Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
that is true but a Kevlar glove would about as useful as Kevlar face mask.

i do agree that the gloves are no ordinary fabric however.

the bullet flattening could just as well be a testament to ozy durability.
i doubt SS would believe shooting a man whom she knew was covered in kevlar-like material would do anything...

Like I said, several materials IRL that can already adequately function as armor for gloves and could more or less perform the way the gloves did. Graphene and liquid armor are some examples. Bottom line, we don't know what the material is. Just that it stopped the bullet.

Ozy being naturally bulletproof runs counter to the whole premise of the Watchmen universe. And SS would be even less likely to shoot someone who is durable enough to have bullets flatten against his skin. Also, SS wouldn't really know what Ozy's armor is made of in the first place.

Anyway, I think we agree here that the glove is made of some strange armor we don't know about.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Rob is correct and that is exactly as I remembered it. Which is the point we're making here. He required no glove to pull the feat in the book, and here, without proof of what it is, we can't just assign it anything specific. Facts aren't there. The overriding fact is, he needs no glove and regardless.... You can call it adamantium for all I care.. while it is a good durability feat.. I wasn't arguing that point either way. I'm going to go find the section and see any talk about a glove.

What's funny herej, is the opposing side was trying to use this as a low showing for Ozy. That is how this line of discussion started. They said, even with a armored glove.. he was still stunned and hurt LOL. It couldn't be more obvious he spun to negate the force of the bullet and likely was either throw a little back from it.. or more likely.. being Ozy and all.. he's smart enough to know he can't keep bullet grabbing like that... he needs to act dead.. fall down.. let the dramatics begin and smirk as you open your eyes. Yet somehow, they tried to say it was low durability showing lol

Point is you can call that whatever material you like... he caught the damn bullet. Period. That poops and any speed or reaction feat from Bucky. And by poop, I mean the worst cause of the shits you've ever had.

I have the book. I know he stopped it bare handed there. Sadly, they changed a lot of things in the movie to make it more palatable to the market.

It is a low showing durability-wise. As superhumans go anyway. While he DID most likely spin to dissipate the energy (and I cannot stress how much I agree with this), enough energy was left over to stun him and make him fall and topple down a full flight of steps. Had he not been stunned by the shot, it would make more sense (him being a tactical genuis as you said) to not lose your footing and to not expose yourself to further shots by lying on your back.

Playing possum against an opponent who has a gun and is determined to kill you, is rather stupid. Luck only made him live as SS didn't perform a double tap.

And no one is arguing that he caught the bullet. Great reaction "feat". Shitty durability "feat". 😂

Agreed - about ozy armor

That's also a plus for him having armor that durable

Let me quantify the bullet catch "feat" so ppl have a better idea what we're really talking about here. Pls feel free to check my math.

Variables:

.38 Special ave. muzzle speed: 650 mph
Distance covered by bullet: 6-8 feet based on the angle SS shot her. Will go with 6 feet.
Distance arm needed to cover to catch bullet: 1-1.5 feet tops as Ozy only required to lift his right arm to catch it. Left arm seemed to get raised but at the end, it was his right hand that caught the bullet. Left arm may well have been used to try and control his fall.

6 feet vs 1.5 feet for hand within same span of time means arm only needs to travel 1/4 the speed of the bullet or around 162.5 mph. This number will fluctuate based on distance, bullet type and other factors.

Fastest punch is about 45mph, fastest throws around 100 mph.

Feel free to check my math.

Take this information however you wish.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Agreed - about ozy armor

That's also a plus for him having armor that durable

Yes, him having bullet resistant (at the very least) armor is actually a plus for him in terms of formidably. But don't tell KT that, it's fun watching him have a coronary.

Films only.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I have the book. I know he stopped it bare handed there. Sadly, they changed a lot of things in the movie to make it more palatable to the market.

It is a low showing durability-wise. As superhumans go anyway. While he DID most likely spin to dissipate the energy (and I cannot stress how much I agree with this), enough energy was left over to stun him and make him fall and topple down a full flight of steps. Had he not been stunned by the shot, it would make more sense (him being a tactical genuis as you said) to not lose your footing and to not expose yourself to further shots by lying on your back.

Playing possum against an opponent who has a gun and is determined to kill you, is rather stupid. Luck only made him live as SS didn't perform a double tap.

And no one is arguing that he caught the bullet. Great reaction "feat". Shitty durability "feat". 😂

See you've now dug yourself a big hole bud.

Tell me, what exactly caused him to be stunned/flash KO'd as you seem to believe? If the bullet didn't hit his head.. why was he evem stunned and disoriented like you've claimed? Those things where you're on the ground... stunned.... hurt... disoriented momentarily generally always happen from head trauma. You will get extenuating circumstances for blows to your chest etc etc. Point is, his chest always wasn't hit. We've seen hands crushed by cars... ran over... mangled by various means. They act hurt and in pain like they just f'ed their hand up... screaming. But what they aren't are stunned/flashed KO'd like they received head trauma.

Then when you consider that as you say... the armor negated most of the impact. After all, as you like to point out, he didn't bleed because most of the force was stopped. Yes, he didn't bleed. Cool. Thus there was no traumatic screaming omg I messed up my hand. Nothing, nary a word, just falling down like you'd just been shot in the chest... or how'd you act if you'd just been hit in the head.

What we can also rule out is that Ozy is beyond faking situations and making your foe think one thing, when it's really the other. He even does so in the scene. I was never really KO'd.. yet his eyes were closed... He then dramatically lets his hand drop and opens his eyes with a smirk. Again, in that situation it was the smart thing to do. Now is Ozy smart, would he do such a thing?

Duh, he's the smartest guy on earth. Which brings me to my next point. Yes, he would know exactly what SS would do. He has a pretty good idea what most everybody would do don't ya think? I thought that was beat into our heads in every medium possible. Yes, Ozy would know what she and they would do, especially people he knows will try and stop him. People he's been intimately involved with before.. Yeah, I think he's got them psychologically peg.

Did Kt really just say someone else dug themselves into a hole ?

😂

i assumed people were saying that bullet to the hand stun/ko thing as a joke 😂

wasnt it? 😐

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
See you've now dug yourself a big hole bud.

Tell me, what exactly caused him to be stunned/flash KO'd as you seem to believe? If the bullet didn't hit his head.. why was he evem stunned and disoriented like you've claimed? Those things where you're on the ground... stunned.... hurt... disoriented momentarily generally always happen from head trauma. You will get extenuating circumstances for blows to your chest etc etc. Point is, his chest always wasn't hit. We've seen hands crushed by cars... ran over... mangled by various means. They act hurt and in pain like they just f'ed their hand up... screaming. But what they aren't are stunned/flashed KO'd like they received head trauma.

Then when you consider that as you say... the armor negated most of the impact. After all, as you like to point out, he didn't bleed because most of the force was stopped. Yes, he didn't bleed. Cool. Thus there was no traumatic screaming omg I messed up my hand. Nothing, nary a word, just falling down like you'd just been shot in the chest... or how'd you act if you'd just been hit in the head.

What we can also rule out is that Ozy is beyond faking situations and making your foe think one thing, when it's really the other. He even does so in the scene. I was never really KO'd.. yet his eyes were closed... He then dramatically lets his hand drop and opens his eyes with a smirk. Again, in that situation it was the smart thing to do. Now is Ozy smart, would he do such a thing?

Duh, he's the smartest guy on earth. Which brings me to my next point. Yes, he would know exactly what SS would do. He has a pretty good idea what most everybody would do don't ya think? I thought that was beat into our heads in every medium possible. Yes, Ozy would know what she and they would do, especially people he knows will try and stop him. People he's been intimately involved with before.. Yeah, I think he's got them psychologically peg.

Strawman. No one said "flash KO'd" you're just inserting that here to try and paint an absurd argument no one made. He was stunned. Meaning the impact of the bullet most likely hurt his hand badly. Which makes a LOT of sense if the glove he used was bullet resistant.

It makes no sense to fall down a flight of steps when you can simply catch yourself or recover your footing at least before you fall (him having the reflexes to easily do so). Spinning to dissipate the energy of the bullet wouldn't take an entire flight of stairs to do. Unless, of course, you think he fell down the steps for fun.

Pain tolerance is something we don't know Ozy to have or not have, and his hand may have well been messed up under the gloves and he was just good at hiding/ignoring the pain (save for the slight grimace on his face when he pulled the bullet out of his glove). And ppl who crush their hands and end up screaming in agony are actually way worse off than "stunned". I mean, do you know what "stunned"even means? facepalm

Never said the armor negated the impact. I said the armor prevented the penetration of the bullet. Meaning that the "feat" isn't some sort of hand/skin durability "feat" for Ozy as that would run counter to the entire premise of Watchmen. Again, strawman.

Because he was stunned an needed to catch his breath. When he caught it, he countered when his shooter (who were dumb enough to come in close). This isn't really a showing of Ozy's intellect but a showing of how dumb SS can be (CIS) as any other person IRL would have double tapped the dude as soon as he was on his back. And even if he figured that SS was a dumb bimbo and approach a helpless opponent on his back, playing possum against an opponent armed with a gun out to kill you is tactically risky/foolish and unnecessary. Kinda like the whole bullet catch thing, now that I think about it. Maybe Ozy isn't as tactically brilliant as he's trying to be made out?

Seriously, bro. You need to stop claiming victory or concession or somesuch before you even read your opponent's rebuttal. Especially when there may well be simple explanations that blow your theories out of the water.

Kt is a joke who doesn't understand simple terms and makes up imaginary concessions when he can't rebut the points.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
i assumed people were saying that bullet to the hand stun/ko thing as a joke 😂

wasnt it? 😐

No one said KO.

In fact, I've already previously clarified with this:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Who said KO?

Stunned is not KO'd. Stunned enough to fall over and fall down steps (unles you think he fell down steps for fun). And was on the ground for several seconds all vulenerable.

Stunned is a reasonable assumption as ppl CAN get stunned when they get hurt and Ozy falling down the steps doesn't make tactical sense especially when he easily has the reflexes to simply catch himself falling down. And you already said that someone catching a bullet with their hand would mess their hand up pretty badly even when armored.

"KO" is KT's attempt at creating an absurd argument for the other side to make his argument more palatable. Weak tactic, but meh.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Strawman. No one said "flash KO'd" you're just inserting that here to try and paint an absurd argument no one made. He was stunned. Meaning the impact of the bullet most likely hurt his hand badly. Which makes a LOT of sense if the glove he used was bullet resistant.

It makes no sense to fall down a flight of steps when you can simply catch yourself or recover your footing at least before you fall (him having the reflexes to easily do so). Spinning to dissipate the energy of the bullet wouldn't take an entire flight of stairs to do. Unless, of course, you think he fell down the steps for fun.

Pain tolerance is something we don't know Ozy to have or not have, and his hand may have well been messed up under the gloves and he was just good at hiding/ignoring the pain (save for the slight grimace on his face when he pulled the bullet out of his glove. And ppl who crush their hands and end up screaming in agony are actually way worse off than "stunned". I mean, do you know what "stunned"even means? facepalm

Never said the armor negated the impact. I said the armor prevented the penetration of the bullet. Meaning that the "feat" isn't some sort of hand/skin durability "feat" for Ozy as that would run counter to the entire premise of Watchmen. Again, strawman.

Because he was stunned an needed to catch his breath. When he caught it, he countered when his shooter (who were dumb enough to come in close). This isn't really a showing of Ozy's intellect but a showing of how dumb SS can be (CIS) as any other person IRL would have double tapped the dude as soon as he was on his back. And even if he figured that SS was a dumb bimbo and approach a helpless opponent on his back, playing possum against an opponent armed with a gun out to kill you is tactically risky/foolish and unnecessary. Kinda like the whole bullet catch thing, now that I think about it. Maybe Ozy isn't as tactically brilliant as he's trying to be made out?

Seriously, bro. You need to stop claiming victory or concession or somesuch before you even read your opponent's rebuttal. Especially when there may well be simple explanations that blow your theories out of the water.

Actually I was spot on, people have even said worse, they've said he was KO'd. Even more damming. So no, there was no strawman there. I said what people have said, and or implied.

This is exactly as I thought, you're not comprehending the points you're making. You're not seeing the bigger picture. Think about it:

Do people who get their hands mangled act like they've been struck in the head? That is exactly how Ozy acted. He didn't act like he had a traumatic injury to his hand. I love how you cite real life in one breathe, and in another totally forget the sky is blue. People DON'T act like Ozy did with traumatic hand injuries. We see them all the time, watch any number of reality shows, they aren't lying there with their eyes closed as if they'd been shot in the chest or head (hint) OR hit in the head. That's when they act like Ozy did correct?

On the contrary, we see them agonizing in pain, screaming, calling for help. Do you see someone shot in the hand.. and the next thing you know.. they are on the ground with their eyes closed? Of course not.

OMG... did you say it didn't stop some of the force of the impact? lol wut??? You do realize what it means when you can stop something moving at those speeds from penetrating your hand right? You do understand how much force is being dissipated to even allow that to be possible? Nobody said it's negated fully.

Then when you factor in you saying it wasn't KO'd. Which you've said over and over... you even mention how you've never said flash KO'd (others have said KO'd) Thus, you can have no other view than that he was faking being KO'd correct? How else could his eyes be closed if he wasn't faking? Which of course makes sense, since ya know, we know Ozy is a fan of the dramatic.. we see Ozy with a smirk as he opens his eyes. Clearly demonstrating he wasn't KO'd. People don't wake up from something that was strong enough to KO them with the haha gotcha smirk... unless.. wait for it.. wait for it.. they are faking. So if you claim he wasn't KO'd... thus your claiming he was faking by default.

So we are left with Ozy faking part of the scene to gain the advantage over his foe and get the drop on them. He does. or we're left with the oh so logical theory of.. The shot mangled his hand so bad that it stunned him... he wasn't KO'd though mind you.. the whole eyes closed thing was just him playing around... but man was he ever so stunned by that people. Shit we could hear him act like a crazied animal it hurt him so bad.. Oh wait...

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No one said KO.

In fact, I've already previously clarified with this:

Stunned is a reasonable assumption as ppl CAN get stunned when they get hurt and Ozy falling down the steps doesn't make tactical sense especially when he easily has the reflexes to simply catch himself falling down. And you already said that someone catching a bullet with their hand would mess their hand up pretty badly even when armored.

"KO" is KT's attempt at creating an absurd argument for the other side to make his argument more palatable. Weak tactic, but meh.

So it's your claim nobody said KO'd or flash KO'd in this thread to describe Ozy reaction to being shot? Seems so eh?

Further, IT WAS TACTICALLY SMART.. It worked. For f sakes. You say something was tactically dumb when it fails. When you're the certified smartest guy on the planet. When you do something.. and it works.. chances are you know it would and that's exactly why you did it. Do you even know who Ozy is?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually I was spot on, people have even said worse, they've said he was KO'd. Even more damming. So no, there was no strawman there. I said what people have said, and or implied.

This is exactly as I thought, you're not comprehending the points you're making. You're not seeing the bigger picture. Think about it:

Do people who get their hands mangled act like they've been struck in the head? That is exactly how Ozy acted. He didn't act like he had a traumatic injury to his hand. I love how you cite real life in one breathe, and in another totally forget the sky is blue. People DON'T act like Ozy did with traumatic hand injuries. We see them all the time, watch any number of reality shows, they aren't lying there with their eyes closed as if they'd been shot in the chest or head (hint) OR hit in the head. That's when they act like Ozy did correct?

On the contrary, we see them agonizing in pain, screaming, calling for help. Do you see someone shot in the hand.. and the next thing you know.. they are on the ground with their eyes closed? Of course not.

OMG... did you say it didn't stop some of the force of the impact? lol wut??? You do realize what it means when you can stop something moving at those speeds from penetrating your hand right? You do understand how much force is being dissipated to even allow that to be possible? Nobody said it's negated fully.

Then when you factor in you saying it wasn't KO'd. Which you've said over and over... you even mention how you've never said flash KO'd (others have said KO'd) Thus, you can have no other view than that he was faking being KO'd correct? How else could his eyes be closed if he wasn't faking? Which of course makes sense, since ya know, we know Ozy is a fan of the dramatic.. we see Ozy with a smirk as he opens his eyes. Clearly demonstrating he wasn't KO'd. People don't wake up from something that was strong enough to KO them with the haha gotcha smirk... unless.. wait for it.. wait for it.. they are faking. So if you claim he wasn't KO'd... thus your claiming he was faking by default.

So we are left with Ozy faking part of the scene to gain the advantage over his foe and get the drop on them. He does. or we're left with the oh so logical theory of.. The shot mangled his hand so bad that it stunned him... he wasn't KO'd though mind you.. the whole eyes closed thing was just him playing around... but man was he ever so stunned by that people. Shit we could hear him act like a crazied animal it hurt him so bad.. Oh wait...

Now it's SOME ELSE who said KO? Nice flipflop, too bad you really can't untype what you've already typed and it's plain for everyone to see:

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Tell me, what exactly caused him to be stunned/flash KO'd as you seem to believe?

🙄

Um. So you're saying Ozy acted like he got hit in the head? NOW who's digging a hole for himself. 😐

You act like everyone reacts to hand injuries the same way, like reactions to things like pain or shock is somehow identical for everyone.

And your basis? Reality shows. 😐

Get out of the freakin sofa, man.

Yes, I know exactly how much energy (not force, energy) is being dissipated. Around 212-277 joules (doubt the bullet was a hollow point so it's prolly not 320j). About 2-3 average karate punches worth (go back a few pages and check my numbers with sources). It seems between the 2 of us, it's you who doesn't know how much energy is being dissipated. 😆

I already said, he was stunned, he fell, he caught his breath after a few seconds. Ppl have had a tendency to close their eyes to catch their breath, you know. It's like everything has to function based on your limited understanding of the possibilities that can occur. In a work of fiction, no less. Well, sorry to say, doesn't work that way.

The shot doesn't have to "magically" mangle his hand. We don't see what happened to his hand. What we DO know is that he fell from the impact and he ended up on his back a good few seconds. Which makes sense if he hurt his hand pretty badly. Which makes sense if he used his hand to catch a bullet. The rest is just a theory of yours, that doesn't really make tactical sense and that you can't really prove beyond speculation.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So it's your claim nobody said KO'd or flash KO'd in this thread to describe Ozy reaction to being shot? Seems so eh?

Further, IT WAS TACTICALLY SMART.. It worked. For f sakes. You say something was tactically dumb when it fails. When you're the certified smartest guy on the planet. When you do something.. and it works.. chances are you know it would and that's exactly why you did it. Do you even know who Ozy is?

Haha. Now you want me to prove that nobody said KO when your initial accusation was directed at me. Flipflop.

Wow. Do you live in the real world?

No plans IRL that works was projected to work 100% that is what force majeure means. Or exemplified by the expression "shit happens". Funny thing is, risk assessment is part of what I do for a living so you're really talking to the wrong person about how plans should or should not work.

A smart tactician minimizes his risks and would know that someone meaning to kill you pulling a trigger on you again can go either way. Ozy isn't stupid, he would know this.

from what i saw he was being theatrical... from what we know he could have easily avoided the bullet all together considering he bothered to catch the thing... his suit is also capable of protecting even his weakest body parts such as his hand. no reason he couldnt have taken the shot to the chest or moved out the way and go on to beat her ass other than movie theatrics

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
from what i saw he was being theatrical... from what we know he could have easily avoided the bullet all together considering he bothered to catch the thing... his suit is also capable of protecting even his weakest body parts such as his hand. no reason he couldnt have taken the shot to the chest and go on to beat her ass other than movie theatrics

Yup! Finally something I can agree with.

I strongly agree about theatrics (tho comic theatrics would be a more accurate term as they simply copied the scene from comics). From a storytelling perspective, he likely did it to test himself and it seemed like he wasn't even sure it would work. The result was surprising (to him and his opponents) and it stretched his abilities and equipment to their limits.

Hell, he could have just ducked, covered the distance and disarmed her easily. He is certainly fast enough and she certainly waited long enough to pull the trigger. Heck, he did something similar to Comedian and he had to cover a further distance.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Haha. Now you want me to prove that nobody said KO when your initial accusation was directed at me. Flipflop.

Wow. Do you live in the real world?

No plans IRL that works was projected to work 100% that is what force majeure means. Or exemplified by the expression "shit happens". Funny thing is, risk assessment is part of what I do for a living so you're really talking to the wrong person about how plans should or should not work.

A smart tactician minimizes his risks and would know that someone meaning to kill you pulling a trigger on you again can go either way. Ozy isn't stupid, he would know this.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Yup! Finally something I can agree with.

I strongly agree about theatrics (tho comic theatrics would be a more accurate term as they simply copied the scene from comics). From a storytelling perspective, he likely did it to test himself and it seemed like he wasn't even sure it would work. The result was surprising (to him and his opponents) and it stretched his abilities and equipment to their limits.

Hell, he could have just ducked, covered the distance and disarmed her easily. He is certainly fast enough and she certainly waited long enough to pull the trigger. Heck, he did something similar to Comedian and he had to cover a further distance.

why do you believe he was testing himself? also i didnt see him or his equipment exhausted in any way to indicate they were pushed to their limits

edit -him deciding to catch the bullets out of these options is where the theatrics come into play.