"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done." - Han Solo
I think Han's not entirely wrong, but the Empire would still win on resources even if they lost a superweapon or two in the process.
They also would've used infiltrators to try and convince Moffs, admirals, etc. to break away and similar.
Basically, the Vong can't beat a late era galactic civ straight up, they need to try and get it into internal fighting, because the GE, NR, and similar, are *so big*.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The idea that, because theycouldn'tdidn't defeat the rebellion, the GE won't/can't stomp TOR-era factions is quite silly.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, the notion that size isn't important or even potentially decisive smacks of some deep-seated Freudian denial. Not only does the Empire control vastly more territory than any TOR faction, it therefore possesses vastly more industry, manpower, and resources on which to draw. These things are very much relevant in any military engagement, real or fictional.
The Old Republic [as of SWTOR] controlled thousands of habitable worlds and its military might comprised of hundreds of fleets.
In-fact, the Great Galactic War was fought in thousands of habitable worlds and took place in Unknown Regions, habitable space controlled by the Empire, Core Worlds, Hutt Space and Distant Outer Rim.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
**On top of that, not only does the Empire outstrip any TOR faction in terms of territorial size and industrial base, but in terms of military strength, it's not even remotely comparable:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Second, as Q correctly points out, the Empire's vessels have a distinct size and technological advantage {yes, size and mass are very much relevant in vessel-to-vessel comparisons} due to thousands of years of further research and experimentation.
Now tell me something about the vessels of the Galactic Empire that is major leap from the technologies of the vessels of the Old Republic.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Third, the reason the Empire failed to defeat the Rebellion was due to the failures of its leadership, not its military capability. The Emperor had the rebellion by the balls at Endor {by his own design!} and could have decapitated the entire opposition in one fell swoop but opted for theatrics over efficiency. We know exactly why he did that. So unless there's a Skywalker involved somewhere, I'm doubting a repeat performance. 😬
Good. Good.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All that said, yes, the Galactic Empire would absolutely take any TOR era faction to the curb. They're bigger, stronger, and faster to an absurd degree. Maybe after they're smashed, TOR insurgents will become a protracted nuisance to the Empire, but they will be smashed all the same and only after. 👆
I haven't touched upon the subject of superweapons and Force-users of the Old Republic era yet.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Old Republic [as of SWTOR] controlled thousands of habitable worlds and its military might comprised of hundreds of fleets.In-fact, the Great Galactic War was fought in thousands of habitable worlds and took place in Unknown Regions, habitable space controlled by the Empire, Core Worlds, Hutt Space and Distant Outer Rim.
The Empire has over a million worlds... you know those huge number of senate pods in the prequel trilogy? Those don't normally represent individual worlds, they represent *sectors*.
I'd estimate the TOR Republic in the hundreds of thousands easily.
The Old Republic developed large and powerful vessels as well such as Valor-class and Centurion-class. These vessels were (heavily) armed with Turbolaser canons, Quad laser turrets, Ion cannons, Proton torpedo tubes and Concussion missile launchers.
The Centurion class is 3/4ths the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer. It was used as a flagship, in relatively limited number.
Valors are smaller than Centurions. They're 500 meters long, but taller and thicker than most ships. They were a rough match for the 800 meter Harrower.
Smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer, which is a ship the Imperial Navy was slowly phasing out due to being small and out of date.... though it turned out to be good at pirate hunting and similar tsks, so the design persisted.
What was once considered a strong line battleship, is now smaller than something considered too small to be the front line. What was once considered a heavy flagship, is now smaller than an Imperial ship of the line.
Basically, a TOR scout coming on an average bog standard Imperial fleet would think they walked in to a Flagship convention, with some *especially* big, impressive, extra size new flagships. If there were no Imperial flagships present.
Now tell me something about the vessels of the Galactic Empire that is major leap from the technologies of the vessels of the Old Republic.
The Executor class is 19,000 meters, a size unheard of back in their era. Similarly, other Star Dreadnaught class ships like the Bellator and Mandator were 7km, 12km, and other large sizes.
Ship construction technologies have improved in the ability to make big scale ships for
Also, fighter technology has improved. Sith Fighters and Republic fighters of the time were both lightly armed and armored. Two laser cannons were the norm, little to no shields... sure, kinda predecessors to the base TIE there, but the Interceptor would be heavily armed by their standards, and something like the TIE Advanced or TIE Defender would be mobile death machines with no fighter even coming close. Defenders have several times the firepower as well as great shields for a fighter.
Furthermore... no fighters of the TOR era had hyperdrives. While the Galactic Empire normally didn't equip fighters with hyperdrives (viewing it as a waste for mass-produced carrier based craft), Advanceds, Defenders, Assault Gunboats, and a few other less common craft. Heck, Interceptors *could* handle them (Thrawn modified his), they just weren't equipped. So Hyperdrive technology has gotten more miniaturized too.
I also believe a basic TIE is probably faster and more maneuverable than their predecessors, an Interceptor definitely so, but that's harder to demonstrate. Firepower and shielding and hyperdrives are easier to show- there were no old era analogs to the Rebellion era elite fighters, and none of the base fighters have the capability of an X-wing.
In the big and the small, the Galactic Empire holds the advantage.
All major TOR era factions were immensely resourceful and developed super-weapons. No major TOR era faction will turn out to be a walk in the park for the Galactic Empire in a war.
Note, a number of the TOR superweapons are simply 'superships,' exceptional flagships like the Ascendant Spear... and are outmatched by Imperial mass produced ships.
Stuff like the Silencer superlaser is nice, but mounted on a fairly fragile package as these things go. Those can inflict some unexpected casualties, but aren't remotely war winners when all the ships of the line are outsized. Pop a few ISDs before going down, to be sure, but go down it would, and there's plenty of ISDs.
None of the superweapons really compare to a Death Star.
While their size and ready fleets means they'd put up a fight in a war if they were hit right at the end of the cold war, their fleet is ultimately grass, all it can do is try and buy time with spending ships and territory against the superior opponent and hope the force users can pull something off through non-military means.
After a few years of fighting each other... the two main TOR powers were so exhausted the Eternal Empire was able to roll up much of both in just five years, and they don't have the resources or ship sizes of the Galactic Empire.
Q regarding the TIE fighter while it did lack shielding and armor, made up for in speed and maneuverability their firepower was pretty impressive too, which couple with the pilot's skill(who are noted the best in the galaxy) made it deadly. An example being, the Death Star Attack or the Falcon attack.
The TIEs for the Falcon even while just putting on a show and holding back, were able to do some pretty good damage and evade the cannons.
Death Star, Luke(being known as a great pilot even before the X-wing) and Biggs(former Imperial pilot himself) had great trouble against the TIE fighters.
All in all, the standard TIE fighter gets a lot of shit....which I get it, but it's still a highly maneuverable and speedy fighter with powerful laser cannons. It doesn't have shields or armor, but the pilot's skill is suppose to make up for that.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Q regarding the TIE fighter while it did lack shielding and armor, made up for in speed and maneuverability their firepower was pretty impressive too, which couple with the pilot's skill made it deadly. An example being, the Death Star Attack or the Falcon attack.
I quite agree!
It's my opinion that compared to older fighters, TIEs would be speedier and more maneuverable and have stronger laser canons.
It's just when comparing technologies, it's easier and more obvious to point out the TOR doesn't even have an equivalent to the fancier Imperial fighters.
A TIE is likely an incremental improvement. A Defender is a bundle with no equivalent in any catagory.
Originally posted by Q99
The Empire has over a million worlds... you know those huge number of senate pods in the prequel trilogy? Those don't normally represent individual worlds, they represent *sectors*.I'd estimate the TOR Republic in the hundreds of thousands easily.
If memory serves me correctly, a source reveals that the Galactic Empire invested much of its resources on controlling a large number of worlds which proved to be counterproductive for its effectiveness in a war and the rebels took advantage of this situation.
A large number of habitable worlds are not industrial in nature. The Galactic Empire had only 30 worlds at its disposal that were resourceful enough to meet its military requirements. There aren't many Correllia-types out there.
Originally posted by Q99
The Centurion class is 3/4ths the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer. It was used as a flagship, in relatively limited number.Valors are smaller than Centurions. They're 500 meters long, but taller and thicker than most ships. They were a rough match for the 800 meter Harrower.
Smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer, which is a ship the Imperial Navy was slowly phasing out due to being small and out of date.... though it turned out to be good at pirate hunting and similar tsks, so the design persisted.
What was once considered a strong line battleship, is now smaller than something considered too small to be the front line. What was once considered a heavy flagship, is now smaller than an Imperial ship of the line.
History is filled with examples of small vessels taking on much larger and advanced vessels and prevailing due to sheer numbers and/or superior tactics employed and/or additional factors in battles. Small vessels can be mass-produced due to lower costs and can be utilized to swarm even a fleet of large vessels in a battlefield.
A huge starship undoubtedly packs considerable firepower but it is also extremely expensive to maintain and operate, and its loss in a battle can negatively influence the morale of the troops. The Executor-class was designed to intimidate potential adversaries and discourage them from resisting the Galactic Empire but it was not a practical weapon-system and failed to live up to its expectations because the philosophy behind it was utterly flawed. Heck, a (single) A-wing Starfighter brought one down during the Battle of Endor.
The mainstay of the military capability of the Galactic Empire in the space was the Imperial-class. These vessels were practical and could be fielded in much higher numbers then the significantly larger showpieces during battles.
During the Old Republic timeline, Valor-class and Harrower-class proved to be practical designs. They packed considerable firepower and could be fielded in large numbers during battles.
The best thing about Harrower-class design, in particular, was its customization potential. A single Harrower-class vessel could be transformed into a mobile superweapon capable of one-shotting an entire fleet of the Republic and even a planet.
However, technological evolution in Star Wars is not like in real life. There are numerous examples of ancient creations that defy logic and the notion of technological evolution in the lore. For example, an ancient vessel Gravestone possessed sufficient firepower to one-shot an entire fleet of advanced vessels in space. This vessel predated the existence of Harrower-class by centuries and it became a stuff of myths and legends until it was rediscovered by the Outlander. And Gravestone was a [frigate] as per starship standards.
Heck, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire developed a superweapon that could one-shot a starship (of any size) even in hyperspace. I do not recall Galactic Empire developing a superweapon of similar capability.
Originally posted by Q99
Basically, a TOR scout coming on an average bog standard Imperial fleet would think they walked in to a Flagship convention, with some *especially* big, impressive, extra size new flagships. If there were no Imperial flagships present.
Originally posted by Q99
The Executor class is 19,000 meters, a size unheard of back in their era. Similarly, other Star Dreadnaught class ships like the Bellator and Mandator were 7km, 12km, and other large sizes.
Originally posted by Q99
Ship construction technologies have improved in the ability to make big scale ships for
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire embraced the philosophy of technological and industrial superiority over potential adversaries but the Old Republic had too much resources at its disposal to throw at the Empire in different sectors and sabotage its progress.
Originally posted by Q99
Also, fighter technology has improved. Sith Fighters and Republic fighters of the time were both lightly armed and armored. Two laser cannons were the norm, little to no shields... sure, kinda predecessors to the base TIE there, but the Interceptor would be heavily armed by their standards, and something like the TIE Advanced or TIE Defender would be mobile death machines with no fighter even coming close. Defenders have several times the firepower as well as great shields for a fighter.
Most of the military assets of the Galactic Empire were based on the concepts introduced by the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire centuries earlier. Palpatine acknowledged this in his own remarks while checking ancient records.
Originally posted by Q99
Furthermore... no fighters of the TOR era had hyperdrives. While the Galactic Empire normally didn't equip fighters with hyperdrives (viewing it as a waste for mass-produced carrier based craft), Advanceds, Defenders, Assault Gunboats, and a few other less common craft. Heck, Interceptors *could* handle them (Thrawn modified his), they just weren't equipped. So Hyperdrive technology has gotten more miniaturized too.
Imperial agents [of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire] used vessels that were absolutely state-of-the-art, stealthy in design and equipped with an advanced hyperdrive. Their purpose was to sneak into enemy positions undetected and sabotage their activities.
As for the hyperdrives, I haven't noticed progress in this area throughout the lore. Galactic Empire manufactured and utilized class 2.0 hyperdrives [on average]. Same is true for the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire but it manufactured more advanced hyperdrives as well (approaching class 5.0 and/or above) for use in military assets.
Originally posted by Q99
I also believe a basic TIE is probably faster and more maneuverable than their predecessors, an Interceptor definitely so, but that's harder to demonstrate. Firepower and shielding and hyperdrives are easier to show- there were no old era analogs to the Rebellion era elite fighters, and none of the base fighters have the capability of an X-wing.In the big and the small, the Galactic Empire holds the advantage.
Originally posted by Q99
Note, a number of the TOR superweapons are simply 'superships,' exceptional flagships like the Ascendant Spear... and are outmatched by Imperial mass produced ships.Stuff like the Silencer superlaser is nice, but mounted on a fairly fragile package as these things go. Those can inflict some unexpected casualties, but aren't remotely war winners when all the ships of the line are outsized. Pop a few ISDs before going down, to be sure, but go down it would, and there's plenty of ISDs.
None of the superweapons really compare to a Death Star.
Ascendant Spear can one-shot a starship of any size and an entire fleet as well. Few Imperial Starships matched its firepower.
Moreover, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire developed planet-busters as well. While no ancient vessel matched the firepower of Death Star [pound-for-pound], the best among them could destroy the Death Star itself nonetheless.
In-fact, a small number of stealthy Starfighters could sneak right through the defenses of Death Star and sabotage its power core like the rebels.
Originally posted by Q99
While their size and ready fleets means they'd put up a fight in a war if they were hit right at the end of the cold war, their fleet is ultimately grass, all it can do is try and buy time with spending ships and territory against the superior opponent and hope the force users can pull something off through non-military means.After a few years of fighting each other... the two main TOR powers were so exhausted the Eternal Empire was able to roll up much of both in just five years, and they don't have the resources or ship sizes of the Galactic Empire.
Galactic Empire may have technological edge over ancient superpowers but it isn't steamrolling one in the manner as you presume. Victory in a war is dependent upon a number of factors.
If the Galactic Empire is able to bring its entire power to bear and does not suffers major setbacks during the war, then it can defeat any known civilization. However, if it suffers major setbacks during the war then it will loose. Galactic Empire have its own share of weaknesses which can be exploited.
The reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, in particular, was well-done in all aspects; state-of-the-art technology complemented by a large number of powerful Force-users and brilliant tacticians. This is how it managed to defeat a much larger and more resourceful Republic during the Great Galactic War but it failed to capitalize on its gains because Emperor Valkorion turned on his Sith allies during a crucial phase of the lengthy conflict for personal gains. In-fact, some Sith conspired against him after learning about his horrific history and aided agents of the Republic at stopping him.
If the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had achieved its peak industrial capability (with completion of its Star Forge-like projects), nothing could stop it. However, war hampered its progress and internal strife proved to be its undoing.