Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Since when does bigger mean better, kek.
In terms of firepower and such? Most of the time.
That's part of why Super Star Destroyers are so impressive, after all. And each Rebellion-era and later ship may as well be a small SSD to the ships from back then.
If you have a dozen 300 meter ships, you're going to beat a 1,200 meter ship. 😬
Well, if you also have large quantities of the bigger ships, and the big ships are supported by smaller ships, that also helps, y'know? Vong and their foes had huge fleets.
The 'fuzzy wuzzy' strategy of swarming the big with the small can work- indeed, the GFFA eventually goes back to it with some very high-firepower designs in Legacy- but it can also lead to the small suffering casualties without killing the large, and if sufficient numerical advantage cannot be reached, things go quite badly.
Any place the Rakatan cannot mass in very large number, is going to go badly for them. If there's only a dozen of their ships in orbit of a planet and 4 ISD-sized Vong ships show up, they'll be lucky to get any kills before being wiped out.
And there is the matter of the healthy war-ready Worldship. The only way the New Republic was able to kill it was a suicide SSD-bomb. Without that, it would take truly gigantic fleet to hope to take it down.
Except the Rakata have a fleet that's been described time and time against as practically infinite.
They should certainly have like, dozens to hundreds of ships at every planet with their ridiculous OP'ness.
Plus they have the Foundry that produces an infinite amount of battledroids for their armies as well.
And I doubt the Rakata care a lot about "casualties," lawl.
They also have that Star Forge that xenoforms planets that can be a counter to the Vong's vongforming.
Originally posted by Q99
The fact that the the Republic was able to put up a fight at all says how much they're disadvantaged- note the TOR Republic's ship of the line is 300 meters long. The fighting went on for a good while when Malak had the Star Forge, after all. And killing the Star Forge ships even with Republic Hammerheads was quite doable, the problem was more kept coming.
Revan sabotaged the defensive arrangements of the Star Forge in Lehon and then raided the vessel to sabotage its activities from within.
Revan also managed to redeem Bastilla Shan and the latter used her remarkable Battle Meditation technique to turn the tide of the entire battle in the favor of the Republic forces in a span of minutes; she literally sapped the will of the Sith forces to fight effectively.
Now, if we are assuming the Rakatan Empire in its glory days, I don't think that it was easy to land on Lehon and disable the massive shield that protected the Star Forge from external threats. In-fact, this shield prevented [any] enemy vessel from landing safely on Lehon. Furthermore, Lehon may have been heavily guarded by Rakatan forces during the prime years of Rakatan Empire.
Originally posted by Q99
Note, the Vong initially steamrolled the New Republic and Imperial Remnant worlds, with 1,200 meter Mon Cals and 1,600 meter ISDs as their standard ships of the line. And the problem was killing the Vong ships to begin with, with their high-defense Dovin Basals and all that.
Rakatans are rumored to have routed the mighty Celestials.
If Revan's plan on the Foundry had not been foiled, he would have raised an army that would have destroyed the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire whose technology was similar to that of the Great Galactic Empire. Rakatan technology should not be foolishly underestimated.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except the Rakata have a fleet that's been described time and time against as practically infinite.
It's been repulsed militarily, mind you. Tython was able to fight them off.
Which, partially, could just be their lack of experience at fighting peer foes. Despite their power- or because of their power- they'd be unused to facing foes that can punch in their weight class.
They should certainly have like, dozens to hundreds of ships at every planet with their ridiculous OP'ness.
Here's the thing: I agree. And that still leaves them outmatched.
500 worlds with a dozen each leaves them with fewer ships than the Vong had at some specific battles.
A hundred each may cancel the number advantage, but that's still of smaller outmatched ships.
And I doubt the Rakata care a lot about "casualties," lawl.
It's not that they care, it's that casualties reduce their actual capabilities.
The Vong don't care about casualties either. That's why Coruscant cost them so much- they spent so many lives on it that they didn't have enough to continue to push on as they had even though they wanted to, they needed to recover first.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are forgetting the role of Bastilla Shan and Revan.Revan sabotaged the defensive arrangements of the Star Forge in Lehon and then raided the vessel to sabotage its activities from within.
Revan also managed to redeem Bastilla Shan and the latter used her remarkable Battle Meditation technique to turn the tide of the entire battle in the favor of the Republic forces in a span of minutes; she literally sapped the will of the Sith forces to fight effectively.
It's not that I'm forgetting, it's that I think it's not necessary in this circumstance.
That allowed the Republic to take it out despite the Republic being pretty badly sapped from prior fighting and having ships that were individually weaker.
The Vong can just hit them with, say, 3,000 capital ships, while also engaging on other major Rakatan worlds with similar numbers, and due to their force-blankness, the Rakatan wouldn't get warnings in the force that they needed to protect the forge right then.
Rakatans might have super vessels as well. They have developed stuff that was beyond the understanding of the engineers of the Republic.
That'd be speculative, and besides, there's levels of supervessel.
The Ascendant Spear was a supervessel in TOR, and it's just a pretty-big warship with a fast engine.
A SSD is a supervessel, and the Vong have a number of SSD-equivalent ships.
While the Rakatan may have aces in the whole, as many aces as the Vong, and enough of them to counteract the conventional edge? That's very unlikely.
And to take about Rakatan tech some, it's forced based, making it hard to understand to normal engineers. That said, it was able to be fought with KotoR, TOR, and even old Tython technology to various extents.
Vong biotech is something engineers also couldn't understand- for entirely different but quite obvious reasons- and it was early on definitely outmatching Imperial/Rebel tech for awhile, until they figured out adjustments and specific counters. A problem the Rakatan are also likely to have.
Rakatans are rumored to have routed the mighty Celestials.
I will point out we have no idea how powerful the non-One Celestials are, and that Abeloth was also involved in their fall, and they also clashed with the Killiks around the same time. It could be that everything just went bad for the Celestials around the same time- and even then, their fate is unknown, one possibility is they simply threw up their hands and left.
If Revan's plan on the Foundry had not been foiled, he would have raised an army that would have destroyed the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire whose technology was similar to that of the Great Galactic Empire. Rakatan technology should not be foolishly underestimated.
Yes, but if Revan's plan hadn't been thwarted, he'd have not only the Star Forge, but the whole Republic, thousands/tens of thousands of worlds, to draw from. It was not the Forge alone that would allow him to do so, it was merely the keystone to the plan.
And while the Sith Empire's technology resembles the Galactic Empire's, that's merely similar to. A Harrower is smaller than a Victory or Venator, let alone an Imperial Star Destroyer.
The Galactic Empire used descendants of the designs, but larger, stronger ones.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The GE would stomp the Infinite Empire or any other Old Republic-era faction.
Yes.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Or is the World Razer merely hype?
Honestly we don't know precisely what it can do.
But consider, we know a few other star killers. Naga Sadow's Meditation Sphere, and the Sun Crusher. The first beaten by the still young Old Republic, the second by the just-out-of-the-rebellion New Republic. If it's force-based, a method similar to Sadow's would make sense.
And molten something dropped on it was enough to keep it sealed. So it can be physically imprisoned.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Like they supposedly stomped the "insignificant" rebels?
The Rebellion worked by recruiting from within the Empire, turning Empire worlds into Rebellion worlds. It began as an uprising, rather than taking the Empire's military head on. The internal rebellion factor meant for one thing, the Imperial fleet had to be spread out for coverage and to suppress many worlds, rather than concentrated like is used in a war against an enemy who isn't from inside you.
Even then, the big thing that crippled the Empire wasn't it's material defeat, but how it splintered with Sidious and Vader gone.
Against the Rakatan... well, very few people are going to want to defect to them like they would the Rebels, you know? It'll only be the Rakatan forces, and they will have a limited number of strategic targets, and that means it'll be more like the later days of the Clone Wars again, only with the Rakatans having a smaller fleet than the CIS and the Empire a larger one than the Republic.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And again, Q99, how are super weapons comparable to entities?
The only reason the World Razer is scary is because it reportedly performed superweapon-esque feats. Something with those feats can be quite beatable whether they're mechanical or a living being.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You do realize that saying a bunch of savage teddy bears gave the Rebels a fighting chance makes them and the Empire both sound legit terrible?
So were gonna just judge 1 sole battle out of...the countless others and say the Rebels and Empire suck?
Ok...can we do that for other factions too? What about characters?
Come on now Fresh...and plus that, the Empire still would have won if it weren't for Chewie hijacking the AT-ST.
Just going off of 1 battle doesn't mean much, especially when the Empire had many things going against them in that 1 battle.
Doesn't make them terrible.