Black Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, definitely not.

They are not trying to enforce a policy change via fear and threat of violence.

Some who claim to be members have threatened violence though. Ever see the video of the black dude harassing an indian guy who owns a convenience store as to why there are no blacks working there? He then threatens to burn the place down.

That is basically the purpose of protests.

Martin Luthor King's sit-ins were for the exact same reasons: Namely, be a large enough annoyance than people pay attention to the problem, see the problem, and recognize the way to stop the annoyances is to stop the problem.

Except this day and age if you piss people off you don't get them on your side. Your only statement is "I'm obnoxious as all f*ck, care about the issues I care about!".

I mean, people do this because non-violent protests of these matters work.

So they should go chant in restaurants in the ghetto's as well about how black lives matter.

Because the situation is bad enough, and being quiet about it, or politely asking/informing people, hasn't worked.

It's like, ever had a problem that your (boss/landlord/whatever) absolutely won't pay attention to or fix no matter how many times you tell them, until you start really leaning on them hard and making a bother until they get off their butts and fix it?

Except if I got obnoxious as all hell with my boss I'd be fired. So to me your example kind of shot you in the foot. You want to get your boss to pay attention? It's all about HOW you do that if you want to keep your job, you don't just act obnoxious and loud as hell, do you feel any boss would not fire someone for that? Don't you feel that a boss might not give two shits about the problems this person is whining about because of the manner in which they are bringing it up?

So you could be loud and your boss sure as hell might hear you, but it doesn't mean they'll give a shit what you are complaining over due to the way you went about it.

Being obnoxious is, arguably, the point of a protest. If it's not obnoxious, it can simply be ignored. If the problem can be solved without doing so, then it almost never needs a protest to begin with.

So again I ask why is it only the police protests are obnoxious as all hell? Explain this to me in a way that makes sense. Why can't they be obnoxious as hell over black on black crime?

Now, we have a situation where people in the black community are dying to cops 3:1 over white people- more in specific areas- and cops have a notable history of escalating conflicts with black suspects in a way they don't white suspects.

You do know those specific areas you talk about tend to have more black criminals then whites, right?

that they're being obnoxious, you do know about the problem, and now you can decide which is the worst thing, some people being obnoxious to put pressure, or bad behavior leading to regular deaths.

No, I knew about the problem long before they were obnoxious as f*ck actually. We ALL did unless we've been living in a damn cage.

That you even know the problem is a success, because even if you come in to it somewhat annoyed at them, that sure beats you not knowing about it at all.

Fine, but then be consistent with being obnoxious as hell. Don't just be obnoxious over a white cop, but black on black crime they just stand on the street corners and hold up friggin signs. A cop kills a black guy? Oh lordy, time to interrupt shit. All I ask is that they be consistent in their outrage. Yet there are *always* excuses for why they can't or won't do that. Always. I have never really seen anyone go "yep this is a good point, I feel they should try to protest both things". It is always "well it's easier to enact change with the cops".

You want to know the real reason they don't have as much outrage? It's not the ease in which they can affect change. The real reason? Because this type of behavior among blacks in their neighborhoods is par for the god damn course. That is the sickest part of all. It's not out of the ordinary to them, it's not a strange occurrence. It's part of the daily lives they cultivated for themselves in their communities. Little kid shot in the face by a gang banger? Meh, must be Tuesday..or Wednesday, or Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday, or Sunday, or any day in Chicago.

Maybe if I didn't live in a city so utterly infested with gang banging thugs I could see things differently, but nope..*checks all the deaths that happened here in the last few days* Yeah, definitely nope. I see evidence on a daily basis that nah..black lives don't actually matter to these people.

Originally posted by Surtur

You do know those specific areas you talk about tend to have more black criminals then whites, right?

Not 3:1!

And 3:1 is national average. Cleveland is around 5:1, for example, with a 5:4 populace (51% black, 41% white).

It doesn't match the percentage-who-commit-crimes number, is the point. It is disproportionately high- and a symptom of wider 'police approach black people differently'.

It's noted that the conviction rates for the same crimes is higher among blacks too. White people do marijuana in much higher proportion but get convicted for it much less, and so on.

Some who claim to be members have threatened violence though. Ever see the video of the black dude harassing an indian guy who owns a convenience store as to why there are no blacks working there? He then threatens to burn the place down.

True, there are a few bad individuals. Still, when you've got thousands of people involved and a leadership who discourages such thing, and it's a very hot-button issue for very good reason, I feel treating the entire movement because they can't control everyone is not being fair to them.

Except this day and age if you piss people off you don't get them on your side. Your only statement is "I'm obnoxious as all f*ck, care about the issues I care about!".

Except.... it seems to be working from what I've seen, not just on this topic but in general. "This day and age," doesn't seem to be any different than prior ones, people back in the 60s did, in fact, complain about 'oh, protesting like that is just going to get people mad at you!' on MLK's movement heavily- to the point where Mr. King made some famous quotes about how one of the biggest obstacles to rights is people more concerned with having them not rock the boat rather than justice- and how if they didn't rock the boat, nothing would happen.

And I'm not aware of any change in the effectiveness of protests in general.

People are talking about it and aware it exists. And "the issues," are people being killed, treated badly by the law, etc., stuff that fairly obviously looks more significant than a protest.

If someone is protesting for a reason that makes sense, don't you see how people, while annoyed, could fairly logically conclude, 'hey, maybe if we talked to the people who are doing the things which people are protesting about, and get them to stop.'

Most of these protests happen when 'Yet Another Police Officer Gets Off In Incident Where Black Suspect Died,' after all. The longer we can go without major examples of that- or the more that is obviously be done to prevent that, the fewer protests will happen. So, they give you a clear solution to remove the annoyance.

Except if I got obnoxious as all hell with my boss I'd be fired. So to me your example kind of shot you in the foot. You want to get your boss to pay attention? It's all about HOW you do that if you want to keep your job, you don't just act obnoxious and loud as hell, do you feel any boss would not fire someone for that? Don't you feel that a boss might not give two shits about the problems this person is whining about because of the manner in which they are bringing it up?

So you could be loud and your boss sure as hell might hear you, but it doesn't mean they'll give a shit what you are complaining over due to the way you went about it.

Firing isn't in the cards in this analogy, and we're talking about a case where the people in question are already being treated badly.

And by 'obnoxious,' we are talking about 'bringing it constantly until it gets done.' That's not just 'obnoxious for the heck if it,' we aren't talking bringing an airhorn to a staff meeting, we're talking about, "Hey, put your other task down and help FIX THIS."

Lesse, better analogy.... company maintenance? IT? Whatever. Point is, someone else isn't doing their job, so making waves until others sit them down and force them to do the job.

You can't fix anything unless you get people to pay attention to the problem. And a grumpy problem-fix beats the heck out of no problem fix.

So again I ask why is it only the police protests are obnoxious as all hell? Explain this to me in a way that makes sense. Why can't they be obnoxious as hell over black on black crime?

One, because it is important, solvable, and something everyone else has so we know it can be done. And because we're getting increasingly obvious evidence that, yea, this problem is large and happens all the time.

Two, "But what about other problem?" in general is not an excuse for not doing one problem, because as a society, we can do multiple things, we aren't limited, we should do multiple things.

Three, who do you protest to with 'black on black crime'? Well, you protest to... the police for not doing better community outreach efforts mainly? There's no boss there, random criminals are not someone you can protest to, and nor are gangs. It's not a company or organization or service. The closest you can get would be protesting to the police which, yea, better policing is something specifically being asked for here, trustworthy police means more people report crimes and help them, so solving this would probably help with that a fair amount anyway.

The main thing is, this is a fixable problem. It can either be fixed, or you can hear people complaining, "Why are you not supporting the fixing this? Why are you opposing fixing this? Why are you ignoring fixing this? We have a big problem and we need help dealing with it!"

Being silent about problems doesn't get them fixed. Drawing attention to it does.

And if conventional means of attention getting don't work... well, this form of protest has a long track record of working.

Fine, but then be consistent with being obnoxious as hell. Don't just be obnoxious over a white cop, but black on black crime they just stand on the street corners and hold up friggin signs. A cop kills a black guy? Oh lordy, time to interrupt shit. All I ask is that they be consistent in their outrage. Yet there are *always* excuses for why they can't or won't do that. Always. I have never really seen anyone go "yep this is a good point, I feel they should try to protest both things". It is always "well it's easier to enact change with the cops".

Seriously, the way you protest crime is going to the cops. That is what cops are for. That is why they exist, and effective good policing is very good at reducing crime.

To my knowledge, signs and protests aren't, because 'crime' isn't a group. Gangs are groups, but... going up to hardened criminals with signs is not going to have nearly the effect police officers who the non-gang locals can trust would, you know? You'd need to, well, police them, and asking civilians to do police stuff without police support, resources, and in fact them doing so being illegal, is a massively bad idea, so yea, telling civilians "just reduce crime sans cops," is a message that has issues.

If you know a great way to reduce crime without involving cops, there are many people who would love to have it, but "Why can't you solve crime without police?" is not a reasonable question, especially when everyone in the country with lower crime, lowers their crime with police.

It's not just easier to protest the police, it's the only solution I know to the crime problem too. That's really the thing, bad police- who do kill black people disproportionately to the crime rate- is a good way to rise the crime rate, good police is a good way to lower it, if that solution is there, why should people not use it?

How do you find the time to type all that, get a job..

"Except.... it seems to be working from what I've seen, not just on this topic but in general."

Being obnoxious does work, my kid uses that technique all the time. It's a childlike response to issues to incite fear/embarassment something to get noticed that generally doesn't provide the outcome you have hoped for because you have irritated the people you need to speak with.

Social media is filled with such nonsense and if someone feels good leveraging it, great but look for sheep to fall in line and not leaders.

"It's not just easier to protest the police, it's the only solution I know to the crime problem too."

Thats because your a simple person that thinks childlike behaviors solve problems.

Jeffrey Brown: How we cut youth violence in Boston by 79 percent

https://youtu.be/yeVz0rtXCmw

That man is inspirational.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
How do you find the time to type all that, get a job..

I think Q99 does work, full-time, actually. Q99 is just devoted to these types of discussions. I used to be similar a few years back. I used to work overnights so I had TONS of free time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think Q99 does work, full-time, actually. Q99 is just devoted to these types of discussions. I used to be similar a few years back. I used to work overnights so I had TONS of free time.

I dont recall asking your opinion😂

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I dont recall asking your opinion😂

😂 YES!