Kurse vs. General Zod

Started by FrothByte17 pages

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mentioned that punch of Zod which Superman dodged at 1:37 left lines. Does that happen when a normal human punches? No. Which is why I'm saying the punches were "portrayed" to be at superhuman speed. Whether they actually speed up their punches in the cutting room is a different thing altogether.

For instance, in the Matrix you get slow movements and slow hits. Yet everything around them is moving in slow motion. So what does that mean? It means they won't show them moving at superhuman speeds, but they are portraying it to be at superhuman speeds.

Of course Zod and Superman don't punch like normal humans, they're not. My point is, they were portrayed at regular speed and they weren't sped up or slowed down. You can see this by watching the background: Cars are still falling at regular speed, flames are still moving at regular speed, etc.

Which just goes to show that they weren't throwing punches at superspeed.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Why are you guys arguing about Zods speed? Any Kyrptonian is faster than Kurse. This is a fact.

They are also all significantly stronger and likely more durable. Kurse wasn't tackling over skyscrapers or shown to be strong enough to hold up oil rigs, and he hasn't shown the durability to stand up to someone who could.

This is a flat out stomp for Zod. He ragdolls the shit out of Kurse until he's dust.

In no way shape or form is Zod more durable. That is simply laughable. One got his neck broken with seemingly utter ease. The other didn't seem to be the least bit bothered by any attack thrown his way, and it took a plot device to end him. Kurse is clearly more durable than Zod.

Zod doesn't use his speed that way though. He's not Faora. He basically fights like a brute. Kurse is vastly more skilled than Zod, and that seemed very apparent. Stronger... who's to say? Kurse was never required to life a thing. He was simply shown treating Thor like a weak feeb and being unfazed by any of his attacks. Maybe Zod's stronger, but it's nothing significant in my opinion.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Of course Zod and Superman don't punch like normal humans, they're not. My point is, they were portrayed at regular speed and they weren't sped up or slowed down. You can see this by watching the background: Cars are still falling at regular speed, flames are still moving at regular speed, etc.

Which just goes to show that they weren't throwing punches at superspeed.

👆

Kurse was also able to slap away Mjolnir with his back turned. Quite a reflex feat. Not saying he's necessarily as fast as Zod but he's no slouch either.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Was she?

Because at over here at 0:50:

?v=khKaUE9KV3A

Supes is fighting off both Nam-Ek and Faora simultaneously in H2H, and he blocks Faora's kick and puts her to the floor.

So did Supes suddenly become faster, Faora suddenly become slower? Unlikely. More likely Superman was just holding back in the 1 v 1, and getting caught off guard by Faora's ferocity.

I would hardly use a scene where he's temporarily KO'd when fighting Faora and Nam as him "fighting them off" . They KO'd him, they were unfazed by any of his attacks sans his heat vision. Ferocity? She wasn't fighting the least bit ferocious. Fighting like that would mean going for the kill and not giving your foe a moment to breath. Here, at every turn, she's doing monologue while trouncing him. Hardly what I would call ferocious. She was simply faster and more skilled. Period, end of story.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In no way shape or form is Zod more durable. That is simply laughable. One got his neck broken with seemingly utter ease. The other didn't seem to be the least bit bothered by any attack thrown his way, and it took a plot device to end him. Kurse is clearly more durable than Zod.

Zod doesn't use his speed that way though. He's not Faora. He basically fights like a brute. Kurse is vastly more skilled than Zod, and that seemed very apparent. Stronger... who's to say? Kurse was never required to life a thing. He was simply shown treating Thor like a weak feeb and being unfazed by any of his attacks. Maybe Zod's stronger, but it's nothing significant in my opinion.

Your argument that Kurse is more durable than Zod hinges on the fact that Thor couldn't hurt him whereas, Superman was able to snap Zods neck. This doesn't take into account the fact that Thor is not as strong as Superman and hasn't shown the strength feats to suggest otherwise. Once Kurse survives an onslaught from someone whos Kryptonian level without injury, you can claim Kurse is more durable. Until then, he's not.

And yes, I agree that Faora is the fastest Kryptonian shown. Despite that, all of them were shown to be much quicker and more mobile while fighting than Kurse or Thor by a large margin.

As for who's stronger, yes Kurse wasn't shown to lift things, so we don't know his limits. That also means he has no strength feats. That means strength goes comfortably to Zod.

Going off of feats, Zod is more durable, quicker, and stronger. Zods wins.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Your argument that Kurse is more durable than Zod hinges on the fact that Thor couldn't hurt him whereas, Superman was able to snap Zods neck. This doesn't take into account the fact that Thor is not as strong as Superman and hasn't shown the strength feats to suggest otherwise. Once Kurse survives an onslaught from someone whos Kryptonian level without injury, you can claim Kurse is more durable. Until then, he's not.

And yes, I agree that Faora is the fastest Kryptonian shown. Despite that, all of them were shown to be much quicker and more mobile while fighting than Kurse or Thor by a large margin.

As for who's stronger, yes Kurse wasn't shown to lift things, so we don't know his limits. That also means he has no strength feats. That means strength goes comfortably to Zod.

Going off of feats, Zod is more durable, quicker, and stronger. Zods wins.

Absence of proof isn't proof friend, and I know you already know that. He does have strength feats though and they are clearly defined. Hulk is every bit as strong as superman, in fact, likely stronger. Look no further than the back and forth fight they had in the Avengers. Thor was PHYSICALLY effecting Hulk time and time again. Whether that be with punches or his hammer. In one instance Thor's hammer through literally sent Hulk flying. In STARK contrast, Kurse treated Thor's hammer as if it was a toothpick and of no consequence. He literally swatted it away as if it was a flea. Shoot we even seen Thor lock up with Hulk and briefly stalemate him. Now, I'm not claiming Thor is as stronger but he's clearly in the ballpark of strength if he could compete with Hulk at almost every turn. Again, we're talking about somebody as strong, or stronger than Clark. Guess what, Kurse treated that same Thor, literally, and I mean literally like a weakling. That is the very definition of extrapolating strength. You're forgetting all of Thor's feats, and Kurse casually owning him at every turn speaks volumes about Kurse's prowess. You're underselling him here.

To go further, the crux of the argument doesn't hinge on Zod having his neck snapped. It hinges on Kurse no selling virtually ever one of Thor's attacks. Then when you factor in Thor's track record and feats, and still see Kurse treating him like he did and no selling attacks... it becomes blatantly apparent he's more durable than Zod. In fact, I would say it's a clear advantage for Kurse based on feats. Zod having his neck snapped in the coup de grace that reinforces the point, not the crux of the argument.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Your argument that Kurse is more durable than Zod hinges on the fact that Thor couldn't hurt him whereas, Superman was able to snap Zods neck. This doesn't take into account the fact that Thor is not as strong as Superman and hasn't shown the strength feats to suggest otherwise. Once Kurse survives an onslaught from someone whos Kryptonian level without injury, you can claim Kurse is more durable. Until then, he's not.

And yes, I agree that Faora is the fastest Kryptonian shown. Despite that, all of them were shown to be much quicker and more mobile while fighting than Kurse or Thor by a large margin.

As for who's stronger, yes Kurse wasn't shown to lift things, so we don't know his limits. That also means he has no strength feats. That means strength goes comfortably to Zod.

Going off of feats, Zod is more durable, quicker, and stronger. Zods wins.

Not much can be shown regarding how tough Kurse is as he was never really hurt in the movie, but as strength goes, the Hulk couldn't stop Mjolnir's forward momentum with his own strength. Kurse swatted Mjolnir away like nothing.

They could fly pretty fast, yes. But flight is disabled in this scenario. And Kurse was able to react to a flying Thor AND a flying Mjolnir with his back turned and Zod never showed that any of his bullrushes exceeded Thor's or Mjolnir's flight speed IIRC. Ergo, he would be able to react to said bullrushes by swatting Zod away.

Zod might have shown more showings of durability against human skyscrapers and such as his fight with Kal was very give and take. Best I can remember for Kurse is when he blew up the Asgardian reactor and facetanked the whole explosion like nothing. Kurse has better damage soak tho and feels no pain (as he was skewered by a blade and didn't seem all that bothered by it).

Zod was portrayed as a horrible fighter, tho. Barely and tactics in how he fought. He essentially fought like a wild animal. Kurse fought with smarts. Separating his opponent from his primary weapon (and keeping said weapon away), maintained his advantage by keeping his opponent off balance and ground and pounded him for the win had Loki not interfered.

The fact that he was skewered by Loki's level of strength shows his durability is questionable, even if he didn't feel the pain and it didn't kill him

So while he may not die or even feel the pain from having an arm ripped off, but it could possibly be ripped off by someone of Zod's strength

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Absence of proof isn't proof friend, and I know you already know that. He does have strength feats though and they are clearly defined. Hulk is every bit as strong as superman, in fact, likely stronger. Look no further than the back and forth fight they had in the Avengers. Thor was PHYSICALLY effecting Hulk time and time again. Whether that be with punches or his hammer. In one instance Thor's hammer through literally sent Hulk flying. In STARK contrast, Kurse treated Thor's hammer as if it was a toothpick and of no consequence. He literally swatted it away as if it was a flea. Shoot we even seen Thor lock up with Hulk and briefly stalemate him. Now, I'm not claiming Thor is as stronger but he's clearly in the ballpark of strength if he could compete with Hulk at almost every turn. Again, we're talking about somebody as strong, or stronger than Clark. Guess what, Kurse treated that same Thor, literally, and I mean literally like a weakling. That is the very definition of extrapolating strength. You're forgetting all of Thor's feats, and Kurse casually owning him at every turn speaks volumes about Kurse's prowess. You're underselling him here.

To go further, the crux of the argument doesn't hinge on Zod having his neck snapped. It hinges on Kurse no selling virtually ever one of Thor's attacks. Then when you factor in Thor's track record and feats, and still see Kurse treating him like he did and no selling attacks... it becomes blatantly apparent he's more durable than Zod. In fact, I would say it's a clear advantage for Kurse based on feats. Zod having his neck snapped in the coup de grace that reinforces the point, not the crux of the argument.

The absence of proof means the absence of feats. That puts the burden of proof on you, but that's impossible since you've already noted that those feats are absent. I'm definitely not trying to undersell Kurse. He's a beast, and likely one of the tops in the MCU so far. He just hasn't shown the feats to be considered above a Kyptonian.

Hulk wasn't holding up oil rigs or tackling over skyscrapers. His hits with the HB did make shockwaves, but nowhere near the level of shockwaves Supes and Zod colliding made. Thor also was not shown to be in the same ballpark strength wise. He's strong, but not enough to give Hulk a run in that stat. He won that fight due to significantly greater skill and superior fighting speed.

You're also trying to use A > B > C logic, which isn't valid here. Hulks strength feats don't translate to Thor, and they definitely don't translate to Kurse. That, combined with Kurses lack of feats, is kind of a death sentence when put into a fight with someone who does have feats.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Not much can be shown regarding how tough Kurse is as he was never really hurt in the movie, but as strength goes, the Hulk couldn't stop Mjolnir's forward momentum with his own strength. Kurse swatted Mjolnir away like nothing.

They could fly pretty fast, yes. But flight is disabled in this scenario. And Kurse was able to react to a flying Thor AND a flying Mjolnir with his back turned and Zod never showed that any of his bullrushes exceeded Thor's or Mjolnir's flight speed IIRC. Ergo, he would be able to react to said bullrushes by swatting Zod away.

Zod might have shown more showings of durability against human skyscrapers and such as his fight with Kal was very give and take. Best I can remember for Kurse is when he blew up the Asgardian reactor and facetanked the whole explosion like nothing. Kurse has better damage soak tho and feels no pain (as he was skewered by a blade and didn't seem all that bothered by it).

Zod was portrayed as a horrible fighter, tho. Barely and tactics in how he fought. He essentially fought like a wild animal. Kurse fought with smarts. Separating his opponent from his primary weapon (and keeping said weapon away), maintained his advantage by keeping his opponent off balance and ground and pounded him for the win had Loki not interfered.

Yeah, its true enough that Kurse has insane damage soak. He's kind of like Ajax in that regard. I can agree he doesn't feel pain, or at least doesn't care about.

Also, Kurse didn't stop the Hammer like Hulk tried to. He redirected it slightly. I wouldn't really count that as a strength feat. If he caught it and waved it around, I'd be impressed.

Also, I missed Zods flight being disabled here. Thats my bad. I should have paid more attention to OP. Despite that, I seem to remember him bounding pretty fast up the side of a building. He didn't have super speed for a good portion of that fight, but still kept up with someone who does, and could fly.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ok:

?v=HnAw3E_mLh8

Zod seems to run at superspeed to bullrush Kal @ 1:30

Then their punches and blocks seem to be portrayed at superspeed in their H2H from 1:34-1:36 looking like they're leaving sonic boom discharges.

Then @ 1:37 Superman dodges Zod's punch which leaves lines depicting super speed.

Then again Zod looks like he runs superfast towards Supes at 1:50 and gives him 2 punches which both seem to be depicted as super speed punches.

I'll tell you straight, these depictions of combat at super speeds is a hell of a lot better than anything we ever get in SW, and that was all before Zod learned to fly mind you.

Then after the flying starts there's the bullrushing punches which at 3:04. Including Zod spinning Superman around at superspeed @ 3:35. This is all during combat. Never seen Iron Man even move at those speeds, let alone fight and punch e.t.c.

There's also the Faora fight which I'll post if further proof is needed of Superman fighting/reacting at super speed.

Sorry to tell you DT, but ambigious shockwave fx does NOT trump quantifiable actions/second calcs. That is essentially the entire basis of your argument above. Their actions were clearly within (or at best slightly above) human level speed if you go by actions/punchers per second.

Then you go around and use ABC logic (ignoring context and what is plainly and visually shown on screen) to justify because he fought and reacted to one of Faora's attack then he must have been moving at superspeed even though the scene is obviously showing that neither Faora or him did so.

Originally posted by Robtard
The fact that he was skewered by Loki's level of strength shows his durability is questionable, even if he didn't feel the pain and it didn't kill him

So while he may not die or even feel the pain from having an arm ripped off, but it could possibly be ripped off by someone of Zod's strength

He was skewered by an Alien weapon designed to pierce Asgardian+ durability. Nothing is questionable here at all.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Yeah, its true enough that Kurse has insane damage soak. He's kind of like Ajax in that regard. I can agree he doesn't feel pain, or at least doesn't care about.

Also, Kurse didn't stop the Hammer like Hulk tried to. He redirected it slightly. I wouldn't really count that as a strength feat. If he caught it and waved it around, I'd be impressed.

Also, I missed Zods flight being disabled here. Thats my bad. I should have paid more attention to OP. Despite that, I seem to remember him bounding pretty fast up the side of a building. He didn't have super speed for a good portion fo that fight, but still kept up with someone who does, and could fly.

I disagree about redirecting slightly. Mjolnir turned a full 90 degrees. He literally swatted it away with his arm.

He cleared 20-25 feet in one second (not all that fast) in his first bullrush, as for the building climb, I did the math for that (somewhere in this thread) and the climb clocked in at around 15 mph.

Originally posted by Robtard
The fact that he was skewered by Loki's level of strength shows his durability is questionable, even if he didn't feel the pain and it didn't kill him

So while he may not die or even feel the pain from having an arm ripped off, but it could possibly be ripped off by someone of Zod's strength

He was skewered by Loki (who's quite strong himself) using an elven blade. Considering that Kurse is dark elf himself, it makes sense that their weapons can penetrate them.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Sorry to tell you DT, but ambigious shockwave fx does NOT trump quantifiable actions/second calcs. That is essentially the entire basis of your argument above. Their actions were clearly within (or at best slightly above) human level speed if you go by actions/punchers per second.

So tell me since you want to look at them in normal time, do normally timed punches leave those kind of lines behind the punch like Zod's does at 1:37? What do you think that was if not a depiction of super speed?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Then you go around and use ABC logic (ignoring context and what is plainly and visually shown on screen) to justify because he fought and reacted to one of Faora's attack then he must have been moving at superspeed even though the scene is obviously showing that neither Faora or him did so.

So are you saying Faora suddenly lost her speed when Kal was getting those hits in? Or did she suddenly decide to stop using this amazing speed that apparently only she has?

Because he lands hits on her more than once in that 2 on 1 scuffle.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
He was skewered by an Alien weapon designed to pierce Asgardian+ durability. Nothing is questionable here at all.

Could then be said that Kurse swatting away Mjolnir was due to him being the anti-Asgard living-weapon and not just a matter of physical strength

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I would hardly use a scene where he's temporarily KO'd when fighting Faora and Nam as him "fighting them off" . They KO'd him, they were unfazed by any of his attacks sans his heat vision.

Whether they were fazed by his hits or not is completely irrelevant to the point which is speed.

He was landing more hits on Faora in that fight than vice versa, even though he was the one who was outnumbered.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So tell me since you want to look at them in normal time, do normally times punches leave those kind of lines behind the punch? What do you think that was if not a depiction of super speed?

So are you saying Faora suddenly lost her speed when Kal was getting those hits in?

Because he lands hits on her more than once in that 2 on 1 scuffle.

Depictions of power of said punches, dramatic effect to give the scene more "motion".

No, she didn't lose her speed. She just didn't use it. Overconfidence perhaps? After all, that's what killed her in the end.

Originally posted by Robtard
Could then be said that Kurse swatting away Mjolnir was due to him being the anti-Asgard living-weapon and not just a matter of physical strength

You're just trolling right, or is this a serious argument?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So tell me since you want to look at them in normal time, do normally times punches leave those kind of lines behind the punch like Zod's does at 1:37? What do you think that was if not a depiction of super speed?

So are you telling us that because of fancy shockwaves you want us to believe they punched in super speed even though the punches were in fact shown to be delivered at normal speed?