Oregon Campus Shooting

Stop pretending that there is no other position to hold. The US is the one in the absurd (and ultimately immoral) position.

the insane gun culture in the US is doing nothing but massacring its own people.

In most cases of armed citizens intervening successfully, the people happen to be current or ex law enforcement/military. Your average gun owner probably isn't of much use, and might make things worse.

In other words, you don't have a rebuttal. Thank you for your important contribution to this conversation.

I very much believe that gun control is needed. The Sandyhook shooting occurred on my birthday, and prior to that, I hadn't thought much of the issue. Ushgarak and Omega Vision have the right of it, with their responses to the matter.

Also, I cannot take anything posted on a Tea Party website seriously.

Originally posted by REXXXX
I very much believe that gun control is needed. The Sandyhook shooting occurred on my birthday, and prior to that, I hadn't thought much of the issue. Ushgarak and Omega Vision have the right of it, with their responses to the matter.

Also, I cannot take anything posted on a Tea Party website seriously.

Everybody knows gun control is needed. We passed that point even during Columbine. Simply restating the obvious doesn't change anything. The issue is what kind of gun control is needed.

Originally posted by The Lost
I do not think most individuals wish to go back and do something you could easily do, Flyattractor. If you want to get caught up in this thread, do so.

eh. I got nothing going on at the moe....

😮‍💨

Originally posted by psmith81992
What pray tell, exactly is immoral?

Kinda overblowing the situation aren't you? The gun culture is massacring its own people? You mean the 1% of the 1% of the 1% dumb enough to do what we witnessed the other day?

Quite the assumption

He doesn't but it's no worse than your "boo guns" tirade.

It's immoral because it is a position held for selfish, paranoid reasons that gets people killed. Like I say- death for no reason. Straight out immoral. Gun control is a moral imperative.

Situations where groups of people are killed at once are massacres. Sometimes dozens are dying in one go. The thing that causes this in the US where it is not present elsewhere it its gun culture. That's all there is to it.

It's immoral because it is a position held for selfish, paranoid reasons that gets people killed. Like I say- death for no reason. Straight out immoral. Gun control is a moral imperative.

Situations where groups of people are killed at once are massacres. Sometimes dozens are dying in one go. The thing that causes this in the US where it is not present elsewhere it its gun culture. That's all there is to it.

It's lack of gun control, gun culture, mental health, glorification of violence, misogyny, racism, extreme partisanship, media exposure for killers, poverty, excessive individualism, selfishness, and more...

Ok yea that's a lot of things...Not just gun culture

Chicago is one of the most Liberal Cities in the U.S. It has the MOST Gun Laws, and the Most Sever Gun Laws in the U.S. In the last 30 days over 60 people have been killed, Over 300 for the year. Most of them are black and killed by other blacks. You never hear about this on the news.

According to what is being said in this thread. This shouldn't be the case.

Because simply screaming "change the gun culture" is an incomplete statement.

Writing NEW Laws doesn't stop crime. Laws don't PREVENT Crime. They just set the level to how much you punish the person that breaks them.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]Writing NEW Laws doesn't stop crime. Laws don't PREVENT Crime. They just set the level to how much you punish the person that breaks them. [/B]

I....what?

English please

Originally posted by psmith81992
Ok I wasn't sure what you were calling immortal. Of course gun control is a moral imperative. I honestly don't like using "moral imperative" because then we would get into an argument about what else constitutes as a moral imperative.

Specifically what is it about the gun culture? We know countries with more weapons per household than the US and hardly any crime. You say gun control but is it really gun culture or mental health?

This is a continuation of a point I've raised before. Original posts are on this page:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15114231

The point is that it is not just the number of guns- because other country gun death rates still wouldn't match the US even if their guns were as plentiful- and at the same time it;s not just about laws in isolation. The problem is that the US has a gun obsession; people are very quick to buy, draw and fire guns, and that's a mentality that's not just about private citizens and the second amendment; it's a police issue too.

But laws are representative of culture. Getting decent gun control law going is at least as much about a society saying "We're not standing for this any more" as much as it is about the actual effect of the law. These things can make a difference.

Like I said, in one of the original posts, in a country like the UK where gun deaths are very low, the gun control laws there are more a symptom of a culture that rejects guns that than the cause of the low deaths.

So you can't just ban all guns in the US (even if that was legally practical) and expect it to work because the underlying culture would be unchanged. It has to start going a bit at a time, each new gun restriction being the symptom of a culture pushing back.

But right now the gun culture is so strong that literally nothing is being done. It's ridiculous- and it has to be fought.

I don't think it's mental health because I don't think it's a few random nut jobs- it's people influenced by this broader culture. It's as much about the gun as a venerated symbol of independence than as a weapon; a way for people to assert themselves. Which they do, to lethal effect. In other cultures, they just seethe, but in the US they think they can get their message across with a gun. And the more it happens, the more people think it's a good way to go out.

It has to be stopped. The culture has to be challenged, repeatedly, its lies challenged, repeatedly, the constant paranoia and fear shown to be false and the entire concept that guns are a reasonable way for a citizenry to defend itself debunked. Eventually it will take hold, like sanity is slowly taking hold in US healthcare.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I....what?

Look at it this way Bardy.

As you yourself have pointed out in the past.

Much like Illegal Aliens. Drugs, and other such crimes.

Its impossible to stop it so we really shouldn't try.

Or maybe this way.

The College in Oregon has a No Guns Policy. It is a Gun Free Zone. None of the Students, Faculty or Security are allowed to carry guns on the campus property.

That rule or law was 99.99% effective.
Out of the entire population of people at the college that day only 1 person had a gun....
That's pretty good odds and should be celebrated.

Originally posted by psmith81992

Specifically what is it about the gun culture? We know countries with more weapons per household than the US and hardly any crime. You say gun control but is it really gun culture or mental health?

I'll save you some time, Switzerland isn't one. They have about a third the guns per capita as America does, and yes, their gun culture is different--they don't worship guns as some Americans do.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
--they don't worship guns as some Americans do.

Examples of actual "Gun Worship" in the U.S please.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Examples?

I'll save you some time, Switzerland isn't one. They have about a third the guns per capita as America does, and yes, their gun culture is different--they don't worship guns as some Americans do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

https://top5ofanything.com/list/de09aa45/Countries-with-the-Most-Guns-(firearms)-Per-Capita

And I'll add Israel to that list, which has a gun per virtually every household. Sp yes, it's a gun culture but I'd say the "worship" of guns here is extremely overrated.

Furthermore, there are examples of countries with more gun control having more gun related violence than countries with less but again, that's probably due to a lot of variables.

I don't think it's mental health because I don't think it's a few random nut jobs- it's people influenced by this broader culture.

And i don't think "sanity" is taken hold just because we have a pseudo universal healthcare option now.

Yes but every nation has nut jobs- I don't think the US has any more than normal. Significantly, it's really only in GUN violence where the US leads the way; other forms of violence are in line with other western nations.

It's just much more likely in the US that someone will pick up a gun to solve their issues. That's the culture to be challenged.

And the slow move towards universal healthcare is most certainly a move towards a long overdue sane policy.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Was there ever a single instance where one of those hardline gun supporters actually stopped the homicidal maniac? Since that's the main pro gun argument.

I don't know about stopping homicidal maniacs, but I do know a recent story where an armed man was able to intervene and shoot a guy who was in the process of robbing a store. Of course I didn't hear about this on the news because of the gun, but rather because the kids mother(robber was like 18) came on tv going on about how the guy should of just minded his own business and apparently just allowed her son to rob and get away with it(the kid didn't die).

Stories like that usually tend to not end up in the media, positive stories rarely do.