Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Let me get this straight...

In this one reply, you claim:

-That something that is "impossible" to NORMAL HUMANS is somehow relevant in a discussion about fictional superhumans.

-That Bucky somehow didn't win against his "competition", like Widow (who he almost killed had Cap not intervened) or Falcon (who he took out of the fight within seconds). That he did "no damage" to them, although Falcon lost a wing and got tossed out and Natasha got herself shot and he had her dead to rights. And Cap. Well, see below.

-That Ozy, who had a good 2-3 seconds to clear 12-15 feet has somehow performed a superspeed "feat", and it was all done off screen. And it was superspeed even tho we never really saw what happened. All because Comedian couldn't hear where he was. Like it's impossible to take someone by surprise because you can be quiet. Quiet = superspeed, apparently.

-That Bucky did no damage to Cap:

-That Watchmen characters that punched thugs and cops are peak/superhuman but claim that BW who also beat up thugs, mercs, large security personnel as well as better trained military special ops (several times without using her tech on them and even once with her arms tied up) with even more ease (as many times, she had no help doing so) is somehow not because TECHZZZ!

-That Natasha only really does well only because she uses her tech. Even tho:

YouTube video

>In IM2, she beat (0:39-0:50) 3 opponents without using her tech and disables one more at (1:15),
>takes out 3 opponents while tied to a chair with no tech as well (2:15),
>beats up an armed out-to-kill Hawkeye without the use of her tech (4:00-4:50)
>takes out 3 armed HYDRA agents in H2H with precision strikes, only temp stunning one other via a stun disc and taking him out later h2h (7:01-7:14). In a skirt and heels of all things.

But yeah, she only really does well with her techzzss!!!

-That Natasha isn't really strong even though she's fought larger opponents and took them down with one or 2 hits or fought superhuman opponents and took them down or at one point even grabbed onto a fast moving alien speeder with one hand, supporting her own weight against the sudden pull of the speeder's velocity.

-That Chitauri are not superhuman and are simply "military men" strong. Even tho, they jumped out of moving speeders 20+ feet in the air to land on the ground with little effort or get launched 50 feet to the side of a building and grabbed on with nothing more than their hands or when one Chitauri actually grabbed Cap (a bona fide superhuman), he couldn't really escape its grip without backflipping out of it. Because, let me guess, they have super strong leg strength and super strong grip strength but they's gots normal "military man" arm strengthz!!! That's all they have cuz: reasons! I'm sure, after all, these kinds of abilities are standard for "military men". /sarcasm

And of course, you gloss over the opponents they fought with unquestionable super strength "feats" (Ultron bots), because: morez reasonsz...!

-That fodder in Watchmen posed no threat to them and were "decimated" by them, only to admit in the next paragraph that Ror DID indeed get taken out by fodder and fodder WERE indeed a threat to him.

-That catching a bullet (that was heavily telegraphed), by moving one's arms fast automatically translates to someone being untouchable in a fight. Baseball pitchers must be closet MMA champs. And somehow blocking bullets don't count, because reasons. Because we don't block in fights. <--- altho, I will admit that this "feat" is awesome.

-That somehow Batroc did as well against Cap as he did because only the results matter and not how well you did against an opponent. After all, an opponent that lasts a full 5 championship rounds in MMA but loses in the end did just as well as that schmuck that lasted 15 seconds.

If there is any bias here, it has to come from the one who overblows his "feats" even though there is a lack of evidence. Downplays the other side's "feats" and abilities even tho there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary or even just downright ignores "feats" and showings.

Yeahhhhh, I wonder who's been doing that... hmm

Not sure where the whole BW argument is stemming from, but BW is obviously skilled with her tech or without. I think the point he was making was that she's more formidable thanks to her tech, which is undoubtedly true... doesn't mean she isn't skilled and dangerous without.

Further, her only other relevance is that again, she's not more formidable than RO and N.O. combined in h2h. So BW doing better against WS, comes into play in this regard. Why? Because I think it's rather obvious Ozy would've never been taken by surprise like that. Not only would he already know every single thing about her (it's ozy) he would've saw the sneak attack coming unlike WS. Who got disarmed and struggled initially.

That said, I'm still waiting for you to post the feats I asked for two pages ago when I commented on your post. You made the claim that WS has superior feats to Ozy in various areas. Every single person that has tried to make that claim has been proven wrong. Ozy has the superior feats by category. I listed them. Now, if you think not, post the feats that beat what I referenced on previous pages.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Another complete lie that continues to be perpetuated. I've trounced every single person that has tried to say Bucky has superior feats... if you feel you do POST them, and stop saying he has superior feats... he doesn't.

Speed - Ozy
Reaction - Ozy
Jumping - Ozy
Kicking strength - Ozy
Punching Strength - With his arm Bucky
Throwing - Ozy again
Durability - Hard to really gauge it since Ozy was never put down at all, while WS was. I'm okay with giving it to Bucky with question marks
Strength - With one arm Bucky
Intelligence (does factor into a fight) - Ozy

Now, IM tried to post feats that were superior and he ended up with Superior punching power and possible strength. The rest he had no answer for the feats I posted. Stop pontificating and post these superior feats.

Dude. You really shouldn't be claiming that you "trounced" ppl when you're the only person who seems to think so.

And I fail to see how an arbitrary set of criteria you manufactured somehow translates to Ozy winning the fight.

And saying that it's "hard to gauge" Ozy's durability because he has no durability "feats" is the same as me saying it's "hard to gauge" WS's jumping "feats" because he has no jumping "feats". Ozy actually has one durability "showing", his bullet catch using his bullet proof glove. Which knocked him down and stunned him for a good few seconds. Even tho he spun around to dissipate some of the bullet's energy.

So let's break it down:

It showed that the energy produced by a .38 special is sufficient to stun him even when catches it by hand (about 320j) and dissipates some of the energy.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

By contrast, an average karate punch has about 100-150j of energy in it. And Rocky Marciano has had one of his power punch measured in at 1028j.

Source: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/bullet-vs-punch.225988/

Not looking too good durability wise, now is he?

And the kick thing? Ozy kicked a man on the ground, 10 feet. WS kicked a man 3x the distance plus many times the height. You CLAIM, that kicking a man in the head and sending him 10 feet requires more energy than kicking a full grown man 20-30 feet (plus around 10 feet high). But that is all just a claim til you can prove it. I will admit the math is beyond me, so I cannot answer for sure, but I will also not accept your word for it either, if that would be ok with you. Do the math or simply stop claiming speculation as fact.

As for the rest? jumping? throwing (WS actually has the better "feat" here with his freeway toss)? All irrelevant, as I can come up with my own arbitrary list of criteria and claim victory as well. Like blocking, balance, dodging, etc. where WS does have better showings. But I won't do that as that would be silly.

Bottom line, logic dictates that we weigh the 2 based on how they fight, how they've been shown to fight and how their corresponding advantages allow them to win. WS is stronger than Ozy, that is fact. He is tougher than Ozy, fact as well. And he WILL hit Ozy, that is of no doubt. WS will tank Ozy's hits. Ozy will not tank WS's hits all that well.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Lmao Nibedicus... do you seriously read what you're posting?
Superspeed = quiet? serious? You seriously believe someone can move that distance around furniture silently without comedian noticing?

You're also missing the point that SS and NO were showing beyond human levels of strength against those thugs

You've disregarded and not even acknowledged the fact they're stronger than BW physically.

You've admitted ozy caught a bullet AFTER it was fired
Yet continue to argue his handspeed and armspeed...

I already told you i believe Bucky wins and you still get butthurt over the fact that Ozy is indeed faster than Bucky.

But now that ive looked at the facts i myself have change my vote to ozy.

Play Fighting 2 peak/superhuman opponents
Moving from doorway to behind comedian before comedian realized
Kicking ror and no around like toys giving him sufficient strength to hang with Bucky.
catching a bullet
Meanwhile Bucky feats are mostly accomplished with his proficiency with firearms.
He barely survived his encounters with cap yet you believe he'll walk over ozy because he simply fought him? Lol
Even batroc did that.
Anyways

Look i know this fight means alot to you so I'll just split the fight down the middle and give both opponents 5/10
Neither is a slouch when it's comes to h2h and both are cool AF

This stands to reason though bud, Ozy, as I've laid out, has the superior feats... Not only that, but he's much faster than Bucky.... better reactions... comparable strength (Bucky is likely stronger thanks to his arm)... but he h2h skill gap imo is pretty large between the two. Ozy of course being superior. So to me, when you're considerably faster than your foe... and more skilled... it would take a lot to overcome that. He's not significantly stronger than Ozy.. so that is not going to do it. Durability... he's probably more durable based on feats... but even then he was clearly able to be hurt. Thus anybody that can kick and throw people like Ozy can... means he can and will hurt him. I do like the diplomacy though. It's a solid fight imo. I just believe it's one Ozy wins.

Ozy does not fight faster than WS, clips have been posted several times proving that WS actually has the faster fighting speed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Another complete lie that continues to be perpetuated. I've trounced every single person that has tried to say Bucky has superior feats... if you feel you do POST them, and stop saying he has superior feats... he doesn't.

Speed - Ozy
Reaction - Ozy
Jumping - Ozy
Kicking strength - Ozy
Punching Strength - With his arm Bucky
Throwing - Ozy again
Durability - Hard to really gauge it since Ozy was never put down at all, while WS was. I'm okay with giving it to Bucky with question marks
Strength - With one arm Bucky
Intelligence (does factor into a fight) - Ozy

Now, IM tried to post feats that were superior and he ended up with Superior punching power and possible strength. The rest he had no answer for the feats I posted. Stop pontificating and post these superior feats.

Kt, quit ignoring the evidence as it has been posted multiple times while you haven't posted jack shit as to anything relevant to your case.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Lmao Nibedicus... do you seriously read what you're posting?
Superspeed = quiet? serious? You seriously believe someone can move that distance around furniture silently without comedian noticing?

You're also missing the point that SS and NO were showing beyond human levels of strength against those thugs

You've disregarded and not even acknowledged the fact they're stronger than BW physically.

You've admitted ozy caught a bullet AFTER it was fired
Yet continue to argue his handspeed and armspeed...

I already told you i believe Bucky wins and you still get butthurt over the fact that Ozy is indeed faster than Bucky.

But now that ive looked at the facts i myself have change my vote to ozy.

Play Fighting 2 peak/superhuman opponents
Moving from doorway to behind comedian before comedian realized
Kicking ror and no around like toys giving him sufficient strength to hang with Bucky.
catching a bullet
Meanwhile Bucky feats are mostly accomplished with his proficiency with firearms.
He barely survived his encounters with cap yet you believe he'll walk over ozy because he simply fought him? Lol
Even batroc did that.
Anyways

Look i know this fight means alot to you so I'll just split the fight down the middle and give both opponents 5/10
Neither is a slouch when it's comes to h2h and both are cool AF

You attempt to manufacture a "feat" that has no evidence except your own speculation. And as for your question, yes, it is possible for someone to maneuver outside your view especially when you've lost sight of said individual (w/c is easy to do after a roll, w/c happened in the dark). Speculate all you want, that's all you have.

Um, you may want to click back a page or 2 and reread where this all started. I countered your downplaying of WS's performance against Falcon and BW. This had nothing to do with me doubting Ozy's "feat", far from it, I even acknowledged the impressiveness of it. Try not to make things up, honesty is important for credibility, you know.

As if it was ever for WS 🙄, fyi, no one was really fooled on who you were really voting for via all your lowballing. It was pretty obvious.

The rest of your logic I already debunked. You're just reiterating already defeated, poorly thought out arguments (WS losing to Cap as some sort of low showing, disregarding how well he did, evensomuch as comparing Batroc to WS where they performed drastically different from each other. Owl and Ror being some sort of metric on how Ozy will perform against Bucky when they were in no way comparable and WS actually has fought better opponents and latching on to a kick "feat" that no one can even comparably quantify). All poorly thought out lowballing and overblowing. All debunked.

I don't really care what you think, kidd-o. But next time maybe debate with a little sense to your logic? You already failed to address like 80% of my previous post and here you are claiming like you've won something. Sad really.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You attempt to manufacture a "feat" that has no evidence except your own speculation. And as for your question, yes, it is possible for someone to maneuver outside your view especially when you've lost sight of said individual (w/c is easy to do after a roll, w/c happened in the dark). Speculate all you want, that's all you have.

Um, you may want to click back a page or 2 and reread where this all started. I countered your downplaying of WS's performance against Falcon and BW. This had nothing to do with me doubting Ozy's "feat", far from it, I even acknowledged the impressiveness of it. Try not to make things up, honesty is important for credibility, you know.

As if it was ever for WS 🙄, fyi, no one was really fooled on who you were really voting for via all your lowballing. It was pretty obvious.

The rest of your logic I already debunked. You're just reiterating already defeated, poorly thought out arguments (WS losing to Cap as some sort of low showing, disregarding how well he did, evensomuch as comparing Batroc to WS where they performed drastically different from each other. Owl and Ror being some sort of metric on how Ozy will perform against Bucky and latching on to a kick "feat" that no one can even comparably quantify). All poorly thought out lowballing. All debunked.

I don't really care what you think, kidd-o. But next time maybe debate with a little sense to your logic?

😂

Hit me up when Bucky catches a bullet bro...

5/10 both

Happy With that?

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
😂

Hit me up when Bucky catches a bullet bro...

5/10 both

Hit me up when Ozy actually fights well against a superhuman opponent.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
😂

Hit me up when Bucky catches a bullet bro...

5/10 both

Happy With that?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Dude. You really shouldn't be claiming that you "trounced" ppl when you're the only person who seems to think so.

And I fail to see how an arbitrary set of criteria you manufactured somehow translates to Ozy winning the fight.

And saying that it's "hard to gauge" Ozy's durability because he has no durability "feats" is the same as me saying it's "hard to gauge" WS's jumping "feats" because he has no jumping "feats". Ozy actually has one durability "showing", his bullet catch using his bullet proof glove. Which knocked him down and stunned him for a good few seconds. Even tho he spun around to dissipate some of the bullet's energy.

So let's break it down:

It showed that the energy produced by a .38 special is sufficient to stun him even when catches it by hand (about 320j) and dissipates some of the energy.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

By contrast, an average karate punch has about 100-150j of energy in it. And Rocky Marciano has had one of his power punch measured in at 1028j.

Source: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/bullet-vs-punch.225988/

Not looking too good durability wise, now is he?

And the kick thing? Ozy kicked a man on the ground, 10 feet. WS kicked a man 3x the distance plus many times the height. You CLAIM, that kicking a man in the head and sending him 10 feet requires more energy than kicking a full grown man 20-30 feet (plus around 10 feet high). But that is all just a claim til you can prove it. I will admit the math is beyond me, so I cannot answer for sure, but I will also not accept your word for it either, if that would be ok with you. Do the math or simply stop claiming speculation as fact.

As for the rest? jumping? throwing (WS actually has the better "feat" here with his freeway toss)? All irrelevant, as I can come up with my own arbitrary list of criteria and claim victory as well. Like blocking, balance, dodging, etc. where WS does have better showings. But I won't do that as that would be silly.

Bottom line, logic dictates that we weigh the 2 based on how they fight, how they've been shown to fight and how their corresponding advantages allow them to win. WS is stronger than Ozy, that is fact. He is tougher than Ozy, fact as well. And he WILL hit Ozy, that is of no doubt. WS will tank Ozy's hits. Ozy will not tank WS's hits all that well.

This is borderline comical now. I mean really funny.

YOU claim Bucky's kick was farther. PROVE IT. The angles of the camera give ZERO indication it was 20 feet let alone 30 LMAO. That is a complete and total fabrication. Shit, you can't even tell it was 20 feet. In the scene where he's actually struck, It in NO way looks like he traveled 20 feet. I don't think you realize how far that really is. In your house.. take 20 steps.. Look at that distance, and ask yourself.... does it appear the guy flew THAT far.. let alone 30 feet LMAO. No way. He looks to have traveled at most 15. However, I already said I can even allow 20.. because Ozy's kick is superior plain and simple. So I find it funny you want me to prove something about force of a kick.. yet you're unable to even prove how far WS kick was. It will be even funnier if you walk off 30 feet and tell me he kicked him that far... shit, you'll probably give yourself a chuckle.

I have no formula to prove kicking strength... what I do have though is common sense and logic. Do you not agree it's much harder to send someone flying who's on the ground and you kick them in the head... compared to two guys standing and one guy kicks the other in the chest. Surely, you'd agree it's much easier.. and by much easier I mean MUCH easier to send someone flying from a kick to the chest. That is simply where the majority of he mass is, thus you'll be able to more the object further then if you kick an extremity with very little mass. It's like saying I can kick someone's arm and send them flying as far as if kicked them in the chest LOL. It's laughable. Watch any UFC or Pride fights... training videos.. street fights... Notice how far back people fly from kicks to the chest... they go flying back and tumbling back. Happens all the time. Have you ever seen a kick to the head send someone flying or even tumbling back when they are already on the ground? Absolutely not. You seem to claim you subscribe to logic and reason. Well, let's see. By the way.. Ozy's kick looked further than 10 feet, in fact, it looked just as far.. though maybe not as high in the air. It's more than 10 feet that's for sure. Never mind, that he was kicked so hard.. he bounced off a pillar mid flight.. and still flew another 6-10 feet. To even think WS kick generated more force is kind of funny to me.

Throwing, again, this isn't close. Ozy threw somebody just as far, if not further. He seemed to even do damage to the pillar the guy was thrown so hard. We aren't talking about an unsuspecting old dude in a car who was caught by surprise We're talking about throwing peak human skill level guys. Even the comedian throw... look at how far that throw was through bullet proof glass. So no, WS doesn't have better throwing feats.

These were hardly arbitrary, they were things you'd see in most fights... Punches, kicks, throws, skill, strength, speed, reactions, durability... All the main variables for a fight. They were hardly arbitrary.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
😂

Hit me up when Bucky catches a bullet bro...

5/10 both

Happy With that?

Hit me up when Ozy manages to fight evenly with someone on Cap's level.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kt, quit ignoring the evidence as it has been posted multiple times while you haven't posted jack shit as to anything relevant to your case.

Let the big boys discuss things. Everybody thinks you're a joke and an awful debater. Why do you think you're constantly laughed at on here? So if that's the cause why are you interjecting in the discussion? Nobody cares about your thoughts or views. What's worse, I ALREADY posted the video. Every single thing I've referenced are in 3 clips.. The Ozy vs. RO and N.O. fight... Ozy catching the bullet.. and finally Ozy vs. the Comedian. I posted the videos and referenced each specific incident. So to see you say post the evidence is exactly why you're laughed at on here. It has been posted already.

Kt is demanding proof when he has not proven anything. How sad.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Hit me up when Ozy manages to fight evenly with someone on Cap's level.

Yes because Bucky won a fight out of the 3 he and cap had 😂

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let the big boys discuss things. Everybody thinks you're a joke and an awful debater. Why do you think you're constantly laughed at on here? So if that's the cause why are you interjecting in the discussion? Nobody cares about your thoughts or views. What's worse, I ALREADY posted the video. Every single thing I've referenced are in 3 clips.. The Ozy vs. RO and N.O. fight... Ozy catching the bullet.. and finally Ozy vs. the Comedian. I posted the videos and referenced each specific incident. So to see you say post the evidence is exactly why you're laughed at on here. It has been posted already.

Lmao You notice i don't even bother responding to him

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Yes because Bucky won a fight out of the 3 he and cap had 😂

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Lmao You notice i don't even bother responding to him

👆

If you take the time to respond to belligerent cheerleaders, it just clutters up the debates for those actually debating. Just tune that shit out like you would a child screaming in public.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You attempt to manufacture a "feat" that has no evidence except your own speculation. And as for your question, yes, it is possible for someone to maneuver outside your view especially when you've lost sight of said individual (w/c is easy to do after a roll, w/c happened in the dark). Speculate all you want, that's all you have.

Um, you may want to click back a page or 2 and reread where this all started. I countered your downplaying of WS's performance against Falcon and BW. This had nothing to do with me doubting Ozy's "feat", far from it, I even acknowledged the impressiveness of it. Try not to make things up, honesty is important for credibility, you know.

As if it was ever for WS 🙄, fyi, no one was really fooled on who you were really voting for via all your lowballing. It was pretty obvious.

The rest of your logic I already debunked. You're just reiterating already defeated, poorly thought out arguments (WS losing to Cap as some sort of low showing, disregarding how well he did, evensomuch as comparing Batroc to WS where they performed drastically different from each other. Owl and Ror being some sort of metric on how Ozy will perform against Bucky when they were in no way comparable and WS actually has fought better opponents and latching on to a kick "feat" that no one can even comparably quantify). All poorly thought out lowballing and overblowing. All debunked.

I don't really care what you think, kidd-o. But next time maybe debate with a little sense to your logic? You already failed to address like 80% of my previous post and here you are claiming like you've won something. Sad really.

I think you're lowballing the Ozy vs. Comedian speed feat. Comedian is no average Joe Nib and you know it. He's a well trained ex military vet. One of the best. He's also great in h2h if you know anything about in from movies and comics. He's clearly got heightened reactions and sight himself. So yes, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for somebody to be 15-20 feet away from a expert military dude... have him roll EVEN further away... and yet with no sound... no visual on the target... all of a sudden his RIGHT AT YOUR SIDE... and you didn't even know it or hear it. Yes, that would be impossible for any human to pull off. Even on a normal person it would be very hard to be totally silent and that fast in your movement to not be seen. Maybe though. Not a trained person with himself heightened sense.. No way, unless you had incredible speed. Then again we know he does... just reference the jump and bullet catch and blocking punches with his back turned. All corroborate said speed.

Originally posted by Robtard
👆

If you take the time to respond to belligerent cheerleaders, it just clutters up the debates for those actually debating. Just tune that shit out like you would a child screaming in public.

Sound analogy for the win