Yes I do think about what it is worth, and Russia obviously thought it was worth risking the lives of people in order to violate airspace. So that is totally on them, that is the prize they won for this game.
See there shouldn't be a next time and if there is a next time it will just show Turkey was 100% correct. Don't start nothing won't be nothing.
See you have a mixed up viewpoint there that's hard to follow. A shoot down like this is extreme, so you can't remove Turkey's moral responsibility. Most countries would not have done this.
It's not about proving who was 'right'. You need to get a grip of what this situation is- it's nothing to do with a trivial border overfly that no-one would normally care about. It's about Turkey taking any chance it gets to take a shot at Russia over the Turcomen bombings, hiding behind a technicality to legitimise it.
Now, yes, Russia plays that same game of technicalities all the time- fair enough,. But first, two wrongs don't make a right- and the idea that it is ok to kill someone just to make a point of bravado on the ground s that the other side took the risk with the lives is very dodgy, morally- and second, don't mix up what it is you are approving here. You justified the shoot down on the grounds that it would stop Russia doing it again,. This is untrue. It just means Russia will shoot back next time and really there will not be any clear picture of 'who was right', seeing as Turkey already looks like they set this one up and Russia will have a fair claim to defend any of its planes attacked over Syrian territory. And don't be any under illusions here- if it comes to a strategic air conflict between Turkey and Russia, Russia wins.
But the main reason there won't be a next time is that NATO will now be tearing strips off Turkey behind closed doors to tell them to stop doing it.
Turkey have taken their one shot they can get away with.
Russia thinks it can do whatever it wants. If the incident doesn't cause them to think "maybe we shouldn't act like big ol pieces of shit and violate airspace" then they deserve everything they get.
Like I said, two things will happen: Russia shockingly begins to act like they have a brain and maybe learn a lesson and don't do this shit. But Russia is like the dipshit kid who keeps touching a hot stove, burning himself, and then touching the hot stove again. So if this doesn't teach them a lesson it will show they are too stupid to ever learn any lessons.
They either show the world evidence they have a brain, or they show the world evidence they lack a brain entirely.
I never said it wasn't extreme. But sometimes with people who think they can do whatever they want you need to be extreme with them. Of course it's not merely over borders, I don't think anyone thinks it is...but that is what this harkens back to: this country has to of known certain other countries would take any legitimate chance they could to take a shot a them so why do they provide a huge opportunity for said shot? That is like if I'm deathly allergic to bee's and I then spray myself with bee pheromones or something in order to attract a bunch of bee's.
But as I said- this won't do anything of the sort. It will just mean next time the Turkish fighters will be shot down- though in fact they won't be, because they won't dare attack once Russia is escorting its ground attack craft. If it comes to who can push at the borders the hardest, Russia wins that game as well.
It won't change anyone's opinion of Russia and standing up to the bully does not work when the bully can crush you. Like I said, it was never about that anyway, It was a show of support by Turkey for its allies.
As to why Russia does it- because Russia thrives on conflict scenarios. This plays well for them; they get to play the betrayed victim.
But as I said more then once: the whole Russia learning a lesson thing was just one possibility. They either learn a lesson or they don't learn one. Either option speaks volumes about them, correct?
Do you think escorting them back would of prevented this from ever happening again? Or do you think there is even the slightest, tiny iny weeny chance Russia would take this as a sign of a weakness, see it as an exercise in how far they could dip their toe in..and then make plans to later on try to dip said toe in even further?
If you think that is all a possibility then I would then ask how many times they should be allowed to violate airspace consequence free? Remember now you called Russia a bully and we all know what happens when you let bullies get away with whatever they want.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I don't think it makes any difference to how Russia sees it at all. It just gives them the excuse to arm up further.There never would have been an escort because the Russians- assuming they were there at all, which even the US is not being committal about- was only there a few seconds.
Hey Ush! Posted an incident about Russian bombers hitting a Turkish convoy.
Was this true? Or just more news propaganda?
I'm worried about further escalation.
It's hard to imagine Russia wouldn't see this and think they could take even further liberties next time, and the time after that, and after that. That is classic bully behavior, they see how much shit they can stir up and constantly up the ante.
It's also classic bully behavior to act SHOCKED when someone retaliates against your bullying.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Hey Ush! Posted an incident about Russian bombers hitting a Turkish convoy.Was this true? Or just more news propaganda?
I'm worried about further escalation.
Russia is bombing all over the place there- but I think calling this a 'Turkish' convoy is not really the situation. It's nothing the Russians were not already doing and nothing the Turks care about more than they already do- which is to say, they're pissed in general over the Russian bombing campaign.
But this wasn't some sort of retaliation.
Originally posted by Surtur
It's hard to imagine Russia wouldn't see this and think they could take even further liberties next time, and the time after that, and after that. That is classic bully behavior, they see how much shit they can stir up and constantly up the ante.It's also classic bully behavior to act SHOCKED when someone retaliates against your shitty behavior.
They do it to measure response. They don't need to measure any further- after all, if they genuinely invaded Turkish airspace, the Turks would have had a much cleaner shot.
Now they have a very good answer and a good excuse for militarising further. But they can't do anything if Turkey only does it once, which will likely be the case. So Turkey doesn't really achieve much in the way you mean it.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
They do it to measure response. They don't need to measure any further- after all, if they genuinely invaded Turkish airspace, the Turks would have had a much cleaner shot.Now they have a very good answer and a good excuse for militarising further. But they can't do anything if Turkey only does it once, which will likely be the case. So Turkey doesn't really achieve much in the way you mean it.
So then why is nobody asking these people why they feel they have the right to violate airspace to "measure responses" ? Has anyone just ever flat out asked them that? Has anyone actually called them on their bullshit?
That's not true. Russia has an important propaganda narrative here. If Russia had started putting fighters into the air campaign, they'd look ridiculous because their targets have no aeroplanes to hit, so the only reason could have been to shoot at NATO planes, which would have been a huge deal.
But now a NATO plane fired first. Russia can now put the fighters in.
Not that Russia actually wants to pick a fight here but they'd love a chance to clip Turkey's wings a bit. No pun intendd.
Originally posted by Surtur
So then why is nobody asking these people why they feel they have the right to violate airspace to "measure responses" ? Has anyone just ever flat out asked them that? Has anyone actually called them on their bullshit?
What's the point? You won't get a straight answer and you'd just end up needlessly increasing tensions.
They do it all the time:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33722660
Just part of the game.
All you ever have to do to beat Russia is wait. They're fundamentally weak, long-term.