WBHulk vs. Barry Allen.

Wanna know what the most insane aspect of Wally's IMP of the Martian was?

They were both running laps around the world, equalish in speed.

Wally LAPS him, runs behind him....and punches him. In the same plane of force. With enough force to send him into escape velocity.

As an analogy, imagine two race cars matching each other at 100mph - then the first one accelerates so quickly, he laps the 2nd., who's still chugging at 100mph. Then crashes into it with sufficient speed to send it out of the stadium, in the same direction that car #2 was going at 100mph. THAT'S how fast he was going.

Moreover, the term 'Flash Fact' was coined by Barry. Not Flash Boast, or Flash Hyperbole. Fact. He really IS smacking them with that mass. The lack of atomisation, or the tanking of said punch, is nothing to do with the Flash, and everything to do with plot armour and/or durability of the victim.

Carver has Hulks brain, don't get to scientific on him or he will get angry.

Originally posted by Juntai
It was 250,000 years before he came to Earth and fought Superman.

I know the story is set at an earlier time, but it's a flashback that was released after DOS. If that arc expanding on DD's capabilities during DOS is allowed for DD, then later arcs that further establish the abilities of WWH should be allowed to because it's the SAME hulk. Later arcs just fleshed out his abilities during WWH a bit more and revealed his limits when he stops holding back the way he was during the WWH story line.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's not what he meant.

You can use DOS feats for HP because he's a more powerful version. You can't use them the other way around.

No. Like Grimes said, it was before. LONG before.

And why can we do this for HP Doomsday and DOS Doomsday? Because they are one of the same. WWH and WBH are one of the same. WBH is just WWH not holding back anymore. Its like using Thor or Superman not giving a care anymore. Its not like it happened in one arc either, WBH spread through multiples of comics. Something that progressed for yrs. You might as well tell us we can not use planet Hulk fts for WWH.

Originally posted by carver9
And why can we do this for HP Doomsday and DOS Doomsday? Because they are one of the same. WWH and WBH are one of the same. WBH is just WWH not holding back anymore. Its like using Thor or Superman not giving a care anymore. Its not like it happened in one arc either, WBH spread through multiples of comics. Something that progressed for yrs. You might as well tell us we can not use planet Hulk fts for WWH.

Originally posted by h1a8
If WWH goes WB then he isn't WWH anymore. If you want WWH to be able to go WB then you must specify it in the op. Problem solved.

So you admit DOS Doomsday fts shouldnt be used for HP Doomsday?

Originally posted by carver9
So you admit DOS Doomsday fts shouldnt be used for HP Doomsday?

Doomsday is Doomsday. Isn't this what you've ALWAYS said?

Holy cripes, are some of you that dense? Pr and I went through this issue several times. It's not that complex.

HP DD >>> DOS DD. Therefore you can use DOS DD feats to support HP DD.

WBH >>> WWH. Therefore you can use WWH feats to support WBH.

How can anybody think it's okay to use feats from a stronger version of a character?

The thread says WBH vs Barry Allen. Stop the nonsense.

Originally posted by Badabing
Holy cripes, are some of you that dense?

😛

Ha.

Basically, Carver wants free reign to power scale.

Savage Hulk/Indestructible Hulk could punch through time. Therefore, WBH can...I don't know, EAT time or something.

Well the mods are obviously getting agitated at this tangent and my points are being straw maned anyway so I'm going to clarify my point and then let this drop. WBH is nothing more than WWH when he stops holding back, we know this because it was specifically noted that even during the WWH arc he was still holding back. So WBH is just WWH NOT holding back anymore. So if there's a WWH thread using the stipulation that he's not holding back, feats from WBH should be applicable because it's the SAME hulk. The whole WBH thing was just a specific demonstration of what WWH was capable of doing when he finally stopped holding back. In the WWH arc he was capable of going WBH at any time, he just didn't because he was HOLDING BACK.

In regards to DD, yes his battle with the Guardian's technically took place before DOS, but it came out in a different arc that was portraying DD at a higher level than what he showed in DOS. Am I really the only one seeing the double standard here? What's more, it was revealed in HP that Doomsday was at his core, an evolved kryptonian. That means that when DOS DD came out of the ground he was a kryptonian who was ko'd then wrapped up and deprived of solar energy for thousands of years so WHY do we assume that DD was as/more powerful in DOS than he was when he fought the guardians when Superman even noticed that DD was becoming stronger as the fight went on during DOS and he didn't demonstrate the full measure of his abilities as seen in the Flashback?

Originally posted by carver9
And why can we do this for HP Doomsday and DOS Doomsday? Because they are one of the same. WWH and WBH are one of the same. WBH is just WWH not holding back anymore. Its like using Thor or Superman not giving a care anymore. Its not like it happened in one arc either, WBH spread through multiples of comics. Something that progressed for yrs. You might as well tell us we can not use planet Hulk fts for WWH.

You were told why.

Originally posted by carver9
Well the mods are obviously getting agitated at this tangent and my points are being straw maned anyway so I'm going to clarify my point and then let this drop. WBH is nothing more than WWH when he stops holding back, we know this because it was specifically noted that even during the WWH arc he was still holding back. So WBH is just WWH NOT holding back anymore. So if there's a WWH thread using the stipulation that he's not holding back, feats from WBH should be applicable because it's the SAME hulk. The whole WBH thing was just a specific demonstration of what WWH was capable of doing when he finally stopped holding back. In the WWH arc he was capable of going WBH at any time, he just didn't because he was HOLDING BACK.

In regards to DD, yes his battle with the Guardian's technically took place before DOS, but it came out in a different arc that was portraying DD at a higher level than what he showed in DOS. Am I really the only one seeing the double standard here? What's more, it was revealed in HP that Doomsday was at his core, an evolved kryptonian. That means that when DOS DD came out of the ground he was a kryptonian who was ko'd then wrapped up and deprived of solar energy for thousands of years so WHY do we assume that DD was as/more powerful in DOS than he was when he fought the guardians when Superman even noticed that DD was becoming stronger as the fight went on during DOS and he didn't demonstrate the full measure of his abilities as seen in the Flashback?

Jesus... The point is so far above your head it's in low orbit.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You were told why.

Jesus... The point is so far above your head it's in low orbit.

I'm not bringing this up to make the mods angry. Answer this, what is World War Hulk fighting to the best of his abilities? What is Flash fighting to the best of his abilities? What is Superman fighting to the best of his abilities? Simple concept to me. You cant say that WWH is limited to what was shown in that arc because World Breaker appeared. The rules placed limitations on the character... he is NOT fighting to the best of his abilities like the other characters on the forum. Do you get what I'm saying? If Flash can fight at Pico second speeds and higher. If Superman can blitz around like a anime character... if Martian Manhunter can use all of his abilities during one fight and all of this ignores their comic counterpart, then why cant Greenscar fight with his locks off as well?

Originally posted by carver9
I'm not bringing this up to make the mods angry. Answer this, what is World War Hulk fighting to the best of his abilities? What is Flash fighting to the best of his abilities? What is Superman fighting to the best of his abilities? Simple concept to me. You cant say that WWH is limited to what was shown in that arc because World Breaker appeared. The rules placed limitations on the character... he is NOT fighting to the best of his abilities like the other characters on the forum. Do you get what I'm saying? If Flash can fight at Pico second speeds and higher. If Superman can blitz around like a anime character... if Martian Manhunter can use all of his abilities during one fight and all of this ignores their comic counterpart, then why cant Greenscar fight with his locks off as well?

You're not listening. People know what you're saying. People accept that there was a restriction placed on the Hulk.

What you're not understanding is that YOU caused this. Not just you, but people like you, along the same lines as you, making stupid arguments that just straight up ruined threads. Nobody WANTED this separation to be made in the first place.

It's the same reason a separation was made with the Sentry, and on a larger scale why we have to restrict certain characters based on the arcs they appear in.

This comes up every few months. People him and haw and get all antsy about it, while neglecting to remember the fact that the behaviour of people hasn't changed one bit. You want the separation to be removed? Prove to Badabing that it's worth doing, as it's his call in the end.

Bump

Originally posted by carver9
I'm not bringing this up to make the mods angry. Answer this, what is World War Hulk fighting to the best of his abilities? What is Flash fighting to the best of his abilities? What is Superman fighting to the best of his abilities? Simple concept to me. You cant say that WWH is limited to what was shown in that arc because World Breaker appeared. The rules placed limitations on the character... he is NOT fighting to the best of his abilities like the other characters on the forum. Do you get what I'm saying? If Flash can fight at Pico second speeds and higher. If Superman can blitz around like a anime character... if Martian Manhunter can use all of his abilities during one fight and all of this ignores their comic counterpart, then why cant Greenscar fight with his locks off as well?

This ignores everything about the Hulk, and what makes him the Hulk. It ignores the whole concept and point behind the Heart of the Monster storyline, and the WWH storyline.

In WWH, Hulk was the angriest he had ever been (up until then). He had a life, an entire planet, a family - all snatched away from him, by those he had once called friends. By a bomb created and planted by Reed, Stark and all the other big brains.

Egged on by his Warbound, he stewed and simmered, until he came to Earth. And instead of owning up to it, these so-called friends still tried to fight him.

And THEN, he finds out, his own Warbound, Miek, had set the bomb off.

This drove him to even newer heights of anger.

Despite this, he was still constantly crunching the gamma maths, to ensure nobody died.

In the Heart of the Monster storyline, he was finally given his wish, to fully let go without consequence. Melt his opponents, destroy the planets, whatever he wanted to do - with Betty, who was his equal and could take whatever he could dish out, AND hand it back.

So, what's the point of this summary? Hulk (Savage etc) CANNOT get to WWH levels, just by being in a fight. Full potential does NOT mean he's suddenly angry enough to become WWH, and then, become WBH. Pak and other writers have shown that it took a specific set of circumstances to create WWH, and WBH. He doesn't go Worldbreaker just because Spidey said one too many yo mamma jokes, or even because he found out Tony was responsible for the gamma bomb. He needs extreme external stimuli (losing his wife, unborn child, planet, being egged on by his friends, being betrayed by friends, wishing for a zero consequence fight etc) in order to reach those heights of anger.

Whereas Barry can go 0-10000 in a heartbeat, no stimuli needed.

TL;DR: as usual, you're arguing powerset (angrier Hulk gets, stronger he gets!!!!) and ignoring character.

Edit: Not sure why you're whining, anyway. Thread said it was WBH...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This ignores everything about the Hulk, and what makes him the Hulk. It ignores the whole concept and point behind the Heart of the Monster storyline, and the WWH storyline.

In WWH, Hulk was the angriest he had ever been ([b]up until then). He had a life, an entire planet, a family - all snatched away from him, by those he had once called friends. By a bomb created and planted by Reed, Stark and all the other big brains.

Egged on by his Warbound, he stewed and simmered, until he came to Earth. And instead of owning up to it, these so-called friends still tried to fight him.

And THEN, he finds out, his own Warbound, Miek, had set the bomb off.

This drove him to even newer heights of anger.

Despite this, he was still constantly crunching the gamma maths, to ensure nobody died.

In the Heart of the Monster storyline, he was finally given his wish, to fully let go without consequence. Melt his opponents, destroy the planets, whatever he wanted to do - with Betty, who was his equal and could take whatever he could dish out, AND hand it back.

So, what's the point of this summary? Hulk (Savage etc) CANNOT get to WWH levels, just by being in a fight. Full potential does NOT mean he's suddenly angry enough to become WWH, and then, become WBH. Pak and other writers have shown that it took a specific set of circumstances to create WWH, and WBH. He doesn't go Worldbreaker just because Spidey said one too many yo mamma jokes, or even because he found out Tony was responsible for the gamma bomb. He needs extreme external stimuli (losing his wife, unborn child, planet, being egged on by his friends, being betrayed by friends, wishing for a zero consequence fight etc) in order to reach those heights of anger.

Whereas Barry can go 0-10000 in a heartbeat, no stimuli needed.

TL;DR: as usual, you're arguing powerset (angrier Hulk gets, stronger he gets!!!!) and ignoring character.

Edit: Not sure why you're whining, anyway. Thread said it was WBH... [/B]

Excellent post. I couldn't have explained it better.

of course hulk shouldn't be able to hit flash. that was never the question. the question (as regards this battle to me) is can flash ko someone of this level by punching them? there is no proof whatsoever to indicate he could, and maybe more importantly, we don't know how much it would take TO ko a hulk of this level. he wasn't even noticing the destruction of a planet right beside him. we know the angrier he is the faster he heals and the greater his durability.

do we assume flash just throws a billion IMPs? i don't. it's not been on panel and flash has plenty of on panel feats that i don't need to extrapolate anymore.

this hulk is also.....absurdly more powerful than any other hulk. so is he going to phase his brain? i still doubt it. i still have doubts he could phase through the radiation, nor do i know how fast this hulk would heal from it. too many unknowns. how would forum flash win for sure? i don't know. how would this hulk beat flash? don't know that either. stalemate i guess.

i have no issue with saying flash does all this stuff in a femtosecond. but that needs to be applied to all his fights then.

i STILL haven't heard a SINGLE person say that he'd beat superman every bit as easily. ss too. hal, thor, thanos? they'd have no chance. so, i'm asking, again--where do you stop? odin? galactus? if you're going with it, how far are you going? in fact, he'd have literally thought about a trillion ways to win EACH fight, BEFORE any of them even know the battle started. flash would literally calculate and kill superman, hal, ss, thor and thanos, ALTOGETHER, before they fired a single neuron. if everyone is ok with that, cool. then TAKE the stance. i'm not.

again, are we basing our tier thread on how characters perform in comics, or how they would perform in forums? and if it is in barry's CHARACTER to NOT always use his powers to the fullest, then to argue he wouldn't here is NOT disallowing the no PIS issue. it is ENFORCING CIS. to me, on THIS forum, i've always seen the CIS rule as being the more important. if it's the other, we're cbr. i think the nature of PIS/CIS is more the question raised by this thread.

The IMP was essentially an explanation for Flash throwing top tier level punches. He takes on the relativistic effects [as speedforce basically lets him select any or no effects of speed], of mass moving at high speed. At high speed his mass increases at an exponential rate, typically has attained a mass that would let him trade blows with a top tier character [give and take both]. At his upper end, we've seen him reach the mass of white dwarf stars.

But you still have to account that he's fast enough to deliver 100s per second against slower characters, if he wishes.

Do you feel it's enough to harm him?

You don't see him raping Superman on the forum because Superman is just as fast or sometimes faster than Flash, depending on the story, that's why. Outside of time travel style feats, or Flash being regulated to speed based tasks in JLA. Supes has proven to outmanuever or run down Flash in and out of combat when it matters, pretty much every single time.