MID-HERALD TOURNAMENT DISCUSSION

Originally posted by beatboks
I don't/didn't see the touching Nth metal and growing as amping. I saw it as increasing the amount of Nth metal. Had BW not shown the feat of Hawkman "drawing on the magnetic force of the planet" to hit Superman with the force of a planet with the largest known purest piece of Nth metal that exists.

You'll notice that in my ruling pretty much ALL I allowed of that strategy was the fact that It DQ'd the TP and energy manip of Decter's build (pretty much making all his attacks null). Had BW not had a brilliant scientist who knew how to utilize magneitcs for those effects in the mix as well as someone with the knowledge of Nth metal like HM that wouldn't have flown in my book (nopthing I can think of would have allowed HM to do teh same without Pym knowledge).

On the other hand doing the same to say a power gem IMHO would then encompass power mimicry not absorbing. That by the rules isn't allowed. If I were judging a match where such a tactic were done then I would rule that as a breach of the rules.

Absorning man's power to become what he touches allowing him to take on the properties of a substance/ object is one thing, gaining the powers granted by something like a power gem is something else again.

Its amping. Obvious amping. I was surprised the judges did not point that out. I seen it during Blair first post.

ewww.....this is gonna get messy now.... lol

if i may explain my own view (not forgetting i'm only an interested observer) i think both creel and hank BY NATURE amp. creel touches something, and amps, it's what he does--it is the NATURE of his powerset, by definition. hank grows and HE amps. again, nature of that powerset. i see, literally, no difference between their respective powers, and those of the hulk (and i thought hulk was dq'd from this thing....?)

imo if the no amp rule is to be STRICTLY adhered to, neither of those guys should have been allowed in the first place. since they were, the question should be will they continue to be allowed or not, and if they are, is it right to allow the one set of characters (and i'm not blaming bw at all, he was clear in his choice, and it was clearly allowed) to amp, while disallowing others? changing things up now, also seems a bit unfair to bw. his choices could have/should have been scrutinized much earlier on. his strat was pretty clear as well, (again, not intended as a slight bw, but you draft hawkman and creel--what the hell else is gonna happen?? lol) and really should have surprised no one here.

it is a bit of a messy issue....

#offtop

Wow, carver's ignore list grew...

where have you been and why didn't you comment on my nuke/typhoid mary thread and my crossbones/punisher/bullseye thread?? i thought we had something... 🙁

Well, well, well.

If BW or anyone who amps is drawn against me, I will kick up a fuss 👆

All kidding aside, we only have a few hours left. BW, I reckon you should at least have a backup in case your sentient Infinity Gem is not allowed in a three character Herald tourney. Seems to be the main contention.

In any case, I'm off to bed now. Time difference means you guys can do all sorts of shenanigans, but as Smurph said, I hope there wouldn't be much of that.

So I literally got an irl text today requesting my presence on KMC to help with a character ruling. It's good to know that you turkeys can't function without me for any reasonable length of time. Being the benevolent overseer that I am, I've come to pronounce my wisdom.

313

So, Warlock. As Smurph mentioned, he was originally listed as high herald. He got voted down to mid. It should be noted that I was among those that voted against the change, but I also wasn't too strongly against it.

The soul suck - for all it's used in the vs. forum as a OHK for nearly any fight - hasn't really been shown a ton of times, and failed at least once. But it's still a crazy attack with an abstract artifact that might be argued as OHK in this tourney. We'll come back to it.

The other uber tactic Warlock has available to him is pulling the battle into Soul World, where he's essentially God.

No one else has ever used the soul gem to the extent that Warlock has, so it's safe to say an amalgamation won't really help the user of it. I can think of maybe 1-2 meshes where abstract soul manipulation would be scary (binding it to an empath, for example), but none that involve anyone simply using the gem on a more abstract level. And nothing Warlock has ever done outside of those attacks should get him banned from mid herald.

Soul World is more easily accounted for in the rules. If you count Soul World as indefinite BFR and disallow it on those grounds, it's a non-factor. Iirc, one of the times he beat Surfer was due to this. The other was more legit, but still involved shenanigans (voluntary soul link) that won't be available in the middle of a battle.

And the soul suck...I mean, the easiest way to make him ok is if you just outlaw the tactic entirely. If you do that, there's no reason whatsoever he shouldn't be allowed. Obviously there's a chance whoever drafts him is trying for some abstract-busting plan that I haven't thought of, but there's no guarantee whatsoever that it will work, and imo very little that will support it.

If soul suck (I don't actually know the official name for this power) and Soul World can't be banned per the rules, he shouldn't be allowed. Otherwise, he's likely not even the most powerful draft in this thing.

Originally posted by Smurph
👆 Cool.

If Hawkman had feats of manipulating greater amounts of Nth metal, and Blaire used Hank/Creel to obtain greater amounts of Nth metal, would you allow it?

Basically yes.

HM didn't, so All I allowed was up to the level HM had shown (i.e the planetary level of magnetic force).

Normally all HM (pre flashpoint) has in the way of Nth metal in his possession is a few grams/ounces. When he has the claw that rises to a few pounds. As that is all he had been shown using by BW that was what I allowed it up to.

I was aware of the instance when he manipulated all Synn's nth with the Claw which was to a higher level but BW didn't actually show or mention that (that I recall anyway) so even though I was aware of it I couldn't weigh it in the debate.

I just mentioned it in my ruling to show Decter there were other instances that supported it. Just like I mentioned about the correct application of the insanity defense and Pym particles not used by Decter. IMO incorrectly applied for the purposes of debate and therefore didn't hold water.

Basically IMHO if Creel touched the soul gem and became it we could still only use what ever feats we have presented to us during debate of Warlock actually using the soul gem. That's my take anyway.

Its amping. Obvious amping. I was surprised the judges did not point that out. I seen it during Blair first post.

It's not amping when you have on panel instances of the character in your build using the object in question to exactly the level allowed by the judgements. For it to be an amp would mean there would have had to have been an increased level of power allowed on what was shown by the characters. There wasn't, not by me anyway. Which I stated in my ruling.

I'm also disallowing it as its sentient, and therefore a character in its own right.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
.....why are you adding an E to my name? 😕

I thought we were closer than this. cry

Guess I better stick to abbreviating your name, B-Dub.

I see the Warlock draft now, along with Creel/Vulcan. Is he going to have Vulcan manipulate soul energy? Seems like his power set is redundant if you're trying to do that with the gem anyway. And Creel...I guess, is the gem indestructible? Literally becoming gem-material wouldn't give you any more control over its properties. The Infinity Gems aren't dependent on size. And can Creel actually copy something of that infinite potential? WBut I guess if you're worried about him being indestructible, it would follow the same ruling(s) as whatever else Creel has been involved in. Which...appear to be murky, scrolling through the last few pages. I won't offer an opinion on that, though. It's more about tourney rules than individual interpretation.

In terms of power usage, though, my earlier post holds. Afaik, there's nothing that amalgamation could do power-wise that I didn't outline above. Soul World and a OHK soul suck are the two worries. Otherwise, he's golden at this level.

Psycho told me earlier today that Soul World was out, Karmic Blasts in. I'd like to see what he has to say to everyone else's concerns though. I'm not married to the team, just having trouble coming up with anyone I care enough to use.

1) I don't want to drag drafts out, but I would like to have some clear direction re: Absorbing Man, so that judges can at least rule from a common understanding of what is legal and illegal.

2) Redrafting:

Black Adam (Pre-FP) - Mid Herald

Cable (God-like) - Mid Herald

If there are's any confusion about which versions I'm drafting, just let me know.

Yeah. If he's/Warlock are not allowed, I'll change my drafts, but I need some direction from the host/judges.

I guess since no one went against what I said I'll use him...

Doctor Doom
Eradicator

At this point I would retire the Madison Jefferies Rule, and Ban Absorbing Man (And those like him). Due to the controversy behind the exploits and uses.

The tournament is split it in what falls as an amp, and what doesn't when it comes to the Madison Jefferies. So I suggest we do away with it all together.

As for Warlock + Mind Gem. My vote is that he is Mid Herald, but can hang with High Herald due to Hax. But ultimately Mid Herald.

Originally posted by Smurph
1) I don't want to drag drafts out, but I would like to have some clear direction re: Absorbing Man, so that judges can at least rule from a common understanding of what is legal and illegal.

2) Redrafting:

Black Adam (Pre-FP) - Mid Herald

Cable (God-like) - Mid Herald

If there are's any confusion about which versions I'm drafting, just let me know.

Originally posted by carver9
I guess since no one went against what I said I'll use him...

Doctor Doom
Eradicator

@DarkSaint

I do not think Pre or Post Flashpoint Martian Manhunter is operating beyond the confines of this tournament. To me he is a solid Mid Herald, and if you truly see value in him, I prompt you to reconsider him as a choice. Officially MM has not been outed or Banned for you to pick him.

Which Eradicator?

The one merged with the fortress of solitude is high herald.

Originally posted by Smurph
Which Eradicator?

The one merged with the fortress of solitude is high herald.

Not fortress erads.