Originally posted by Kes
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but Smith downloaded himself into Banes body, like Bane was about to do. That helps with the only one Matrix theory because Smith could not change a human form! If it was another Matrix then Smith would change it like all the oders inside the Matrix change when they are taken over by an agent. Doesn't this make sence?
Not necessarily, maybe agent Smith CHOSE not to change the appearance of Bane in the Zion realm, because he needed to look like Bane in order to sneak up and kill Neo. (Since he so far has been unable to kill Neo face to face)
(I can't remember, did Smith copy his entire self and change Bane's appearance inside "The Matrix" or did he just stick his hand into him and copy "something" into him?)
Originally posted by Kes
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but Smith downloaded himself into Banes body, like Bane was about to do. That helps with the only one Matrix theory because Smith could not change a human form! If it was another Matrix then Smith would change it like all the oders inside the Matrix change when they are taken over by an agent. Doesn't this make sence?
Hi Kes! I almost agree with you but I suspect it's not that simple. First of all I think we both suspect that the only reason Smith can download himself into the "real world" is because of Neo's effect on him. Hence, he's the only program we currently know that can do that. Secondly, your argument would imply that there is a way in which programs can "infect" bodies of real people. That's sort of like saying that the machines can somehow "re-wire" your brain so that you behave exactly as the program that has infected you would behave. If this is possible then why haven't the machines done this all along? You know, infect all the people who enter the matrix illegally so that when they return to the real world they can kill off thier comrades thus ending a lot of problems for the machines! Surely, such a solution wouldn't be too difficult for them to obtain seeing as this ability happened "by mistake" i.e. Neo affecting Smith with the result that Smith can now "possess" real human bodies.(That last sentence is full of debate material!) 🙂 The probability of this being a freak occurence would be too small for it not to be an obvious solution.
My point is that humans have to accept the Matrix to be useful as batteries. However, for those who refuse to accept the matrix you can trick them by giving them a reality that claims to be outside the matrix. This alternative can only work if you make sure
that no "agents", in a general sense, can enter the "real world" illusion (Zion). Thus Zioner's don't wake up one day and see Smith's runnning around zion. Neo said "...programs hacking programs...". If all the people in zion are projections of their real selves then all that's happening is that Smith can hack into the projection of Bane i.e. Smith doesn't have a projection of his own in Zion because it's part of the "firewall" quarantine for illegal programs. Only human projections can go from the Matrix to Zion. However, Smith can now "hack" human projections and as such can control Bane. 🙂
I do not claim that this argumment is full proof! I'd like to see you pick holes in it anyway! 😄
Originally posted by Sifer
Also another point. When Smith takes over Bane's mind, he cuts his hand. I believe he is doing this to feel pain for the first time. How can he feel pain? because he is in a real body maybe?
This doesn't PROVE Zion is definitely the real world.
I'm sure when Neo, Morpheus and Trinity are hacked into the Matrix, they can "feel" pain there too...does that make the Matrix the real world? NO, so how does Smith (as Bane) "feeling" pain in the Zion realm make it real?
"Feeling" pain is probably just a new sensation for him gained from "combining" with Bane (Agents wouldn't be very effective if they could feel pain). Much the same way his ability to copy himself came from his "combining" with Neo in M1. Thus, it would be new code to him, and cutting his arm was a way to experience the new sensation.
Therefore, just because Smith can now "feel" pain doesn't automatically mean it's definitely the real world.
In cite i think that smith is know a virus and because of what neo did to him he also gain the ability to copy himself and his know free from the program that he had. Thats why he can leave the matrix and go in to banes body, because he change our took over bane in the matrix. and i do think they can change the human brain, they already have.thats the thing in the back of their necks, a way to transmit information. basacly thats what smith is, a code, information.
Originally posted by Sifer
Also another point. When Smith takes over Bane's mind, he cuts his hand. I believe he is doing this to feel pain for the first time. How can he feel pain? because he is in a real body maybe?
Or maybe because he is in a body (projection of a body, to be pedantic) that was originally meant for a human. Ergo, can feel pain. 🙂
The "get injured in the Matrix=Get injured in Zion" philosophy when anyone is illegally connected to the matrix can also be easily explained by Zion being a Matrix. When you get injured in the matrix in the Real world you should feel the senstation of pain (because the machines are tricking your brain into feeling pain). However, there are very few explanations of how, in reality, the machines can cause physical pain to your body (Punch you in the stomach and you spew out blood in reality) for those who illegally enter the matrix i.e. Morpheus, Trinity,.... One possible solution is for the injuries to be simulated in both the Matrix and Zion. Another explanantion, admittedly, is that the machines have so much control over your Central Nervous System that they can cause you to bleed internally at will.
Originally posted by Kes
Why go to all that? I mean the people who dont believe in the matrix are so few, why bother having a second matrix for them?
Simply because for humans to be batteries they have to accept the reality that is presented to them. The humans can't be forced into belief. They have to chose to believe. Hence by giving them this illusion of freedom those who reject the matrix will still be under the control of the machines. There are 2 problems with this solution, however.
1. Too many people may start to reject the 20th century Matrix. At this point the machines have to "pull the plug" on Zion in order to keep the system in check. 🙂
2. People could begin to realise that even in Zion they are still under control. 🙂
Originally posted by Kes
Why go to all that? I mean the people who dont believe in the matrix are so few, why bother having a second matrix for them?
Also, ask yourself the following questions. Why didn't the mahines kill immediately anyone who rejects the Matrix.?Why allow them to thrive in a real place and cause a rebellion 6 times? Why allow the one to take 23 people and start all over again (6 times, in total)? It's simply because the people who reject the Matrix are not free at all, they are still under control! Batteries for the machines! The illusion is to keep them plugged in while they think they are free. As Smith said to Neo "...we are here because we are not free"! Okay, I took that slightly out of context,...or did I? 😉
Keeping them free under conditions of deceit WOULD NOT WORK. The choice has to be genuine or the subconscious would still reject it, no matter how consciously fooled the people are.
The Machines do not simply kill those who reject the programme because they cannot always identify them. Zion is a vital part of their control plan and the ONLY way they can get The One to co-operate (without whose help the Matrix will crash) because only with a Zion will he be minded to aid them.
Originally posted by Kes
Still they have enough humans to use as batteries, they wouldn't need the 2nd Matrix!Also if human dont believe the 1st his real why believe the 3nd is?
I agree that they do have enough humans to use as batteries so they don't NEED a 2nd Matrix. However, they don't NEED to allow the one to create Zion again. Why don't they just destroy Zion and kill anyone else who may reject the Matrix? Why do they allow the One to create Zion over and over again. After all, the "free" people in zion will only cause more harm to the machines. They are also very small in number, like you said, so killing them will not make the machines lose too much. But for some reason the machines feel the humans are more valuable alive than dead. The only value humans have are that they are batteries for the machines. It's simply because the machines want to keep the humans in check that they create the illusion of freedom from the Matrix, vis a vis Zion. The only way to avoid a real rebellion is to keep the humans thinking they are fighting one.
like Ush says they need zion because they cant identify everybody that rejects the matrix, this way they are relesed by the ones that are free and keep the matrix clean. the architect says that this is the only way people accept the matrix so the anomaly, which is part of the matrix,is necessary. they need each other.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Keeping them free under conditions of deceit WOULD NOT WORK. The choice has to be genuine or the subconscious would still reject it, no matter how consciously fooled the people are.
Please re-read the discussion with the architect.
The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given A CHOICE, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near UNCONCIOUS level...
The choice they were given was to stay in the Matrix or leave. The level the choice is given at can be at the Unconcious level. The point is that once a human accepts his reality the machines can use him as a battery. The problem is the machines can POTENTIALLY create only so many realities and each one they create has the probability that it will be rejected.
The Machines do not simply kill those who reject the programme because they cannot always identify them. Zion is a vital part of their control plan and the ONLY way they can get The One to co-operate (without whose help the Matrix will crash) because only with a Zion will he be minded to aid them.
If "the one" beleives in a False reality (Zion) my argument still fits into the reason you give above. Zion IS a vital part of their control plan. However, The one (Neo) for the first time seems to be realising that even in Zion there is no spoon. Thus allowing for his ability to stop the sentinels. This is why the machines have a major problem on their hands now. The one is beginning to realise that extent of the illusion and the ultimate form of the deception created by the machines.
1st they need the one to be free
2nd morpheous says they underastimated(sp) neo's importance and they need to know where they are in order to take someone, that is close, over.
that simple. as for neo feling the sentinals it could be many things, contact with the source, what smith tried to do or killing smith in the 1st movie.as for stoping them it could have been the hammer.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Keeping them free under conditions of deceit WOULD NOT WORK. The choice has to be genuine or the subconscious would still reject it, no matter how consciously fooled the people are.
You have, in a sense, hit the nail on the head. The reality they choose has to be genuine or there is always the possibility that the humans will wake up because the reality is fake, no matter how conciously convincing it is. This is precisely my last point! Kinda like "The Trumann Show!" 😄
2 matrix's theory
why would they be bothered about losing 250,000 sentinels if its all within a second matrix? if this is the case, the sentinels are only programs, so are dispensable, they are required to create the illusion that it is the real world not the matrix.
also, i think it was the ship that emp'd the sentinels, the 1 that comes along straight after they are destroyed, not neo. he collapses ,maybe due to shock, and the stress of the hwole thing! i mean durnign a short time he has gfought lots of smiths, and generally kicked a lot of ass! this must be exhausting!
Originally posted by Kes
1st they need the one to be free
2nd morpheous says they underastimated(sp) neo's importance and they need to know where they are in order to take someone, that is close, over.
that simple. as for neo feling the sentinals it could be many things, contact with the source, what smith tried to do or killing smith in the 1st movie.as for stoping them it could have been the hammer.
Morpheus was led to believe this by the system.
I agree Neo needs to be alive because he is an essential part of the whole system of control. The important word is "control". Why control if you're not going to get benefit out of the "control"? I don't see the humans revolting as a benefit for the machines. No, the machines control because they want to still use the humans, as batteries!
Originally posted by In_cite
You have, in a sense, hit the nail on the head. The reality they choose has to be genuine or there is always the possibility that the humans will wake up because the reality is fake, no matter how conciously convincing it is. This is precisely my last point! Kinda like "The Trumann Show!" 😄
Then basacly is easyer for humans to believe in a world that is in ruins than the 'normal' world? 🙄
Re: 2 matrix's theory
Originally posted by Psymon
why would they be bothered about losing 250,000 sentinels if its all within a second matrix? if this is the case, the sentinels are only programs, so are dispensable, they are required to create the illusion that it is the real world not the matrix.
...But the machines are not bothered about losing 250000 sentinels. If anyone was bothered it was some folk in Zion! You are right, the sentinels would thus have to be programs. However, Note that this illusion has to be kept up till the very end not only because the people who are freed by the one must believe it BUT, more importantly, the One must believe it! 🙂