled in front of Vitiate's command of the Dark Side and sheer raw power.

Originally posted by McP
Also, Mace and Dooku would give Sidious hell on their own.

Vitiate have broad range of offensive options to consider. I doubt that Windu have an answer to every option.

Originally posted by McP
They would beeat Vitiate who is inferior to Sidious,

Originally posted by McP
and adding Maul only tips the scale. Team every single time.

Heck, Vitiate may simply break the entire Strike Team (or) Dooku and Maul (at minimum) and use them as pwns against Windu (if the Jedi somehow manages to resist). For reference, Mother Talzin managed to possess Dooku, therefore Vitiate (who have relatively superior telepathic abilities) won't find it challenging to break Dooku and Maul at minimum. Even Windu lacks showings and experience in the matters of countering powerful telepathic powers and therefore vulnerable.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I honestly can't measure this feat since I lack knowledge on Vitiate past his introduction in the novel and even in the novel given how long ago I read it. Along with this I should probably inform you beforehand I do not see a force user breaking through another force user's defenses to be as great of a feat as some do.

For overview of Vitiate's evolution and power progression: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/power-progression-and-evolution-of-emperor-vitiate/105016/

Vitiate's greatest showing: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-at-planet-ziost/105050/

😍

@Legend

All depend of the power-scaling. Vitiate has superior showings to Sidious and Yoda, due to being character from a game (almost all of games' characters have superior showings to the others).

Books, reference books were always some kind of retcons for that.
Naga Sadow was a man, many people (espiecially in polish' forums) believed, that he could destroys plantes whenever he wanted. At this moment, he can destroy unstabe stars and needed crystals do do it. he doesn't have nothing, that would place him in top 10, possibly top20 strongest Sith ever.

I see Yoda and Sidious as two strongest guys from their era, but they aren't undefeatable. I believe that one mistake, may cost them life. When Sidious attacked Maul and Opress with his FL, they were capable of blocking it. Savage was overhelmd, but Maul use that moment when Sidious had to split his attention to both of them, and catch him via his own TK. Sidious was able to free himself, but against Stronger enemies, like Vader or Dooku (in Savage's place) he would be doomed.
Amped Talzin was more or less equal to Sidious. When Dooku (weakened after Sidious' FL) came into fight, they quickly overhelm her, and forced onto deep defense (despite that she received support from Maul). Dooku's FL was a factor in that case.
Dooku on his own could compete with Yoda (but obviously wouldn't be able to beat him). Amped Dooku was nearly Yoda's equal.
Mace could compete with Sidious and even held his own against his FL.

Those three would crush Vitiate. If he would TK one of them, others would catch him off-guard. If he would try to use his FL (which is inferior to Sidious', I believe) against them, it would be easily blocked and they would counter with their TKs.
And he is outclassed by everyone of them in terms of dueling.

Some of the posts in this thread are truly depressing. Why is lightsaber skill even being mentioned here? Being a better duelist than Revan has no importance here as even he would be able to kill Vitiate if he closed the gap. Force prowess and TP resistance are all that matters here and the team falls short in both categories.

@Ant

As surprising as it is, I completely agree with your point. 👆

Originally posted by Sinious
Some of the posts in this thread are truly depressing. Why is lightsaber skill even being mentioned here? Being a better duelist than Revan has no importance here as even he would be able to kill Vitiate if he closed the gap. Force prowess and TP resistance are all that matters here and the team falls short in both categories.

@Ant

As surprising as it is, I completely agree with your point. 👆

Don't look at me. I was simply comparing novel Revan's force powers with the teams and then he started bringing out RR feats on me and now we're on a debate about that.

I think a better discussion could b held if Vitiate is not allowed to use his TP. I believe there are people who think he would still win and some people think he would lose even with his TP attack so I'd enjoy seeing how that would go.