Originally posted by Kes
Then basacly is easyer for humans to believe in a world that is in ruins than the 'normal' world? 🙄
I think the point is that it's easier for humans, who reject the matrix, to be distracted by beleiving not only that they are free from the Matrix but also that they are freeing others and fighting the machines. This way they don't have time to worry about whether the world they inhabit is real or not. However, should they start to realise this then really big problems begin. 😉
I have absolutely no need to read the Architect's conversation again. My words stand by exactly what the Archtiect said,. They come FROM what he said. If the reality the Zionists are living in is in any way false then this problem remains. It is nothing to do with them only being usable as batteries once thet accept, is to do with the Matrix failing if they have not made a GENUINE choice to be in there or not. If Zion is false then NO genuine choice has been made. As you seem to agree with this then the real world cannot be a Matrix or this choice would never have been made and the system would not work.
If the machines destroy Zion and do not set up a new one then the Matrix would be destroyed at the end of the next cycle because the whole cycle with The One would not happen, and why the hell would they want that? Zion is vital to the Matrix's survival, which is why they allow it to exist.
Furthermore, permanently destroying Zion buggers up the whole choice part of things.
Re: Re: 2 matrix's theory
Originally posted by In_cite
...But the machines are not bothered about losing 250000 sentinels. If anyone was bothered it was some folk in Zion! You are right, the sentinels would thus have to be programs. However, Note that this illusion has to be kept up till the very end not only because the people who are freed by the one must believe it BUT, more importantly, the One must believe it! 🙂
I just cant believe that a person can wake from one matrix and still be inside a matrix.When you wake up, you wake up! theres no midle term.
❌
If Zion is in fact the real world, then there is no need for the machines to allow it to exist. The machines could just kill any humans that were part of the .1% who reject the program. They have plenty of humans, and can "grow" more to replace the ones they lose. Remember the Architect said "...if left unchecked...", Zion could in fact be the check. Allowing the machines to keep even the .1%, at least until the version of Neo realizes something's wrong.
Random Thought:
If the Matrix is in it's 6th version, and was "rebooted" each time The One reached the source, why does Merovignian remember the previous 5 "one's?" Shouldn't he have been rebooted along with everything else?
Originally posted by TomkatRandom Thought:
If the Matrix is in it's 6th version, and was "rebooted" each time The One reached the source, why does Merovignian remember the previous 5 "one's?" Shouldn't he have been rebooted along with everything else?
he wouldn't be rebooted because he is not part of the matrix, he just existes in it.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I have absolutely no need to read the Architect's conversation again...
Rather sure of ourselves,...arent' we? 🙂
Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]
...this problem remains. It is nothing to do with them only being usable as batteries once thet accept, is to do with the Matrix failing if they have not made a GENUINE choice to be in there or not. If Zion is false then NO genuine choice has been made. As you seem to agree with this then the real world cannot be a Matrix or this choice would never have been made and the system would not work.
The failure of the Matrix stems from it's inability to create a totally convincing illusion of reality. You say GENUINE choice as if evryone in the Matrix has made the concious choice to be there. There are only few people who are even aware that there is such a thing as "The Matrix". The machines are happy as long as people don't question the illusion. However, what do you do when people start to question your illusion? Do you allow them to be released from the system only for them to cause more people to question the reality of the Matrix? I agree a genuine choice to remain has to be made in order for the system to work,...but therein lies the power of the deception. The humans that are free genuinely accept the alternative to the Matrix. The trick is this alternative, that they have willingly accepted, is an illusion. The reason why the anomaly is so hard to avoid is because even with this "solution" people can still question the reality of Zion and as such CHOOSE (the problem) to reject it, causing it to ultimately fail. As such things have to be kept in check by distracting the "Zionites". Let them be busy with trying to free people from the matrix. They have less time to think about the "reality" of thier "reality"! 🙂
If the machines destroy Zion and do not set up a new one then the Matrix would be destroyed at the end of the next cycle because the whole cycle with The One would not happen, and why the hell would they want that? Zion is vital to the Matrix's survival, which is why they allow it to exist.
[/B]
UUuummm...No. The Matrix will be intact because there would be no more "Zionites" coming in and messing things up.
Furthermore, permanently destroying Zion buggers up the whole choice part of things. [/B]
No...if they did destroy zion people were still free to choose to remain in the Matrix or not. The difference now would be if you choose to leave the Machines will ensure that you 'cause no more trouble by killing you and not waiting till Zion becomes a Nation of disgruntled humans who keep messing up your system. you seem to be comfortable with the idea that the machines like having Zionites disturbing them since the machines allow Zion to be rebuilt over and over and over again! 😉
Originally posted by Ushgarak
As I just said, first they cannot always identify those humans, second the whole concept of choice is buggered without Zion, thirdly Zion is vital for the Path of the One without which the Matrix cannot survive.Zion is a symptomn of choice. The machines simply HAVE to allow it to exist.
Suppose morpheus walks up to someone and say's "...take the red pill". At that point in time the person being offered the choice is still part of the system. As such if the system wanted to you could have the place swarming with agents in no time to kill the person who has just swallowed the pill, thus not increasing Zion's intake.
Consider this,... if you will.
Suppose we are at the start of the whole control thing. No Zion, just the Matrix. Suppose further that someone does something that defies explanation, by accident (e.g doges bullets or fly's from one building to the next). The more frequently these events happen the more unbeleivable the system gets. Eventually people will begin to question the reality of their universe (The matrix). As such, the system breaks down because too many people are doing things that the machines didn't cater for and as such are disbelieving the system. So they build another Matrix which is more "perfect" than the first but still humans are irrational and as such question this Matrix which eventually leads to a system crash. The problem is they always have the ability to choose, thus ultimately, the ability to accept or reject the system. The computers are not infinite in their ability to cope with all the possibilities and as such cater for all the eventualities that will lead to the ultimate choice of accepting or rejecting the system. The answer, give them an alternative (Zion). This alternative is an illusion. However, everytime you give them the alternative (Zion) make sure that you have learnt enough about what made them reject The Matrix in the first place. It is this information, among other things, that "the one" has to reinsert in the Matrix so that it becomes more able to cater for such irrational behaviour of the humans. It is reloaded. This is one of the reasons why the one is important in the cycle.
Zion IS important for the whole concept of choice. The machines DO allow it to exist (if only as a Matrix or a part of it 😉). The point is that Zion is also an extremely deceptive form of control.
😉
Originally posted by In_citeThe failure of the Matrix stems from it's inability to create a totally convincing illusion of reality. You say GENUINE choice as if evryone in the Matrix has made the concious choice to be there. There are only few people who are even aware that there is such a thing as "The Matrix". The machines are happy as long as people don't question the illusion. However, what do you do when people start to question your illusion? Do you allow them to be released from the system only for them to cause more people to question the reality of the Matrix?
No...if they did destroy zion people were still free to choose to remain in the Matrix or not. The difference now would be if you choose to leave the Machines will ensure that you 'cause no more trouble by killing you and not waiting till Zion becomes a Nation of disgruntled humans who keep messing up your system. you seem to be comfortable with the idea that the machines like having Zionites disturbing them since the machines allow Zion to be rebuilt over and over and over again! 😉
They dont chose to be in the matrix, its not like that. They have the power of choice like do i go left or right (to make things simple).This helps human believe they are free.But by allowing this to happen a glitch was created, the one. They need Zion because, for the uptenth time, the machines cant locate all that dont believe. And a person who doesn't believe is stuck in the matrix it would cause the crash. i think you are the one who needs to read the architec dialoge again.📖
Yes, I am sure of myself, just as you seem to be sure of yourself, but we've been through this before with people making better arguments than you and I am confident of my thoughts. I did NOT in any way imply that people had made a conscious choice. That is a misreading by you. I only said that the choice was genuine is important. I do not see what you do not understand about this simple concept. It would make NO DIFEERENCE to the problem if they THINK they are somewhere they are free. The SUBCONSCIOUS problem would remain. The ONLY way Zion works is if it is REAL. If it is part of the Matrix it solves absolutely no issues at all. NO conscious escape from the Matrix into a false world would solve that problem. The subconscious KNOWS. It has nothing to do with conscious thought at all.
Basically, for it to work, someone has to CHOOSE to be in the Matrix or choose to be free. NOT choose to THINK they are free or to be in a simulated world. Matrix or ACTUALLY free. THAT is the choice, and as it happens it is made subconciously. "Thinking about the reality of their reality" is a nonsensical point. No amount of thinking makes any difference at all.
If Zion is destroyed the cycle of the One goes. Zionists messing things up does NOTHING. But the path of the One being messed up destroys the Matrix, and it is this that the machines worry about. Even without Zion, the Anomaly remains, and the anomaly will destroy the Matrix. This, again, was made clear.
Zion is still a conceptually vital part of the choice inherent to the Matrix so your idea that it would be ok if they were just killed seem faulty.
in_cite, no amount of examples you give will change the fundamental flaw in your idea- if Zion is an illusion it does not work. It does not matter how much people believe they are free. It ONLY matters if what they are in is real or not. If Zion was not real, it would not work regardless of the quality of the deception.
Originally posted by Kes
They dont chose to be in the matrix, its not like that. They have the power of choice like do i go left or right (to make things simple).This helps human believe they are free.But by allowing this to happen a glitch was created, the one. They need Zion because, for the uptenth time, the machines cant locate all that dont believe. And a person who doesn't believe is stuck in the matrix it would cause the crash. i think you are the one who needs to read the architec dialoge again.📖
Hi kes! 🙂
I agree that the problem is choice (that's obvious!) As I have already explained human beings are irrational in that sometimes they make choices that the machines haven't catered for. This will ultimately lead to a system crash (and not the creation of the one!) because the anomaly "...creates fluctuations in the simplest of equations". Even simple situations can be affected by so many different choices that humans can make. Humans aren't inherently deterministic. This problem arose in the first and 2nd Matrix B4 the one came on th scene. There was no Zion!
😉
People do choose whether to remain in the Matrix or not. At a concious level they "...take the red pill". At a subconcius level they accept the world they live in. They go about thier day to day lives without saying "...there's something that's not right about this place". The option is always there for them to leave. The illusion is to keep them from realising this.
As to those who decide to leave the Matrix they don't have to know these people in advance. However, when the people are about to be unplugged they are still connected to the system and as such , at that point in time, can be dealt with.
😎
Originally posted by Ushgarak
in_cite, no amount of examples you give will change the fundamental flaw in your idea- if Zion is an illusion it does not work. It does not matter how much people believe they are free. It ONLY matters if what they are in is real or not. If Zion was not real, it would not work regardless of the quality of the deception.
😄 That's a bit harsh, don't you think. I fear that you have been mistaken in the reason for my expostion. It is not, as you may have assumed, an attempt to convince you of my beliefs. That I cannot do BECAUSE you are entitled to your choice. You may either believe what I write or you may reject what I write. However, if my purpose, on seeing how adamant you are about the position and idea you have concerning the Matrix philosophy, is simply to IN_CITE you into making more bold your claims. To the effect that you would dismiss anything else that I put forward THEN surely the deception is strong. The trick is to get you into thinking you are making an infromed choice that is deviod of my advances while all the while such an informed position is where you are suppoed to end up. At this point you may say to yourself "...what a load of crap". However, the fact remains. Humans can be decieved and as such they can always be controlled! Very soon you may choose to terminate this discussion,...or not. However, the fact remains that all I have to do to make sure we don't discuss again is be very offensive toward you (Not in a million years 😉 ). Humans are not beyond control. However, the problem of choice is always a factor and as such as long as humans are faced with an illusion the control will nevr be perfect.
😄
Originally posted by nopy
If Zion is actually the real world then how did neo 'feel' the sentinels ?the two Matrix theory is the easiest way to explain it away. Whats your explanation Ush ?
It could be from:
-What Smith tried to do to him
-Could be a simple evolution of the one
-Or from the suspicious red candy that the Oracle gave him, it could be some sorte(sp) of program.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The conscious decision to take the red pill only comes up if they are being rescued but their subconscious decision is irrelevant to that.And you cannot seperate the Anomaly and the One. The people create the Anomaly and the Aomaly's ultimate expression is the One.
The one exists BECAUSE of the anomaly. He may be an Anomaly in that he is not like the other humans,...he has more powers. However, he exists because the Anomaly (problem of choice) exists! That is why the Anomaly is both "...beginning and the end" as said by the Architect. It was choice that created the need for Zion, the alternative form of control and it was choice (Neo's choice) that would determine the salvation or destruction of Zion!
🙂