Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I'm so sick of this shit, the world has to unite like they did against Hitler and the oppressors before!
Hitler's philosophy was top down, brought TO a people (in some cases acceptingly, in others not). Cut off the head and the ideology faltered. It had no real existence outside the state. Fascism in general was different- but that failed because it didn't really have much popular support, left to its own.
Radical Islam is not the same; it's embedded into some parts of culture now from the bottom up. It remains a minority thing but applying massive force increases, not decreases, the radicalisation because it makes people otherwise on the edge more likely to see the radicals as correct.
We can (and likely will) destroy its symbols and Islamic State itself has attracted too much global hate to survive long-term, but that doesn't solve the issue. There's no target like 'Nazi Germany' you can crush to shut the whole thing down. You can't fight a belief with bullets.
You start burning the books- as the Nazis did, of course- you just make an enemy of the entire culture, not just its radical side.
But you can't reason with people that are willing to kill themselves to kill others, that is the difference between Hitler and them, they are worse, he stayed in a bunker and they go out sacrificing themselves for a "god."
We have to burn the books and force them into the idea that they will pay for killing the innocent.
We invade, we go back to Iraq, go to Syria, hit them harder with a world united, with more people. Make them wish they never read that book.
These people are taught their death will get them into heaven with 70 virgins, and they will do anything to get their, including killing themselves.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yes, We either attack them and beat them down, or they beat us down. There is no other way around it.You can't force maniacs into doing something they don't want to do.
They will never want to be friendly, we have to beat them so far back as a world united that they know they cannot continue this way.
If we have to burn all the books, we burn them!
We either take them out, or they take us out!
I don't care if we have to abolish radical islam and get rid of the religion, this must stop.
This.
Now, when we go to their villages to take them out, the bad guys are the ones wearing a "I'm a radical muslim" shirt right?
There's an ideological war to be won with cultures in the long-term.
Turning this into the apocalypse leaves no side in the right- and is, incidentally, exactly what this sort of terror attack wants as an outcome.
So your approach is just letting them win, and the bodies will be too numerous to count.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
There's an ideological war to be won with cultures in the long-term.Turning this into the apocalypse leaves no side in the right- and is, incidentally, exactly what this sort of terror attack wants as an outcome.
So your approach is just letting them win, and the bodies will be too numerous to count.
No not letting them win, we beat them back and destroy them. The world can accomplish this, if they work together.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Lots of people won't like this, but Islam, as a whole, needs to be massively reformed. That's really the only way to stop radical Islam.
Yes, reform it, but with force. Cause they ain't going to listen to anything else. This world will come to a tipping point where people are tired of it and they will turn on all Islam.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Bring me a single example of this philosophy working.
Is what we doing now working, the bodies are piling up. You would sit idly by and let them continue?
How man times does this have to happen!
And it worked with Japan and Germany.
The Japanese were lunatics, suicide bombers.
They are reformed now.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yes, reform it, but with force. Cause they ain't going to listen to anything else. This world will come to a tipping point where people are tired of it and they will turn on all Islam.
Reforming it with force would require an absurdly massive amount of said force; it would make Hitler look like a saint compared to the would-be 'reformers'. It would basically be an exterminatus-level affair. In other words, it can't be done.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Does it matter? He was part of ISIS and killed innocent civilians. Race has nothing to with this.
It doesn't matter to me, but it will matter to certain right-wing and anti-refugee camps, as long pig has already demonstrated. If one or more of the attackers were among the Syrian refugees, it will make life much harder for refugees and sway political opinion to a more anti-refugee POV.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
No not letting them win, we beat them back and destroy them. The world can accomplish this, if they work together.
Your logic is deeply flawed.
How does the world unite to destroy a belief system by force? Where does it exist? Where does it come from? What do you do with its adherents? What do you do with the people becoming its adherents? How do you tell an adherent from a non-combatant? What's the line between enemy sympathiser and enemy combatant? When the borders between the two are fuzzy and fluid, where do we draw the line in who we kill?
When we start to bomb their homes and raze their cities, who are the populace going to support? Right now, most Muslims are wary of extremists (and Islam is a highly fractured religion). But once the west comes and starts killing everyone in sight, who will they side with? Whose beliefs will they see as valid?
All your way does is create a thousand thousand more radicals for each one you take down. How does that end? Your way of overwhelming force- what;s the only way to be secure? [i[]Genocide[/i]. You are effectively endorsing the utter annihilation of a culture and all its peoples. It is monstrous beyond belief.
The world is NOT simple. You cannot draw up a easy plan of good guys and bad guys where we always know whom to shoot. It's a nebulous nightmare.
Your way can never, ever work.
The world will come together to beat this- but not in some mad fantasy of endless war.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Reforming it with force would require an absurdly massive amount of said force; it would make Hitler look like a saint compared to the would-be 'reformers'. It would basically be an exterminatus-level affair. In other words, it can't be done.
Yes I know what it would take a lot, do you think telling them to reform peacefully is going to work? Look what is happening. Two weeks ago a plane, now this.
If it takes a world war to end radical islam, then thats what it takes.
Or we all live in fear like the people in Paris now.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Your logic is deeply flawed.How does the world unite to destroy a belief system by force? Where does it exist? Where does it come from? What do you do with its adherents? What do you do with the people becoming its adherents? How do you tell an adherent from a non-combatant? What's the line between enemy sympathiser and enemy combatant? When the borders between the two are fuzzy and fluid, where do we draw the line in who we kill?
When we start to bomb their homes and raze their cities, who are the populace going to support? Right now, most Muslims are wary of extremists (and Islam is a highly fractured religion). But once the west comes and starts killing everyone in sight, who will they side with? Whose beliefs will they see as valid?
All your way does is create a thousand thousand more radicals for each one you take down. How does that end? Your way of overwhelming force- what;s the only way to be secure? [i[]Genocide[/i]. You are effectively endorsing the utter annihilation of a culture and all its peoples. It is monstrous beyond belief.
The world is NOT simple. You cannot draw up a easy plan of good guys and bad guys where we always know whom to shoot. It's a nebulous nightmare.
Your way can never, ever work.
The world will come together to beat this- but not in some mad fantasy of endless war.
But we are at a endless war now, and on the losing end. A war in our own streets, except its against civilians that are not armed.
What is the alternative? If we sit back and do nothing, they will keep coming.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yes I know what it would take a lot, do you think telling them to reform peacefully is going to work? Look what is happening. Two weeks ago a plane, now this.If it takes a world war to end radical islam, then thats what it takes.
Or we all live in fear like the people in Paris now.
This amounts to 'I cannot see how to solve this, so let's just kill everybody to be sure'.
Think again.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
But we are at a endless war now, and on the losing end. A war in the shadows and on our city streets.
We're in nothing like the apocalypse you are proposing. Not a fraction of one percent of it.
This will be won by ideology. It will be won first by moderate Islam rejecting extremism- which is, incidentally, how the forerunner of Islamic State was originally defeated in Iraq. Force didn't work. The people rejecting it did.