Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Swtore states that Rakatan tech was "galaxy-altering".
Yea, it let them develop a galaxy-wide Empire that lasted for millennia.
The invention of the hyperdrive was also galaxy altering.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Great. Now, mind actually answering my question?
Your question: "And again, Q99, how are super weapons comparable to entities?"
My answer: "They have similar offensive feats. As we can see, being able to destroy worlds or even stars doesn't make one invincible- and being an entity or weapon, that should apply fairly evenly, since we're just talking feats."
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Seriously, where did this idea that bigger is better come from? Didn't seem to stop Japan.
Japan lost, badly. They never had a chance. Their best military mind noted, "We'll win for six months. Then things go against us."
Hell, in TOR, the Sith Empire is far smaller than the Republic. Hasn't been totally decimated yet by it.
Note they gained a lot of territory, initially with surprise on their side and a big initial build-up vs a foe not expecting war, then had to stop and build supply lines and try and build up again after their forces tired out, and even with stuff like the Sun Razer providing them a number of superweapons, when the war restarted things didn't actually go great for them. They're very reliant on superweapons and stuff like the Dread Masters and various force related things, straight up they hit strategic walls.
It's a good think the Rakata know how to think and fought off the Celestials, which despite Q99's, "We just don't know"s, were largely wide spread and very successful.
Yea, they were successful, but they were also taken down by not one, but multiple simultaneous big problems. And even after taking them down, the Rakatan had a mere 500 worlds.
And 'wide spread' is relative. Their stuff is found across the galaxy, but just like the Rakatan, only on a fairly small number of worlds. They weren't wide spread like the Galactic Empire.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, the notion that size isn't important or even potentially decisive smacks of some deep-seated Freudian denial. Not only does the Empire control vastly more territory than any TOR faction, it therefore possesses vastly more industry, manpower, and resources on which to draw. These things are very much relevant in any military engagement, real or fictional.
Right, very true. The GEmpire is almost twice the size of the areas in KOTOR, and TOR is much closer to KotoR than the Empire.
While expansion comes slowly in Star Wars, there was still a *lot* of gained territory in 4 millennia, and the GE actually pushed for a fair amount of settlement.
Here is the Rakatan Empire:
Here is the Galactic Empire:
Here is the expansion over time:
Map- TOR is everything within light blue. Galactic Empire is everything.
And the Vong fought through a very big chunk of that.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, it let them develop a galaxy-wide Empire that lasted for millennia.The invention of the hyperdrive was also galaxy altering.
No, it specifically says that their technology is galaxy-altering. They have things like the Mother Machine, which literally created the Twilek, Rattataki ect species. They have the Star Forge and Foundry. A tiny Rakatan box has the energy throughput of a sun and can create a nano-zombie virus. The Rakatans have the best tech seen in SW imo.
Originally posted by Q99
Your question: "And again, Q99, how are super weapons comparable to entities?"My answer: "They have similar offensive feats. As we can see, being able to destroy worlds or even stars doesn't make one invincible- and being an entity or weapon, that should apply fairly evenly, since we're just talking feats."
That's a dumb argument. There's an obvious difference between a machine that uses science to do something and an entity that did everything with it's own power. You can't shove a torpedo down the World Razer's waste hatch and have it chain-reaction blow up. The Sun Razer "wasn't that hard to stop" because it's a tiny ship that shoots missiles that cause a Sun to go supernova, it's not a massive being that went toe to toe with an entire civilisation in a straight fight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it specifically says that their technology is galaxy-altering.
Q explained how their technology did indeed alter the galaxy, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a dumb argument. There's an obvious difference between a machine that uses science to do something and an entity that did everything with it's own power. You can't shove a torpedo down the World Razer's waste hatch and have it chain-reaction blow up. The Sun Razer "wasn't that hard to stop" because it's a tiny ship that shoots missiles that cause a Sun to go supernova, it's not a massive being that went toe to toe with an entire civilisation in a straight fight.
Again, honestly not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying supernovae are more potent when caused by magic as opposed to science? Where's the obvious difference?
Q's comparison is quite apt: he's saying that the ability to defeat or suppress an object of extraordinary destruction isn't necessarily the hallmark of a god, especially when the circumstances of which are unknown. The Sun RazerCrusher could destroy solar systems and could tank shots from Star Destroyers(?) and was thwarted at least twice and not by the full military might of a galaxywide armada. 👆
So again I ask:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have the circumstances of the Rakatan's defeat of the World Razer been made known?
Or put another way: The Emperor is a fleet-eater and planet-buster. Han Solo killed the Emperor. Your logic dictates that Han is not only superior to the Emperor but, by extension, worlds and fleets. Han can now solo Coruscant and the Eternal Fleet.
These are why examining circumstances are important. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Q explained how their technology did indeed alter the galaxy, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
I mean that it's not as in it's some revolutionary tech like the car or something. The quote I'm talking about is stating that the Rakata used Belsavis "to store galaxy-altering technology for potential later use." It's clearly talking about specific technology that can have galaxy-wide effects.
Originally posted by The_TempestAgain, honestly not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying supernovae are more potent when caused by magic as opposed to science? Where's the obvious difference?
Q's comparison is quite apt: he's saying that the ability to defeat or suppress an object of extraordinary destruction isn't necessarily the hallmark of a god, especially when the circumstances of which are unknown. The Sun
RazerCrusher could destroy solar systems and could tank shots from Star Destroyers(?) and was thwarted at least twice and not by the full military might of a galaxywide armada. 👆So again I ask:
Creating some chemical compound that destabilizes a Sun's core or whatever obviously requires less direct energy than a being containing and consuming a Sun through it's own might, yes. Do you think it takes more power to create an explosion through combining various compounds that react violently together that blows up a building or do you think Sidious swatting it to dust with TK does?
The fact is that the World Razer isn't some machine you can just dismantle, or that you can take out the pilot or has a convenient weak spot you can blow up to destroy the whole thing or whatever. The Rakata beat it into submission but were explicitly incapable of killing it, hence why they needed to contain it. It's an entity capable of defending itself, which it did. But it wasn't enough. That's why it's impressive that they beat it into submission.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Like others have already stated, it took the entire Empire ru defeat and they only imprisoned it on Belsavis. Hence my point.
So the circumstances are not known. Which is fine. The problem is, as far as I know, nothing concrete is known about The World Razer either. I recall the Codex making references to cryptic warnings and inscriptions and very specifically stating that little is known about the thing itself.
Not sure how any of that is indicative of the Rakatan's ability to defeat the Vong, let alone the Galactic Empire.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I mean that it's not as in it's some revolutionary tech like the car or something. The quote I'm talking about is stating that the Rakata used Belsavis "to store galaxy-altering technology for potential later use." It's clearly talking about specific technology that can have galaxy-wide effects.
But as Q points out, that technology did have galaxy-wide effects. His interpretation of how it affected the galaxy simply differs from yours and nowhere is your interpretation rendered "clear" in the text.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Creating some chemical compound that destabilizes a Sun's core or whatever obviously requires less direct energy than a being containing and consuming a Sun through it's own might, yes.
And you know the precise mechanics of The World Razer's alleged ability to incite supernovae?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you think it takes more power to create an explosion through combining various compounds that react violently together that blows up a building or do you think Sidious swatting it to dust with TK does?
Since power in this context refers to "magic," then obviously the magical means is more magical than the non-magical means. I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact is that the World Razer isn't some machine you can just dismantle, or that you can take out the pilot or has a convenient weak spot you can blow up to destroy the whole thing or whatever. The Rakata beat it into submission but were explicitly incapable of killing it, hence why they needed to contain it. It's an entity capable of defending itself, which it did. But it wasn't enough. That's why it's impressive that they beat it into submission.
You seem to know a lot more about The World Razer than what I think is given. How do you know it lacks a critical, convenient weakness? How do you know exactly how it allegedly destroys worlds and eats stars? Where can I examine the evidence?
The Death Star and Sun Crusher were each capable of defending themselves as well. It's just that their destructive output did not translate to equal defensiveness.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But as Q points out, that technology did have galaxy-wide effects. His interpretation of how it affected the galaxy simply differs from yours and nowhere is your interpretation rendered "clear" in the text.
No, that interpretation is "clear"ly wrong. As it says they stored the tech for potential future use. You can't do that if it's just some new hyperdrive that goes faster. You can revolutionise a technology twice with the same thing.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you know the precise mechanics of The World Razer's alleged ability to incite supernovae?
It didn't. It ate the stars.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Since power in this context refers to "magic," then obviously the magical means is more magical than the non-magical means. I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here.
Oh please. You're fine with using somethings weight to determine the strength of TK, there's no difference in using the amount of power it takes to destroy something with the Force. Something you've also done. Don't be a dingus.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You seem to know a lot more about The World Razer than what I think is given. How do you know it lacks a critical, convenient weakness? How do you know exactly how it allegedly destroys worlds and eats stars? Where can I examine the evidence?The Death Star and Sun Crusher were each capable of defending themselves as well. It's just that their destructive output did not translate to equal defensiveness.
Because they couldn't kill it. If it had a critical weakspot, doing so would be pretty easy. Also it states that it took the entire Rakatan empire to defeat it. Not just some hotshot pilot.
Also if it had a weakspot they'd have mentioned that for if it got out in the records. Not just said "oh shit don't let it get out holy **** holy ****."
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, that interpretation is "clear"ly wrong. As it says they stored the tech for potential future use. You can't do that if it's just some new hyperdrive that goes faster. You can revolutionise a technology twice with the same thing.
So revolutionary technology has no potential future use? mmm
Originally posted by Nephthys
It didn't. It ate the stars.
Allegedly.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh please. You're fine with using somethings weight to determine the strength of TK, there's no difference in using the amount of power it takes to destroy something with the Force. Something you've also done. Don't be a dingus.
And you know the exact mechanism for how The World Razer committed its alleged acts?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because they couldn't kill it. If it had a critical weakspot, doing so would be pretty easy. Also it states that it took the entire Rakatan empire to defeat it. Not just some hotshot pilot.Also if it had a weakspot they'd have mentioned that for if it got out in the records. Not just said "oh shit don't let it get out holy **** holy ****."
All it takes to thwart The World Razer's escape is dumping some molten rock on it. I think you're not only overestimating its strength, you're also glossing over the hilarious lack of concrete information we have about it, its capabilities & weaknesses, and how it was defeated. On that note, I find it interesting that a thing that can eat stars and raze planets... is restrained by a planet. 😬
Which is how we circle all the way back around to circumstances and the critical role they play.
The GE stomps. I'll leave the Vong to Q.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a dumb argument. There's an obvious difference between a machine that uses science to do something and an entity that did everything with it's own power. You can't shove a torpedo down the World Razer's waste hatch and have it chain-reaction blow up. The Sun Razer "wasn't that hard to stop" because it's a tiny ship that shoots missiles that cause a Sun to go supernova, it's not a massive being that went toe to toe with an entire civilisation in a straight fight.
There is a difference but not a power difference.
And note, it's just not the Sun Crusher, it's also Naga Sadow's Meditation Sphere. Which is channeling the power of a living being, so it's closer.
Besides from that, the World Razer is obviously harder to destroy than the sphere... but that's really all we know.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All it takes to thwart The World Razer's escape is dumping some molten rock on it. I think you're not only overestimating its strength, you're also glossing over the hilarious lack of concrete information we have about it, its capabilities & weaknesses, and how it was defeated. On that note, I find it interesting that a thing that can eat stars and raze planets... is restrained by a planet. 😬Which is how we circle all the way back around to circumstances and the critical role they play.
The GE stomps. I'll leave the Vong to Q.
I wanna note that the Vong are noted to drop moons on people. Which tends to result in a lot of molten rock, among other things!
The GE are stronger than the Vong, but not drastically so, and 'tech wise' (which is weird to say with the Vong, but biotech is tech) I'd say the Vong have some edge if anything. Their ground units are better. Their Coralskippers required late-model X-wings to match, and are definitely better than TIEs. Their Kor Chokk grand cruisers were, well, smaller than Executor SSDs, but also very large powerful ships well in the class of big command ships of the era, and the only thing that'd outmatch a Worldship is a Death Star.
Basically, if the GE is a 10 in tech and a 10 in resources, the Vong are an 11 in tech and a 5 in resources to start out with.
The entire TOR is probably a 6 in resources (Maybe 7, what with all the hidden empires- who's first priority is ALWAYS to seize worlds for more resources, I'll note) a 6 or so in tech.
The Rakatan, 1 to 3 in resources (1 from their worlds, +1 from Star Forge), and tech... is a bit uneven. Their ships were able to be fought by Tython ships, though Tython did have home-field advantage and better unity and such. Shipwise, I'd kinda place the Rakatan at a 4 or 5, though things like the Star Forge definitely up their average to 6, maybe 7. Going based entirely on what we've seen, and not any hidden speculation stuff.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol I just remembered: Dooku asks Sidious in Son of Dathomir why they can't just send Separatist "armies" to Dathomir to kill Talzin. Sidious tells him that such methods wouldn't defeat a witch that powerful.Talzin > the Confederacy confirmed.
In all likelyhood, she'd simply go and subvert the commander of whatever force into serving her 🙂
