Originally posted by Col. ValerianThe fact that Fisto is able to defeat Grievous and the obvious knowledge that Vader's saber skills > Fisto's.
Gordon Bennet, again LEGENDS CONTINUITY ONLY! Antoine flat-out stated that he wasn't using anything from that dumb cartoon.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Originally posted by Syndicate
Since I see you hold the same views care to counter?
Vader is basically the stronger version of Anakin Skywalker. This Anakin Skywalker who at his strongest beat Count Dooku. With his time in the suit and the weakness he received, he overcame them through trianing and experience. This made him expand his single minded Djem So technique, into a hybrid style made up of aspects of all seven forms. This turned him into what Palpatine called, the greatest Jeei killer of all time beating the former holder of that position in Genral Grevious and others such as Darth Malgus.
Palpatine regards Darth Vader as the greatest jedi killer of all time:
Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.
-- Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force
Now to there respective showings. First lets get over Vader's handicaps in his speed and mobility.
Vader's armor provides him with great mobility in spite of his nerves and muscles being severely damaged:
Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles, providing him with great mobility and strength despite his severely damaged muscles and nerves.
-- The New Essential Guide To Weapons And Technology
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3914756-0620353765-32566.jpg
should also be noted that Vader was stated by Ferus as being faster than anyone he had ever seen move, aside from Yoda. That includes Vader himself as a Padawan, when he could move so fast that he seemed to be everywhere at once:
Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life.
But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.
He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.
-- Jedi Quest: The School of Fear
Here are just a few showings of his speed.
Windu vs Grevious. That battle is considered a stalemate I believe. However when you consider who Windu is, if the battle were on more even ground where the two didn't have to worry about staying in the train Windu would have won. This is backed by how Dooku, while he has a deep understanding of Grevious' style was able to disarm the cyborg general. Windu is seen as the complete equal to Dooku, so this was of course due to an unstable environment that allowed Grevious to make it as far as he did. While I'm not saying in legends he(Grevious) is weak, he shouldn't be on that level. Windu being on level of Dooku would allow him to be able to while not crush, but not be statemed, if the battle were on neutral ground. One thing I would also like to point out is that Windu while under vaapad was able to stay on par the likes of ROTS Sidious. There is a big gap in between Grevious and Sidious at full power. The speed, and power are extremely different
Grevious vs the Jedi on Hypori. One sentence. They were all tired. Grevious wouldn't be able to handle Shaak Ti and Ki adi Mundi and the others if they were at full health.
Now onto Vader's showings.
Part 2 coming in a sec.
Despite the fact that he is still not used to his suit, Vader kills Jedi Master Bol Chatak:
Bol Chatak had unwound her headcloth, revealing her vestigial horns, and had ignited the lightsaber Shryne thought she'd had sense enough to ditch when they were captured. Vader whirled, watching Chatak as she began to stalk him, prisoners and troopers alike giving her wide berth. "So much the better that one of you survived," he said, waving his lightsaber back and forth in front of him. "The commandos saved your life, and now you hope to save theirs, is that it?"
Chatak held her blue blade at shoulder height. "My only intent is to take you out of the hunt." Vader's angled his blade to point toward the ground. "You won't be the first Jedi I've killed." Their blades met with an explosion of light. Fearing that the prisoners would use the distraction to scatter, Salvo's men hurried in to form a cordon around them. Pressed in among everyone,
Shryne lost sight of Chatak and Vader, but he could tell from the angry clashes of their blades that the duel was fast and furious. Momentarily immobilized, he allowed himself to be swept up in the surge of the crowd, so that he might be raised up over the heads of those in front of him. For a moment he was.
Just long enough to glimpse Chatak, all grace and speed, working her way into her opponent's space. Her moves were broad and circular, and the lightsaber seemed an extension of her. Vader, by contrast, was clumsy, and his strikes were mostly vertical. He was, however, a full head taller than Chatak and incredibly powerful. At various times his stances and techniques mimicked those of Ataru and Soresu, but Vader appeared to lack a style of his own, and executed his moves stiffly. With a whirling motion Chatak got far enough inside Vader's long reach to inflict a forearm wound. But Vader scarcely reacted to the hit, and instead of seeing cauterized flesh
Shryne saw sparks and smoke fountain through Vader's slashed glove. Then he lost sight of them again. Wedged into the crowd, he wondered if he could use the Force to call one of the trooper's blaster rifles into his grip. At the same time he hoped that Starstone had abandoned her lightsaber at the landing platform, and wouldn't attempt to join her Master against Vader.
We need to learn what happened to the Jedi, he tried to send to her. Our time for dealing with Vader will come. Be patient. He wondered if he was right. Maybe he should attempt to reach Chatak, weapon or no. Maybe his life was meant to end here, on Murkhana. He looked to the Force for guidance, and the Force restrained him.
A pained cry cut through the chaos, and the crowd of prisoners parted just long enough for Shryne to see Chatak down on her knees in front of Vader, her sword arm amputated at the elbow. Vader had simply beaten her into submission , and now, with a flick of his bloodshine blade, he decapitated her.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
He duels and easilly defeats 2 skilled Jedi Knights, who were using radically different lightsaber styles in an attempt to unbalance him, while merely toying with them. He then proceeds to injure one Padawan and defeat another:
As was the case with many Jedi Knights, the two were familiar with accounts of what had happened on Geonosis when Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker had gone after the Sith Lord, Count Dooku. And so Forte and Kulka went in as a team, each of them employing a radically different lightsaber style, determined to off-balance Vader.
But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault. Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved. Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.
Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed. Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.
Seeing the two Jedi Knights drop to their knees, wincing in pain, Padawan Klossi Anno broke from where she was helping Jambe and Nam engage the stormtroopers and got to Vader one step ahead of Starstone. Sidestepping, Vader slashed her across the back, sending her sprawling across the balcony; then he whirled on Forte and Kulka just as they were clambering to their feet and decapitated them. From behind Vader came Jambe and Nam, neither of whom was an experienced fighter and both of whom Vader immediately eliminated from the fight, amputating Jambe's right arm, and Nam's right leg.
To her horror, Starstone realized she was suddenly alone with Vader, who immediately signaled his stormtroopers to leave her to him, and to devote themselves to slaughtering the few Wookiees who remained on the tier. "Now you, Padawan," he said, as he began to circle her. Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with aver. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion.
So she retreated, altering her strategy and calming herself. Vader is so tall, so imposing... But perhaps I can get under or inside his guard as Master Chatak did "Your thoughts give you away, Padawan," he said in a flash. "You mustn't take the time to think. You must act on impulse. Instead of repressing youranger, call on it! Make use of it to defeat me."
Starstone feigned an attack, then sidestepped and slashed at him. Shifting to a one-handed hold on his lightsaber, he parried her blade and lunged forward. She snapped aside in the nick of time, but he kept coming at her, answering her increasingly frantic strikes with harsher ones and driving her inexorably toward the rim of the balcony. He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back...She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems. Ducking out from under a broad sweep of the crimson blade, she somersaulted to safety.
But only for a moment.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
Vader frequently trained with droids programmed with the knowledge and skills of a dozen martial artists:
He left his lightsaber clipped to his belt. Ordinarily he would have used it to practice on the dueling droids that had been specially designed and constructed to test his mettle. Programmed with the knowledge and skills of a dozen different martial artists, and armed with deadly cutting or impact weapons, they were formidable opponents indeed, and had been an integral part of Sith training since time immemorial. But not everything was about the lightsaber. There were other attributes, other weapons in his arsenal, that needed exercising as well.
-- Death Star
That's debatable in and of itself. I have seen many on CV and other debate forums who would argue Anakin is the superior. While I may not hold that view myself I'd just like to note that your statement is in no way a fact or supported by the majority of people.
Yes, at a point when he is enraged by Dooku's goading and guided by Palpatine into accepting his anger.
I'm sure you know as well as I that statements like that don't mean much when doing a feat by feat and character by character analysis. Especially in a thread like this when we're discussing only one aspect of said "greatest Jedi killer."
I agree. Vader's speed and mobility weaknesses are over exaggerated in debates. This doesn't change the fact that he will be less agile then his former incarnation or someone like Grievous who can dodge force pushes in a narrow corridor. I also agree that Vader's form was restructured to account for this but I'd like to note that Vader has to rely on power blows and a relentless forward assault when going on the offensive rather then a swarm of strikes coming from every angle like Grievous due to this hampered mobility. Vader's style accounts for this and keeps these weaknesses from being exploited but it cannot make up for it and it still limits Vader in the ways which he can attack.
And that's fine and not something I would put outside of Vader's capabilities.
I'm sorry to have to prove you wrong here but the passage specifically notes that the environment favored Windu over Grievous in that fight.
"For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long." - Labrynth of Evil.
Speculation is fine but when the source specifically notes something that's when I can't really abide direct contradiction.
Can't say I'm more impressed with that feat then Grievous taking on 4 Jedi simultaneously having mused upon whether or not he should have blitzed them before deciding against it and letting them draw their blades so that they could have an honorable death.
"The astonishment registered by Palpatine and his quartet of Jedi Knights assured Grievous that he could not have made a more dramatic entry. A large desk dominated the circular room, and banks of communications consoles formed the circumference. Centered in the curved wall opposite the entrance was a second door. Posing for effect in the polygonal opening, Grievous granted his opponents a moment to activate their lightsabers, force pikes, and other weapons. Also for effect, he deflected the initial flurry of blaster bolts with his clawed hands, before drawing two of his lightsabers." - Labrynth of Evil.
He is even regretful that he could not prolong the fight as he found the experience of dueling 4 Jedi simultaneously to be fun.
"The astonishment registered by Palpatine and his quartet of Jedi Knights assured Grievous that he could not have made a more dramatic entry. A large desk dominated the circular room, and banks of communications consoles formed the circumference. Centered in the curved wall opposite the entrance was a second door. Posing for effect in the polygonal opening, Grievous granted his opponents a moment to activate their lightsabers, force pikes, and other weapons. Also for effect, he deflected the initial flurry of blaster bolts with his clawed hands, before drawing two of his lightsabers. His brazenness summoned the Jedi to him in a flash, but he knew in the first moments of contest that he had nothing to worry about. Compared to Mace Windu, the four were mere novices, whose lightsaber techniques were some of the earliest Grievous had mastered. Fencing with his four adversaries-for that’s all the fight amounted to-Grievous saw six of the soldiers and three of the Red Guards jolted to spasming deaths by the MagnaGuards’ double-tipped sceptres. Grievous enjoyed going against so many Jedi simultaneously. If time wasn’t of the essence, he might have protracted the fight. Feinting with the blade in his right hand, he removed the head of one Jedi with the blade in his left. Distracted when his right foot inadvertently booted the rolling head of his comrade, the Ithorian dropped his guard momentarily, and received as penalty a thrust to the heart that dropped him to his knees before he pitched forward. Stepping back to absorb what had happened, the two remaining Jedi came at Grievous in concert, twirling and leaping about as if putting on some sort of crowd-pleasing martial arts demonstration. For practice, Grievous called two more blades from his belt, grasping them in his feet even as the anti-grav repulsors built into his legs were lifting him from the floor, making him every bit as agile as the Force did the Jedi. With his four blades to the Jedi’s two, the duel had come full circle. Whirling, he severed the blade hand of the Talz, then his opposing foot, then took his life, as well. Mists of blood formed in the air, swirled about by the ventilators. The fourth he intimidated into retreat by wheeling all four blades, transforming himself into a veritable chopping machine. Fear blossomed in the Twi’lek Jedi’s dark eyes as she backed away. He had her on the run, poor thing. But he awarded her some measure of dignity by allowing her to land glancing blows on his forearms and shoulders. The burns did little more than add a new odor to the room. Emboldened, she pressed her attack, but was fast exhausting herself from the effort of trying to amputate one of his limbs-to hurt him in some fashion. Best to put the Jedi out of her misery, Grievous thought. Which he did with a single blade to the heart-for it would have been cruel to do otherwise." - Labyrinth of Evil
Tbh I never really got the whole Vader being less mobile/agile, given that Grevious' cybernetics compared to Vader's were inferior. (As I recall there was a quote right?)
I mean I guess it's just going off the old OT where they couldn't do much...but still. Although since were apparently gonna see him in Rogue One and they did state they were gonna make him look better movement wise right? Guess the whole movement/speed thing will be changed.
Then again, never really understood why they didn't expand on Vader's strength either, they did his great durability justice, but his strength feats while good, I think should have been much better.
Originally posted by Syndicate
The fact that you continue to fail at realizing that this is sabers only.The fact that Vader being 80% of Sidious's power means nothing without the feats to back it up.
The fact that this only applies in a force sense and this is a lightsabers only fight.
The fact that while this is true we can see his guard pierced by opponents who are far slower, less skilled and less aggressive then Grievous.
Except you have no proof that Vader's saber skills are superior to Fisto's and ignored the fact that Fisto had a form advantage over Grievous and Grievous had been injured prior to their fight.
The fact that you ignored my prior posts stating that Obi Wan's defenses were being overloaded by Grievous.
Because I'm a nice guy I'll post it again.
"Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks - sixteen per second, eighteen - until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense." - Revenge of the Sith
Lol wut. You're reasoning for Vader being superior is because he's an apprentice of Palpatine and because he's "done stuff?"
Ngl this is pretty sad.
It doesn't matter if this is sabers only. Dude's 80% of Sidious. Dude's one of the most powerful and skilled Sith Lords ever.
You're saying Vader is featless? You're saying Fisto is more skilled than Darth Vader?
Yeah, Maul's guard was also pierced by a far less skilled Padawan Kenobi. Mace also pierces Sidious's guard. Do you honestly believe those far slower, less skilled and less aggressive than Grievous would take Vader at least 6/10?
And I did not ignore those posts, I addressed them.
No, I'm not saying that. But I think you're underestimating what being the apprentice to the most powerful Sith Lord to live means, considering, again, that he's 80% of that power and regarded by his master as 'the greatest Jedi killer'.
If you agree his skills weren't that affected after his injury, how can you say he'd be beaten by Grievous considering Anakin was a PT top 5 duelist and bested Grievous's teacher in saber combat?
Yes and? How does this help in determining Vader's capabilities. Directly scaling off Sidious's own feats wouldn't even put him on the level he's currently at in regards to physicals aside from agility which we know he's not 80% as effective in Palpatine in due to the limitations of his suit. Also I don't see how power transfers to skill. Honestly that statement means pretty much nothing considering the Sidious he was being compared to at the time and his own relative feats.
Lol. Nice trying to take my words out of context. I'm saying if his feats don't back up the statement the statement itself means nothing.
I'm saying while Fisto may not be more skilled then Vader I find there's very little evidence to suggest Vader is more skilled then Fisto.
When? He put Maul on the defensive after his master's death but he didn't pierce his guard as far as I know.
Mace was amped in that instance as I would have expected you to known.
You mean the far faster, shown to be more skilled and more aggressive Grievous? Yes.
No you didn't. You ignored them just like you'll do to this post in your next response.
I'm not underestimating anything. I'm just not going to let statements that would not even apply here anyways considering Vader cannot use the force comparatively effect my view on how the fight would play out.
He bested Dooku not because he was more skilled but because he was comparatively skilled, had a form advantage, had a physical advantage and was goaded by Palpatine to embrace his rage.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Yes and? How does this help in determining Vader's capabilities. Directly scaling off Sidious's own feats wouldn't even put him on the level he's currently at in regards to physicals aside from agility which we know he's not 80% as effective in Palpatine in due to the limitations of his suit. Also I don't see how power transfers to skill. Honestly that statement means pretty much nothing considering the Sidious he was being compared to at the time and his own relative feats.Lol. Nice trying to take my words out of context. I'm saying if his feats don't back up the statement the statement itself means nothing.
I'm saying while Fisto may not be more skilled then Vader I find there's very little evidence to suggest Vader is more skilled then Fisto.
When? He put Maul on the defensive after his master's death but he didn't pierce his guard as far as I know.
Mace was amped in that instance as I would have expected you to known.
You mean the far faster, shown to be more skilled and more aggressive Grievous? Yes.
No you didn't. You ignored them just like you'll do to this post in your next response.
I'm not underestimating anything. I'm just not going to let statements that would not even apply here anyways considering Vader cannot use the force comparatively effect my view on how the fight would play out.
He bested Dooku not because he was more skilled but because he was comparatively skilled, had a form advantage, had a physical advantage and was goaded by Palpatine to embrace his rage.
If anything, he's 80% of Sidious with the suit, not without it but still, it is suggested that Vader's inability to reach his full-potential is more of a psychological issue rather than a physical one. I believe the quote states Vader is, as he was when that quote was said, 80% of Sidious, not that he would be had he reached a higher potential.
I wasn't trying to put your words out of context. I apologize if it seemed so.
I think the evidence Sidious provided up there is quite good to determine that.
I'd consider pushing him back, making him fall to the ground and slicing his double-bladed saber in two a piercing of his guard.
I know he's amped, but that's not my point. My point is, do you think those guys you mentioned are capable of defeating Vader at least 6/10 times?
I did not ignore them:
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Whatever, defenses being overwhelmed for like 5 seconds until he regained his composure and got the upper hand. That's not really straining yourself to a high point.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
So... He overloaded Kenobi's defense for mere seconds before getting his hand cut off... In the novelization, which is lower canon than the movie. In the movie, we can see it doesn't take Kenobi that much effort to cut off Grievous's attack, tbh.
He bested Dooku because by that point, he was simply the better duelist.
