Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by Arachnid1

1. Thanks for actually trying to debate, unlike most people in this thread.

2. Even if I compromise and say he cant move that fast during fighting (although I don't believe that, for the sake of argument lets go with it), even if his body casually functions at a fraction of that speed, it still makes him faster at hand to hand than WS by a large margin. His reaction also wouldn't really change. If he can perceive a bullet, he can perceive WS punches.

His armor is bullet proof. The bullet didn't go through the glove of his hand, and there was no blood. He also willingly took a sustained barrage of punches from a man who was breaking bone with his punches and sending people soaring with the hits without drawing blood, so he could take a beating. Those combined makes me think he could take a few hits and keep coming, and I don't think many if any hits would connect. Also dodging is a whole lot easier than catching, so he could just move out of the way.

Also, only WS's arm seems all that impressive. It's stupid strong, but the rest of his body doesn't seem amazing. Cap broke his other arm easily enough in their final battle (granted he is Cap), so I definitely think Ozy could damage him with a good amount of hits, and Ozy would be landing waaay more hits than WS. Just my 2 cents on how I see a fight between them going. Strength is really the only stat WS has Ozy in, and thats not enough.

While I don't think that WS can replicate Ozy's bullet catching feat, I don't see Ozy running as fast as cars like WS did.

Ozy's bullet catching feat is a great show of reflex speed, and to be quite honest I don't think WS has reflexes that fast, but it was a single movement. We have no idea if Ozy can maintain that kind of speed for a sustained duration because he's never shown so. WS on the other hand isn't some slowpoke either. He was fast enough to back flip out of the way of automatic fire, catch Cap's shield with his back turned, run as fast as cars on a freeway....

So even if we consider that Ozy is faster than WS (and even that is debatable) it is definitely not by a wide margin.

However, there is a wide margin in terms of strength. WS has fought legitimate superhumans and has proven both strength and skill against high caliber opponents. Ozy beating up Rosch and NO is about as impressive as WS beating up BW and Sharon Carter.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again, that isn't 30 feet... I've seen it all done before. I've seen these pictures before. You have zero accurate clue where the guy was standing at all. They aren't in the exact same places as the overhead and when he actually get kicked. There is no way to accurately tell where he is. You want to move him further away to make the kick longer.... doesn't make it so.

Further, Ozy's kick was vastly more powerful as the numbers show. Kicking somebody in the head and sending them flying even 10 feet is considerably more impressive then sending somebody flying by kicking them in the chest. A simply illustration is all that is needed. Kick somebody sending up in the chest... they'll go flying backwards a good distance. The surface area is greater and you can exert more force on a larger surface area. Ozy's kick in stark contrast was only kicking the guy in the head... and he was on the ground. Think about it.

We've seen in the MMA fights or real life.... Kick somebody square In the chest... they go flying backwards. Granted not flying in the air... which mean the WS was powerful, but again the engine I believe aided in him being carried further. The engire makes the feat ambiguous at best. Anyways, I've seen plenty of kicks to downed foes.. and not once... ever... are they sent flying. So the force Ozy needed to generate to send somebody flying like that is greater than what WS generated. It's really that simple

Lol, y'all are arguing about who kicked some guy farther, if you really want to try and say Ozy is in Bucky's league with striking power you're going to have to aim a little higher. Bucky punched the door of that mobile prison clean off its hinges, and we're talking 2-3 inches of steel and plexy glass.

Originally posted by Inhuman

Look at @ 2:15 in this vid. WS catches and holds Black Panther in mid air with his NON robot arms and lifts him up no problem while riding a motorcycle.
Look @ 1:40 WS is running faster than cars with his NON robot legs.
8:28 kicks a guy over 30 feet with his NON robot legs. (This was already proven with different angle pics of that scene earlier in this thread)
And a bunch of other scenes that show he is enahnced besides his robot arm.
And he fights faster than Ozy.

YouTube video

That wasn't 30 feet lol.
Do you also notice from your video how slow Ozy's fighting speed is?
Its slower than how fast WS fights.
And WS fights super powered people. Not just regular peak humans that their greatest feat is beating up prisoner fodder.

duster [/B]

Those cars are moving very slowly. WS is running 35mph tops. Look when he drops down. 4 seconds later he only travels 40ft. Look when he drops down. He lands right in front of the white car. The car is moving so slowly that it has time to avoid WS. Look when he drops down, one car is 5-10feet in front of the other. This is either rush hour traffic or it's a slow street. Either way, WS isn't running as fast as you think.

Ozy is insanely faster than WS. It's a contradiction to be able to see, react, and have the speed to catch a bullet yet fight super slow. Or to defend simultaneously the attacks of 2 high level martial artists. WS punches will look like they are frozen in time to Ozy. If Ozy fought at 1/3the speed of catching the bullet then he would still be many times faster.

You lose all credibility when you say that wasn't 30ft. It was over 30 feet. 30 feet is a 5 man distance.

Ozy casually leaped over 30feet through the air and crushed a solid steel gun with his foot. He threw a 220lb man 20feet through reinforced skyscraper windows. That's an insane feat. The only feat WS has that can come close to this level of strength is him kicking the man 30ft through the air. Considering it was a kick to the chest then it's not as impressive as a head kick.

It's really dumb for someone to be able to move their hands the speed of a bullet yet can't even move their hands at least 1/3 of this speed in a fight.

How would WS even land a single blow? His attacks would appear frozen in time.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Personally, I like how h1a8 posts a clip that actually disproves his stance that Ozy is a fast fighter. in fact the clip shows that Ozy is rather slow in the hth department.

Props to Inhuman for posting proof that WS is the faster fighter.

Ozy was blocking 2 attackers simultaneously very easily. How is that slow? His attacks were very swift and instant.

Look at the speed in which Bucky throws a punch or tried to stab Cap. It's human speed. He's not moving faster than any normal human that knows how to fight.

Finally, all of that goes out of the window because Ozy can move his hands as fast as a bullet and can see and react to the speed of a bullet. He will see WS punch traveling in super slow motion.

YouTube video

YouTube video

The clips clearly show that WS is the faster fighter.

Originally posted by FrothByte
How bout you do what Inhuman did and post a diagram of Ozy throwing/hitting people so we can see actual evidence of how far they flew?

You haven't seen this clips 20x already? Please, we've all seen them, we all know generally how far they were. Stop trying to be purposely obtuse. Them let me ask you this Froth, how far do you think Ozy tossed RO in their fight scene. What makes the feat so impressive was the virtually zero leverage he had for that throw. He didn't spin around to generate force, he did get a running start... He blocked his kicked and casually tossed him how far? You tell me Froth, how far does that look like to you?

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
😆

Do whatever you want crab cakes, there's no point in even reading your posts at this point.

Concession accepted, no go run along kiddo

Originally posted by FrothByte
While I don't think that WS can replicate Ozy's bullet catching feat, I don't see Ozy running as fast as cars like WS did.

Ozy's bullet catching feat is a great show of reflex speed, and to be quite honest I don't think WS has reflexes that fast, but it was a single movement. We have no idea if Ozy can maintain that kind of speed for a sustained duration because he's never shown so. WS on the other hand isn't some slowpoke either. He was fast enough to back flip out of the way of automatic fire, catch Cap's shield with his back turned, run as fast as cars on a freeway....

So even if we consider that Ozy is faster than WS (and even that is debatable) it is definitely not by a wide margin.

However, there is a wide margin in terms of strength. WS has fought legitimate superhumans and has proven both strength and skill against high caliber opponents. Ozy beating up Rosch and NO is about as impressive as WS beating up BW and Sharon Carter.

You were doing so well, finally making coherent points, and thinking logically. It was nice to see for a change from you Froth. Lately you've gone all idiotic mode which we coin Quaning. You did so good, and then your last line you are back to Quaning.

How is the Gap is strength a wide margin between Ozy and WS... that's simply hilarious is more ways than one. It's completely false, and blatantly so. Thinking about how silly your comment is.

WS has NEVER EVER displayed speed and reactions like Ozy bullet catching feat. Nothing even remotely close. Yet, that gap isn't much according to you.

Yet, when Ozy has been shown throwing people further than WS ever has. He's been shown to kick people with greater force than WS ever has. He's been shown jumping higher and further than WS ever has (illustrating how powerful his legs and core of his body is). Yet... yet... There is a wide margin here, even though Ozy exceeds him in some areas.... yet above... when WS has never done anything even remotely close to what Ozy has... it's close LMAO Jesus

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Lol, y'all are arguing about who kicked some guy farther, if you really want to try and say Ozy is in Bucky's league with striking power you're going to have to aim a little higher. Bucky punched the door of that mobile prison clean off its hinges, and we're talking 2-3 inches of steel and plexy glass.

And yet when bloodlusted and out for the kill... normal humans not only survived the punches, but weren't even KO'd. Normal humans have been shown to block his punches and counter him. So if normal skilled humans can block and counter him.. Ozy is somehow going to be unable to? Please. Get back to me when you want to talk comparable feats. Until then, you're behind in the feats sections.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy was moving faster than WS was moving. Ozy was toying with them and still moving faster. If you want to judge the speed in which something appears on camera as true speed then WS was running slow as hell since those cars were moving at 15mph at times. Also there is no way the guy should have been kicked 30ft since Bucky struck him with a slow human speed kick.

Ozy was blocking 2 attackers simultaneously very easily. How is that slow? His attacks were very swift and instant.

Look at the speed in which Bucky throws a punch or tried to stab Cap. It's human speed. He's not moving faster than any normal human that knows how to fight.

Finally, all of that goes out of the window because Ozy can move his hands as fast as a bullet and can see and react to the speed of a bullet. He will see WS punch traveling in super slow motion.

Correct, and I've crushed this argument before.

We see his arm move to catch the bullet. Does that mean he was moving his arm slow? Of course not, that was a regular actor doing the movement... it wasn't sped up with CGI or anything. That doesn't mean it was slow. So I've asked the question... if we can see his arm move while catching the bullet... than what makes you believe his arm is moving slow when we see him punching? It doesn't, not even close. That is simply the choreography of the scene by the director.

We could also claim WS fights faster than Zod or Superman... after all his punches "appear" faster than the exchanges Zod and Superman had on the street. We can actually see their punches... they look human level speed... Does that make them human level speed? Of course not, they were many many times beyond human level speed, but the director wants us to see the action, not blurs. It's the same reason directors slow down scenes so we can see a bullet flying in the air... does that make is a vastly slow than normal gun and bullet? Of course not.

Lastly, the point that crushes their argument is, that Ozy was never hit, not once, yet they want him to move faster? What so of idiocy is this? The guy was never touched, even while playing around with his foes and doing a monologue. Yet, he needed to move faster? WTF lol

YouTube video

YouTube video

The clips clearly show that WS is the faster fighter.

Originally posted by Silent Master
YouTube video

YouTube video

The clips clearly show that WS is the faster fighter.

Second, you are using camera speed as true speed. That means the speed in which WE see them is the actual speed of the characters. If this is the case then how in the hell could Bucky kick someone 30 feet away with a 40mph looking human speed kick? Why did he only manage to travel 40ft after running full speed in 4sec? How did Ozy catch the bullet when his hand only appear to be moving at human speed?

I like how the clips clearly show that WS is the faster fighter, yet you still refuse to admit reality.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I like how the clips clearly show that WS is the faster fighter, yet you still refuse to admit reality.

Because your argument is severely flawed. You are saying what you "perceive" in a movie... when I've listed numerous things illustrating we can't go by what we "see" ** yet to address this and the instances

Further, that's like seeing Thanos casually backhand somebody, and go, see he doesn't have a martial arts training or TP... IF HE DID, he would've used it their. Absence of proof isn't proof. Ozy had ZERO reason to move any faster at all. He didn't have a single thing landed on him. Not one. Why was there a need to move any faster at all?

Next, what it appears to you is irrelevant. You could also see Ozy's arm move fast enough to catch a bullet. If the director was concerned about real time, it would've been nothing but a blur. We wouldn't even perceive his arm moving. Yet we did, which clearly demonstrates the director wasn't concerned with it appearing as it should.

Lastly, I'm still waiting for an answer.. does WS fight faster than Superman or Zod?

Thank you for admitting that WS was shown moving faster, the rest is just you making excuses about why we should ignore what is clearly shown.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Thank you for admitting that WS was shown moving faster, the rest is just you making excuses about why we should ignore what is clearly shown.

I didn't say anything about WS moving faster than Ozy.. I said going by what it "appears" to you isn't any kind of proof. That's terrible proof considering all of the above.

You've keep avoiding this question... Do you think WS punches faster than Superman or Zod?

IOW, you admit that WS was shown to move faster, but you think we should ignore what we can clearly see. because you don't like it.

Silent avoids the questions for the 5th time

Does WS punch faster than Superman or Zod?

I get it, you don't like the fact that the clips clearly show WS fights faster.