Originally posted by Nibedicus
Yes, impossible. For a real life human. Like it's impossible to kick someone 20-30 feet or to punch holes in highway concrete or to maintain your balance on your feet while standing on a speeding ans swerving vehicle on the freeway.We're not talking about real life humans here. We need to separate the term "impossible" for movies as we do for real life and simply quantify said "feats" at face value. We KNOW these ppl are doing impossible things.
Are you kidding me? Comedian was not LOOKING at Ozy. He was staring right at the pistol right as he threw his cup and grabbed the gun. He obviously lost [b]sight
of Ozy. What are you trying to argue here? That Comedian has some sort of 3rd eye or something? At best he had a sense of where his opponent WAS. And he clearly expected his cup to distract his opponent long enough for him to grab his gun. But guess what? Didn't work. His opponent MOVED. He moved fast, sure. But let's not overblow the "feat" like it took superspeed.He fought them with a combination of firearms and h2h. He also fought a superhuman on even terms H2H who has been shown to decimate entire platoons of tech-armed opponents in h2h wielding only a shield. He lost, sure, but he gave as much as he got. You like to laud Ozy's "quality" of opponents yet seem to gloss over how much better WS's opponents are.
Yes, Widow used tech. But she also fought swarms of bona fide superhuman aliens and robots (as well as trained soldiers). Owl and Ror? Thugs, cops and convicts. She also didn't wear special armor that made her dodge faster or land her blows more accurately. She just used tech to take them down faster or to bypass their durability. She's also taken down large opponents minus her tech. Including heavily trained Hydra agents using precision strikes. Or large thugs while her arms were tied while talking on the phone. Let's not pretend that she can't hit hard or disable tough opponents. Geez.
And YOU were the one who brought Falcon's showings (and Widow's for that matter) against WS like it was some sort of slight to Bucky's skill. Guess what? Falcon HAD his tech when he hit Bucky. And so did Widow. So your attempt to reverse the relevance of said tech towards WS showings (by attempting to highlight their "lack" of techless H2H showings) kinda falls flat.
Ozy did NOT fight superhuman opponents (relative to what superhumans are in movies). Nothing they did is something beyond what BW or (for that matter, Hawkeye) can do. Ror and Owl were clearly human level and only fought untrained (thugs and convicts) or semi-trained fodder (cops). Ror even lost to the damned cops. And Owl had help when he fought the convicts....
Ozy fought 0 superhumans (unless you count Dr M treating him like a gnat a "fight"😉. So tossing the "WS lost to a superhuman" showing is just kinda a meaningless attempt at lowballing.
And I never said that Ozy couldn't duplicate the bullet block. I SAID that WS had a "feat" that shows he can repsond to bullets that move much faster (although his showing was at a much lower difficulty). Pls try not to strawman my position and go ":Lol:". It makes you look disrespectful and desperate. And I mean this with no offense and would like to apologize in advance if it causes offense.
Ozy has shown no combat reflex showing to match the WS/Cap fights. He has the bullet catch "feat" as the absolute best his reflexes can do. Granted it is a badass showing, but let's not pretend that he demonstrated equivalent reflex in combat anywhere in Watchmen when he obviously did. Trying to equate bullet catching to combat speed is teying to pretend baseball players make great fighters cuz they can catch fast moving balls.... Doesn't work that way.
Again, overblowing Watchmen "feats" and lowballing Avengers "feats". I mean this will get kinda pointless if this is your entire M.O. Tsk. [/B]
BW alone is not more formidable in h2h than RO and NO are. not even close. They were literally breaking bones with strikes. Never seen BW do that. She's good, don't get me wrong, but she got the jump on WS.. those two never got the jump on Ozy.. even when he gave them his back and was talking to them.
I have a question for you... So do you believe ozy can only move his arm that fast to catch a bullet... so you don't believe he can move his arm that fast to punch then? His arm goes into hyper speed mode only when a bullet is fired? If you're being honest, you know this isn't true.
Punching speed has a lot more going for it than simply moving your arm fast. A proper punch needs proper body movements to deliver. It is not simply moving your arm to a specific space.
Table tennis players are able to move their arms at very high speeds to keep up with their fast ball, doesn't mean they're able to punch fast.
Originally posted by tkitna
They were strong enough that they were climbing up the side of buildings by sinking their fingers and hands into the foundation. Come on man.
Originally posted by FrothByte
And even if they were only as lethal as normal military men, Owl and Rosch didn't exactly go up against military men either.
👆 👆
Originally posted by FrothByte
Table tennis players are able to move their arms at very high speeds to keep up with their fast ball, doesn't mean they're able to punch fast.
True, because Boxing requires a different technique. But generally speaking, the more sports you excel in, the higher the chances of your muscle movements, timing and reactions being good enough for a different random sport. (Especially if they all focus on arm movement).
For example if someone hits tennis balls at high speed, throws basket balls at high speeds, bowls cricket balls at high speed, then chances are if they can box they will throwing punches at high speed as well.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
True, because Boxing requires a different technique. But generally speaking, the more sports you excel in, the higher the chances of your muscle movements, timing and reactions being good enough for a different random sport. (Especially if they all focus on arm movement).For example if someone hits tennis balls at high speed, throws basket balls at high speeds, bowls cricket balls at high speed, then chances are if they can box they will throwing punches at high speed as well.
Which is exactly why Ozy should be able to move his arm close to as fast as he can move his arm to catch a bullet. Why? Well because he's very skilled in MA and clearly punching.. kicking and blocking. He's likely worked on these aspects for years and years... perfecting his timing and encouraging fast twitch muscle use. We're talking about table tennis players punching.. we're talking about an already skilled and deadly MA punching. Using logic, he'd likely be able to punch close to that fast at least sometimes. Maybe not exactly that fast.. nor all the time... but he certainly can and would punch vastly faster than Bucky when using the speed he's capable of.
Originally posted by FrothByte
And even if they were only as lethal as normal military men, Owl and Rosch didn't exactly go up against military men either.
Do military men have so sort or quota of skillset and strength?
You have any proof watchmen thugs were vastly weaker than say a shield agent?are their tiers for unknown movie fodder?
Because from what i could tell they all have glass jaws in these films 😂
I only said military because they were alien troops.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
True, because Boxing requires a different technique. But generally speaking, the more sports you excel in, the higher the chances of your muscle movements, timing and reactions being good enough for a different random sport. (Especially if they all focus on arm movement).For example if someone hits tennis balls at high speed, throws basket balls at high speeds, bowls cricket balls at high speed, then chances are if they can box they will throwing punches at high speed as well.
Not necessarily. Or at least it depends on how they punch. If you base it from a boxer's technique, the punch is powered by the legs, the back and the core. There's a bit of hand/arm speed in their but generally when we talk about a boxer's "hand punching speed" it's not necessarily the speed of the hands and arms itself but the body's ability to launch fast fists. So an athlete used to making fast swings with their arms won't necessarily be able to do fast punches.
Other martial arts have punches that are purely delivered with the arm. Don't know enough about them to comment.
Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Do military men have so sort or quota of skillset and strength?
You have any proof watchmen thugs were vastly weaker than say a shield agent?are their tiers for unknown movie fodder?
Because from what i could tell they all have glass jaws in these films 😂I only said military because they were alien troops.
SHIELD agents have been pretty much shown to have consistent training and skills. Just watch Agents of SHIELD. Pretty much all agents there are decently adept at fighting. We have actual FEATS of them fighting and being good at it.
You can't say the same for the thugs that Watchmen took out.
Originally posted by FrothByte
SHIELD agents have been pretty much shown to have consistent training and skills. Just watch Agents of SHIELD. Pretty much all agents there are decently adept at fighting. We have actual FEATS of them fighting and being good at it.You can't say the same for the thugs that Watchmen took out.
I don't know i stopped watching that ass show around season 2 i believe.
But yes it is Canon.
Though the events in the show happened after the movie
Originally posted by FrothByte
Not necessarily. Or at least it depends on how they punch. If you base it from a boxer's technique, the punch is powered by the legs, the back and the core. There's a bit of hand/arm speed in their but generally when we talk about a boxer's "hand punching speed" it's not necessarily the speed of the hands and arms itself but the body's ability to launch fast fists. So an athlete used to making fast swings with their arms won't necessarily be able to do fast punches.Other martial arts have punches that are purely delivered with the arm. Don't know enough about them to comment.
This is sort of true. But not really... for example speed, on a speed bag requires to legs, hips or back... that is how you work on speed, timing and hand eye coordination. Plus often times in a fight, you don't have time to plant your feet and torque or body into a punch... i.e. if you're fighting of your back foot or moving as you're punching. The things you mention are more to do with power shots... which is generated from your hips and legs... but that is where the power comes from... not where the speed comes from. Your arm speed is measured by how fast you can punch... not how fast you can power punch. Now, I will concede that in a fight...an actual boxing match... you're usually somewhere in between those two extremes.... so for practical purposes at times during a fight... you're torqueing your body to punch and it's not even a true power shot. So what you say is kind of true, but also not true.
Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Knowing that catching that bullet is impossible and what skills are required to pull off such a feat you'd agree ozy most possess extremely fast arm movement much more so than buckey right?Whether or not he could see ozy is irrelevant considering along with that he did not hear ozy either. Do you see the distance between that doorway and where he ended up? Also do you see the furniture obstructing a straight line path to that area? All of the happened in slow-mo mind you and couldn't have happened in but a mere sec. Again a speed feat out of buckeys skillset.
Firearms helped him out like i said. Buckeys opponents themselves depend on tech to help them in fights... the only person Bucky fought pure hand to hand is cap and lost pretty clearly each time. You keep bringing up Buckys competition when he never won against them h2h.
if Bucky had won a fight with the heroes id agree his stats are as you claim. But really he simply did no damage to them.Yes bw has fought military personnel... with guns and tech
Aliens didn't appear stronger than the average military human( have no idea where you got they were strong)
And some goons while tied to a chair. Point is you're classifying as some superhuman fighter when she does fight well she must use gadgets and weaponry to push forward. There's no arguing with this. Now to the main point the thugs, cops, and convicts were being kicked around and punched through suggesting watchmen heroes are peak/ superhuman. Which is stronger than BW and actually not too far from cap level. Never said should couldn't hit hard lol.
Only stated she's clearly not a physically strong as the watchmen.That underline part. Don't understand what you're saying. Everyone has brought up BW in this thread.
Owl, ror, and SS are clearly strong AF how are they not peak/ superhuman?
You keep bringing up watchmen fodder as if they posed some type of threat and weren't decimated by the heroes.
Only ror was captured by the cops he's probably less stronger than owl and ss.You keep bringing up fights that bucky lost decisively of course im going to bring that up he couldn't do damage to cap. yet you expect me to believe they're on the same level filmwise therefore he's miles better than ozy? I do believe Bucky wins because his strength advantage. Not because he's that good h2h.
I can't help how you feel about what i type. honestly You should probably suck it up...IJS
Bucky blocked some bullets...wow
Ozy caught a bullet...So we can count the fact ozy was fast enough to catch a bullet because doing so would mean hes untouchable H2H (which he wasn't touched)
Bucky however gets praised for losing to cap? Something ozy is fully capable of doing? Even batroc did that. Are we to believe batroc can beat ozy as well?
I believe thats called bias
Let me get this straight...
In this one reply, you claim:
-That something that is "impossible" to NORMAL HUMANS is somehow relevant in a discussion about fictional superhumans.
-That Bucky somehow didn't win against his "competition", like Widow (who he almost killed had Cap not intervened) or Falcon (who he took out of the fight within seconds). That he did "no damage" to them, although Falcon lost a wing and got tossed out and Natasha got herself shot and he had her dead to rights. And Cap. Well, see below.
-That Ozy, who had a good 2-3 seconds to clear 12-15 feet has somehow performed a superspeed "feat", and it was all done off screen. And it was superspeed even tho we never really saw what happened. All because Comedian couldn't hear where he was. Like it's impossible to take someone by surprise because you can be quiet. Quiet = superspeed, apparently.
-That Bucky did no damage to Cap:
-That Watchmen characters that punched thugs and cops are peak/superhuman but claim that BW who also beat up thugs, mercs, large security personnel as well as better trained military special ops (several times without using her tech on them and even once with her arms tied up) with even more ease (as many times, she had no help doing so) is somehow not because TECHZZZ!
-That Natasha only really does well only because she uses her tech. Even tho:
>In IM2, she beat (0:39-0:50) 3 opponents without using her tech and disables one more at (1:15),
>takes out 3 opponents while tied to a chair with no tech as well (2:15),
>beats up an armed out-to-kill Hawkeye without the use of her tech (4:00-4:50)
>takes out 3 armed HYDRA agents in H2H with precision strikes, only temp stunning one other via a stun disc and taking him out later h2h (7:01-7:14). In a skirt and heels of all things.
But yeah, she only really does well with her techzzss!!!
-That Natasha isn't really strong even though she's fought larger opponents and took them down with one or 2 hits or fought superhuman opponents and took them down or at one point even grabbed onto a fast moving alien speeder with one hand, supporting her own weight against the sudden pull of the speeder's velocity.
-That Chitauri are not superhuman and are simply "military men" strong. Even tho, they jumped out of moving speeders 20+ feet in the air to land on the ground with little effort or get launched 50 feet to the side of a building and grabbed on with nothing more than their hands or when one Chitauri actually grabbed Cap (a bona fide superhuman), he couldn't really escape its grip without backflipping out of it. Because, let me guess, they have super strong leg strength and super strong grip strength but they's gots normal "military man" arm strengthz!!! That's all they have cuz: reasons! I'm sure, after all, these kinds of abilities are standard for "military men". /sarcasm
And of course, you gloss over the opponents they fought with unquestionable super strength "feats" (Ultron bots), because: morez reasonsz...!
-That fodder in Watchmen posed no threat to them and were "decimated" by them, only to admit in the next paragraph that Ror DID indeed get taken out by fodder and fodder WERE indeed a threat to him.
-That catching a bullet (that was heavily telegraphed), by moving one's arms fast automatically translates to someone being untouchable in a fight. Baseball pitchers must be closet MMA champs. And somehow blocking bullets don't count, because reasons. Because we don't block in fights. <--- altho, I will admit that this "feat" is awesome.
-That somehow Batroc did as well against Cap as he did because only the results matter and not how well you did against an opponent. After all, an opponent that lasts a full 5 championship rounds in MMA but loses in the end did just as well as that schmuck that lasted 15 seconds.
If there is any bias here, it has to come from the one who overblows his "feats" even though there is a lack of evidence. Downplays the other side's "feats" and abilities even tho there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary or even just downright ignores "feats" and showings.
Yeahhhhh, I wonder who's been doing that... hmm
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is sort of true. But not really... for example speed, on a speed bag requires to legs, hips or back... that is how you work on speed, timing and hand eye coordination. Plus often times in a fight, you don't have time to plant your feet and torque or body into a punch... i.e. if you're fighting of your back foot or moving as you're punching. The things you mention are more to do with power shots... which is generated from your hips and legs... but that is where the power comes from... not where the speed comes from. Your arm speed is measured by how fast you can punch... not how fast you can power punch. Now, I will concede that in a fight...an actual boxing match... you're usually somewhere in between those two extremes.... so for practical purposes at times during a fight... you're torqueing your body to punch and it's not even a true power shot. So what you say is kind of true, but also not true.
Speed bag punching is not what you use to punch in a fight. Also, a simple jab is powered by similar body movements as a right cross or a hook. There is no such thing in boxing as a punch delivered purely by hands. Whether this is true in other martial arts I don't know.
Lmao Nibedicus... do you seriously read what you're posting?
Superspeed = quiet? serious? You seriously believe someone can move that distance around furniture silently without comedian noticing?
You're also missing the point that SS and NO were showing beyond human levels of strength against those thugs
You've disregarded and not even acknowledged the fact they're stronger than BW physically.
You've admitted ozy caught a bullet AFTER it was fired
Yet continue to argue his handspeed and armspeed...
I already told you i believe Bucky wins and you still get butthurt over the fact that Ozy is indeed faster than Bucky.
But now that ive looked at the facts i myself have change my vote to ozy.
Play Fighting 2 peak/superhuman opponents
Moving from doorway to behind comedian before comedian realized
Kicking ror and no around like toys giving him sufficient strength to hang with Bucky.
catching a bullet
Meanwhile Bucky feats are mostly accomplished with his proficiency with firearms.
He barely survived his encounters with cap yet you believe he'll walk over ozy because he simply fought him? Lol
Even batroc did that.
Anyways
Look i know this fight means alot to you so I'll just split the fight down the middle and give both opponents 5/10
Neither is a slouch when it's comes to h2h and both are cool AF