Starkiller vs. Vitiate

Originally posted by Sinious
Im gonna address this one last(I hope) time, Tempest.

Your funeral lol. The facts haven't changed between now and then.

Originally posted by Sinious
Lets go through this again and you tell me where you disagree(or think the text disagrees).

k

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate was put on his ass at first because he had his guard down. He had his guard down cause he diverted much of his strength on dominating Revan's mind. He diverted much of his strength on that because he assumed he could do it casually but when his attack faced resistance, he had to invest more and more into his TP attack which failed due to reasons that has no relevance when comparing power.

Lots of empty speculation here.

The text never says that Vitiate's initial effort was "casual" and that he upped the ante when facing resistance. In fact, the text never mentions any resistance on Revan's part other than the attack he used to put Vitiate on his ass.

Instead, it reads as though the attack itself simply required lots of effort from the onset and Revan put Vitiate on his ass.

{Which, coincidentally, is what Karpyshyn l8r confirmed to Intrepid37 via email: that the mindhaxx is not effortless. Which is another reason I trust my own interpretation over anyone else's.}

Originally posted by Sinious
Choosing to take care of someone by dominating their minds instead of fighting them is an indication of superiority as it is a way of dealing with them without even fighting and Revan survived the attack only because he had mastered a technique based on their past encounter. Vitiate is defined by fear of death and avoiding risk so if he attempted such an attack which eventually made him lower his guard, he only did it cause he believed Revan was not a real challenge for him.

More speculation.

Your argument is that because Vitiate attempted and failed to mindhack Revan {an attempt that required substantial effort}, it must mean Vitiate is superior and to a tremendous degree.

Not really. Especially when that attack required a lot of investment. 👆

Originally posted by Sinious
"The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy."

Hurtled is the key word there. A cocky TP attack followed by a hurtled attack shows that Vitiate still not going all out on Revan as it also shows that a hurtled attack was enough to stop Revan's charge and send him back.

...You got all that from the word "hurtled"? Are you kidding me? 😂

Originally posted by Sinious
At this point, we have a Vitiate who until a couple seconds ago believed that Revan was a weakling who could be taken care of without fighting and was sent back with a hurtled lightning attack. So it is only natural that he though 3 more of those small attacks would do the job.

That the attacks weren't charged doesn't mean they were weak. It just means they weren't charged. 😬

Originally posted by Sinious
Until this point, Vitiate's actions are not a representation of his true capabilities and after that point Vitiate instantly one-shots Revan.

No one ever claimed that all of Vitiate's attacks against Revan were his strongest. {Though both the initial TK wave and its follow up TP mindhaxx were, according to the text, charged and focused assaults.} Cf. my reference to Neph about boxing, jabs, and haymakers.

Originally posted by Sinious
This is an arena type all out no morals fight where both sides would unleash their full power and Vitiate is indeed more powerful than Galen. He won't finish him off as easily as Sidious did no doubt, but he will still win. 👆

That has yet to be established. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, absolutely.

It pleases me to have humbled you so utterly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

It pleases me to have humbled you so utterly.

Originally posted by Nephthys

I doubt you and that fine slam piece have much in common beyond the fact that you each bleed from your vaginas once a month. mmm

We do have one thing: We're both too good for you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your funeral lol. The facts haven't changed between now and then.

Which is why Im still right.

Lots of empty speculation here.

The text never says that Vitiate's initial effort was "casual" and that he upped the ante when facing resistance. In fact, the text never mentions any resistance on Revan's part other than the attack he used to put Vitiate on his ass.

Instead, it reads as though the attack itself simply required lots of effort from the onset and Revan put Vitiate on his ass.

{Which, coincidentally, is what Karpyshyn l8r confirmed to Intrepid37 via email: that the mindhaxx is not effortless. Which is another reason I trust my own interpretation over anyone else's.}

"When we confronted him, he didn’t even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding." - Revan when talking about their first encounter in the novel.

I've already entertained that possibility as well. Like I said, if it actually takes that much effort all the time, then Vitiate was %100 confident that he was capable of taking care of Revan without even fighting him.

More speculation.

Your argument is that because Vitiate attempted and failed to mindhack Revan {an attempt that required substantial effort}, it must mean Vitiate is superior and to a tremendous degree.

Not really. Especially when that attack required a lot of investment. 👆

...You got all that from the word "hurtled"? Are you kidding me? 😂

That the attacks weren't charged doesn't mean they were weak. It just means they weren't charged. 😬

No one ever claimed that all of Vitiate's attacks against Revan were his strongest. {Though both the initial TK wave and its follow up TP mindhaxx were, according to the text, charged and focused assaults.} Cf. my reference to Neph about boxing, jabs, and haymakers.

That has yet to be established. 👆

Nah, novel Revan vs Galen would be a much better fight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Lots of empty speculation here.

The text never says that Vitiate's initial effort was "casual" and that he upped the ante when facing resistance. In fact, the text never mentions any resistance on Revan's part other than the attack he used to put Vitiate on his ass.

Instead, it reads as though the attack itself simply required lots of effort from the onset and Revan put Vitiate on his ass.

{Which, coincidentally, is what Karpyshyn l8r confirmed to Intrepid37 via email: that the mindhaxx is not effortless. Which is another reason I trust my own interpretation over anyone else's.}

Vitiate have history of breaking individuals with his telepathic powers with barely an effort. Examples include Lord Dramath, Revan and Malak. The latter two simultaneously:

It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Mr. Karpyshyn's unofficial opinion is of no significance when we have official information at hand.

Revan proved to be much harder to break second time because he was absolutely prepared for this kind of offense. Telepathically subjugating Revan at this point would require lot more effort then norm; not surprisingly Vitiate had to exert much more then his norm to attempt to break Revan this time. However, such an effort failed because Revan not just resisted telepathic offense but went on the offensive on top of it in split-second time. In the heat of this moment, Vitiate was caught unprepared for an offense from the opponent because he had diverted much of his strength towards telepathic offense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
More speculation.

Your argument is that because Vitiate attempted and failed to mindhack Revan {an attempt that required substantial effort}, it must mean Vitiate is superior and to a tremendous degree.

Not really. Especially when that attack required a lot of investment. 👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Holy s*** I completely forgot about that quote. Thanks Legend! 🙂

Sinious
Which is why Im still right.

Well if that's true, your impression of LeGenDa guy who can't possibly assemble a cogent argument to defend this lame-ass character is pretty much flawless.

Sinious
Perhaps I should've used better wording. By "He assumed he could do it casually" I meant that it would take the same effort as it always does. Whether the TP attack always takes so much effort or not is not as important as the very nature of that attack which is simply taking care of someone without even fighting them. Even Revan sees it this way:

"When we confronted him, he didn’t even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding." - Revan when talking about their first encounter in the novel.

I've already entertained that possibility as well. Like I said, if it actually takes that much effort all the time, then Vitiate was %100 confident that he was capable of taking care of Revan without even fighting him.

You should have indeed used better wording, but the bottom line is that even this doesn't affect the discussion either way. The fact of the matter is that Vitiate invested tremendous energy into neutralizing Revan from the onset. The notion that he didn't intend to do him physical harm is irrelevant {and also incorrect, since Vitiate's very first salvo was a charged TK attack} since the technique was employed to prevent a fight from ever occurring in the first place.

tl;dr: you've utterly failed to refute the fact that Vitiate was seeking to neutralize Revan from the beginning and employed tremendous energies to do so.

Sinious
It means that Vitiate believed he was that superior. It means that he wasn't treating Revan like a real threat. Would he try to mindrape someone who is on his level if they walked into his throne room? I doubt it.

Believing oneself to be superior to one's opponent and believing that one's opponent isn't a threat aren't mutually exclusive. Not only can Vitiate still regard Revan as a threat and try to mindhack him, it might well explain why Vitiate opted to try it in the first place: to avoid a confrontation he might well lose. 👆

{Since apparently naked speculation is permissible here.}

Sinious
If that was the case, I wouldn't mention other things like the confidence in starting off with a TP attack would I?

You're assuming facts not in evidence. You're assuming that Vitiate opted for the mindhack because he felt Revan would be so easily dispatched. Not only is that contradicted by the text {the mindhack apparently requiring tremendous energy to employ}, but there's an alternative explanation:

The alternative explanation
Not only can Vitiate still regard Revan as a threat and try to mindhack him, it might well explain why Vitiate opted to try it in the first place: to avoid a confrontation he might well lose. 👆

Sinious
I didn't say they were weak. 😬

Then there's really no point in bringing them up. 👆

Sinious
I doubt the TK wave was charged.

I'm beginning to doubt you can read. 😬

His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.

Pretty straightforward, Sin.

Sinious
I think Vitiate prior to that was simply charging his power as in general and not to unleash a specific attack though I guess its open to speculation.

Right, because Vitiate "focusing and channeling his power" and releasing the attack "at the last possible instant" to thwart Revan is indicative of... complete control and effortlessness.

Just when I think you couldn't possibly craft a dumber argument, you overachieve.

Sinious
Vitiate's purpose was to send him back and it did the job.

Uh huh. And how do you know the purpose of the attack wasn't to seriously injure or incapacitate?

Sinious
His TP wave would have worked if Revan hadn't come up with a defense for it at last minute. And his charged lightning instantly overwhelmed Revan so none of these really prove your point.

Since my point is that Revan withstood 2 of Vitiate's 3 charged attacks and successfully evaded or deflected the rest and managed to put Vitiate on his ass twice, all of which the text supports, I think my compelling argument stands proudly erect.

And you're currently gagging on it.

lmfao @ Neph saying Galen's TK isn't more powerful than Revan's yet also preaches Bane and Zannah >>> Revan in the same field.

You know my stance of Mareks feats being exaggerated.

Which is an autistic stance at best, considering the kind of assniggery you try to pass off as grounded.

Revan's telekinetic actions (described in the novel) are mostly controlled and up-to-the-mark. Revan apparently went all-out while resisting Vitiate's telepathic assault [only], but even this is debatable.

I am sure that we haven't seen much from Revan in the context of his telekinetic abilities. Starkiller, in contrast, was trained and groomed by Darth Vader to use his powers to maximum destructive effect like a Sith Lord.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am sure that we haven't seen much from Revan in the context of his telekinetic abilities.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Which is an autistic stance at best, considering the kind of assniggery you try to pass off as grounded.

Not really. I argue TFU is exaggerated because it's the whole point of the game and has been stated as such. I don't argue it in other cases because it isn't and hasn't.

Also, assniggery sounds kind of like a racist slur.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Which is an autistic stance at best, considering the kind of assniggery you try to pass off as grounded.

😆 👆

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
lolwut.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We don't have many examples of Revan going all-out with his telekinetic abilities. Comparing Starkiller with Revan in this regard is moot point.

Revan ragdolling the Yavin strike teams come to mind.