Havard Loses debate to Inmates on Illegal Immigration

Originally posted by psmith81992
I'd like to see a breakdown by crimes, whether low retention happened first or was as a result of rehabilitation programs, etc. Further, we need to stop taking a country that has a correlation of some kind, and say "we should do what they're doing." It sounds ridiculous each time. Great, we have the most millionaires on the planet, everyone should do what WE do because it works! No.

Well, if the goal of a country is to have the most millionaires then yes, they should do what the US is doing. That's just not usually a metric people care about as much.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, if the goal of a country is to have the most millionaires then yes, they should do what the US is doing. That's just not usually a metric people care about as much.

You're missing the point. It's not as simple as saying "I like what this country is doing, lets do that!" They're not doing it because they don't care about it, they're not doing it because it's not possible in most places.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, if the goal of a country is to have the most millionaires then yes, they should do what the US is doing. That's just not usually a metric people care about as much.

This is rich coming from the country who earned record profits by cheating and lying to make money.

I think most places are not doing it because the policies that lead to such a high number of millionaires are actually harmful to most people in the country.

I don't know, I personally am a big believer in comparing policies (of course holistically) to see which ones are more successful at achieving certain goals than others.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
This is rich coming from the country who earned record profits by cheating and lying to make money.

Volkswagen is not a country.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
This is rich coming from the country who earned record profits by cheating and lying to make money.

TIL VW is a country.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Volkswagen is not a country.

cease your lying, filthy Volkswagian.

I think most places are not doing it because the policies that lead to such a high number of millionaires are actually harmful to most people in the country.

I don't know, I personally am a big believer in comparing policies (of course holistically) to see which ones are more successful at achieving certain goals than others.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I'm not because the comparisons are never equal. You may find a country with looser gun laws and less gun related deaths, but you don't see everyone screaming "enact more liberal gun control policies". Hence the need for conclusive proof regarding the strength of a correlation as opposed to the mere existence of one.

You need to look at things holistically, like I said. But if there's so many places with gun control that have much lower rates, and even more, if rates drop in places when they go from little gun control to strict gun control, that is pretty much as strong an indication as you can get in policy making.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Wow, you truly are a moron. And the fact that you throw out strawmans like you're trying to make it rain in the club is evidence of that.

Originally posted by psmith81992
No, I'd rather live in your fantasy world where anyone can commit any sort of a crime and be "rehabilitated". Talk about idiotic.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Obviously a prisoner who has gotten out or is getting out fits the criteria of rehabilitation.

Originally posted by psmith81992
When you have strong evidence showing the strength of this correlation, then your argument will have merit.

How the **** is it a straw man when I addressed Bardock's description of your position, and not your position specifically? Do you even know what a straw man is?

a sham argument set up to be defeated.

This on the other hand is a straw man.

What the **** are "the criteria of rehabilitation?" And how the **** does it apply to a rapist who has been sodomizing other inmates after serving the time he was sentenced for? Because he's getting out.

"Once again the communication process broken down". The argument was does everybody deserve rehabilitation, not "these people are getting out, so shouldn't they be rehabilitated?"

And I suppose "strong evidence" is whatever you consider it to be. You know what? I'm done with you, you're not worth my time.

1. Make up ridiculous claims and then argue against said claims
2. Present very weak correlations and when questioned, huff and puff.
3. Claim the other participant isn't worth your time so you can ride safely into the sunset without doing an ounce of thinking.
👆

Originally posted by Bardock42
You need to look at things holistically, like I said. But if there's so many places with gun control that have much lower rates, and even more, if rates drop in places when they go from little gun control to strict gun control, that is pretty much as strong an indication as you can get in policy making.

I will hold you to that then regarding our next debate on social policy.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I will hold you to that then regarding our next debate on social policy.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I HAVE given you examples of countries that while having less guns per capita, have infinitely less gun related violence and deaths.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I HAVE given you examples of countries that while having less guns per capita, have infinitely less gun related violence and deaths.

And no one said it was the sole contributing factor, just that it is a contributing factor, and one way to curb it, as seen in many, many other countries is by having stricter gun control.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Serious question: do you want prisoners to leave prison better than they came in or not?

If education allows them to do that, then their rehabilitation is working, and I'm not sure why that should leave you with a "sick sick feeling." I'd rather tax dollars paying toward making prisoners better people than paying just to keep them inside forever with no hope of rehabilitation, or even worse, making them more hardened than they were before.

Norway has a very low recidivism rate because their prisons actually make prisoners into better people. At the moment, ours don't.

The sick feeling comes with the fact I know law abiding citizens that are still paying student loan fee's and the like. If we are spending tax dollars to educate criminals then why not give *everyone* a college education then? A free one, at that. Since something tells me once they get out of prison they aren't suddenly being forced to pay for the education they received.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but that's what people are saying, no? Less guns per capita leads to less gun related violence and deaths.

And no one said it was the sole contributing factor, just that it is a contributing factor, and one way to curb it, as seen in many, many other countries is by having stricter gun control.

You have refugees killing women in your own country. How about you deal with that first and less us and the US worry about our guns which btw is part of the second amendment.

Originally posted by Surtur
The sick feeling comes with the fact I know law abiding citizens that are still paying student loan fee's and the like. If we are spending tax dollars to educate criminals then why not give *everyone* a college education then? A free one, at that. Since something tells me once they get out of prison they aren't suddenly being forced to pay for the education they received.

Good point.

Originally posted by Surtur
The sick feeling comes with the fact I know law abiding citizens that are still paying student loan fee's and the like. If we are spending tax dollars to educate criminals then why not give *everyone* a college education then? A free one, at that. Since something tells me once they get out of prison they aren't suddenly being forced to pay for the education they received.

It's an interesting thing. People who have broken the law getting access to education that the average person in their same life circumstances wouldn't have. Meaning someone with the same life history would likely be less aware of benefits or less able to receive them.

There are some great programs that are basically stepping stones to college, in the range of $2000 for the entire thing, if not less. We'll be a much better country when everyone is provided the tools to start down that path from childhood and at least given the option and ability to continue their education no matter their circumstances.

It is hard to argue that it's not worthwhile to make sure that people who are coming from a history of criminal behavior have alternative means to succeed after being released, but so should people of any circumstance who want to do more with their lives.

The entire thing just leaves me with an unsettling feeling. I know people still paying student loans, I know people who never went to college because they just couldn't afford it. Some of these people literally could of enriched their lives by breaking the law. Not just via ill gotten gains via breaking the law, but also by being sent to prison. They'd get the free education, 3 meals a day, probably internet access, etc.

Prisoners live better then some actual non criminals I know.