Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
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We take all the above "Facts" at face value as those all happened in the film and cannot be disputed. Now a lot of us would be scratching our heads at the why of all this, as to many it wouldn't make sense to catch a bullet if you can just simply catch it. I personally came up with said theory as something I thought to -myself- so that it would make sense to -me-. I then shared it here so that I can inform ppl on what I thought to lighten the mood a bit. I, however, at no time, did insist that this is what ACTUALLY happened as there are little/no facts supporting said theory. I agreed with SO as I thought we believed the same things. As soon as he switched to trolling me and made it apparent that we actually shared different views, I clarified. Immediately. With extreme specificity. He, instead, decided to completely misrepresent what I said simply to troll me. Not very effectively, but it is sad that he'd managed to suck one other person into it.

I hope you took the time to read that. And I hope that clears things up.

Anyway, moving on:

First, please don't go "least supported view" when you only really have one other person supporting yours. It's disingenuous.

Second, your implication that he was playing dead is a theory. Just like my above theory. And, equally, it has as much weight. Zero. Prove it or shut it.

Fact: Ozy catches bullet.
Fact: Ozy falls down after catching bullet.
Fact: Ozy falls down the full length of the stairs and did not recover his balance/footing even though he certainly had the skills to do so.

The above is indisputable. This all happened on screen and no one can argue it.

Playing dead? Theory.

Third, let me get this straight, you want me to find a video with an EXACT real-life situation where a guy injures their hand, gets stunned, lies down, closes their eyes, then stands up with a smile on their face? Sure, I'll do it!!! Right after you find a video/news clips of a guy catching a bullet, pretends to be dead by falling down steps and lying down with his eyes closed and then shows the bullet to everyone.

Silly isn't it?

Fourth, your basis for trying to prove how a fictional armored hand of a fictional character is by watching Tosh and World's dumbest. This is the extent of your life experience and this is your foundation of knowledge in medicine. Then you make assertions that a person can only react a certain way to sudden limb injuries/pain. Yes, many of those DO happen IRL. NO, those are not the ONLY possible reactions to pain/injury. Sheesh.

Me? My wife's a Physical Therapist that specializes in sports injuries, her mom a nurse, her dad a doctor. 3 relatives that are doctors. One surgeon. I used to box, I have actually broken my hand (well 2 fingers anyway) and my wrist. I also broke my ankle (as well as sprained them multiple times) in sports injuries. I do not recall once crying and yelling out or writhing in agony like you say a person should based on what you've learned from your Tosh and World's Dumbest friends that time I broke my fingers/wrist (I did cry out once when I broke my ankle, however). Granted, adrenaline (never get angry when sparring) and shock from the pain must have dulled my sense of pain, the shiner i got sure wasn't bothering me that time. I do remember feeling dizzy and had to sit down from the pain. I was in agony, no doubt. But I didn't act like a 5 year old with a boo boo like you seem to expect everyone should act.

You must know that:

A person can get stunned by a sudden injury or pain to a body part. Again, not saying KO'd. Stunned.
A person can fall down or lose their balance if said cause of injury/pain that stunned them also carried a lot of force in it.
A person (especially one with a degree of pain tolerance) can recover and stand up if said pain and injury is something they can tolerate.

You must understand shows are there for entertainment? And that many times they select the loudest and funniest ones to get the ratings.

You must also understand that not everyone behaves exactly the same way to pain and injury. And depending on the circumstances, the person involved and the nature of the injury, reactions can VARY greatly.

You must surely understand that when talking about fictional characters with superhuman abilities, even these facts need to be thrown out and we should just follow the story and take things at face value?

Seriously, get off the couch. Once a person uses reality shows as a basis of how the world should work, you just KNOW there's a problem there.

Disclaimer - I had to cut off some of your post as my response combined with yours was too big. Just as an FYI

I don't care what context you made your statement in or what you were talking about. I'm only illustrating your blatant hypocrisy in your "theory" Think about it, if you find it plausible that he could pull theatrics to be dramatic (we know Ozy does this) then why would be hard to believe he'd pull "theatrics" to make an enemy with a guy think he's dead. One you purpose as your "theory", which by proxy, one would assume you've factored in various variables to come up with a theory that makes sense. That is the issue. If you haphazardly just said "theatrics" or testing himself without thinking about it is one thing.. you said you've thought about it, which implies due diligence on the matter. Thus, why would he think its a good idea to put himself in unneeded risk by actually putting him in the line of fire... why is that an okay necessary risk.. when playing dead with a person who has a gun is too much of an unneeded risk. One is EXPOENTIALLY greater risk than the other. Yet, you decided the exponentially greater risk is the more plausible one.. while the... OMGZORZ why would he play dead with an armed gunman in so unneeded it can't be true LMAO. Jesus, do you listen to yourself Nib. I'm genuinely asking here.

Again, I SPECIFICALLY said not everybody is the same, and there could be a small... extremely small sector of the world who would receive a hand injury.. and show no pain.. no emotion.... nothing... but instead just fall over.. close your eyes... still no emotion... then stand up with s smirk. Find me some of these videos.

I love how you decided to move the goalposts and say find me somebody catching a bullet HAHAHAHAHHA. This discussion isn't about that specific scenario. What we are discussing is the likelihood of ones reaction to a injury and what that would therefore imply. It has nothing to do with the specific type of injury or how you got injured and EVERYTHING to do with your reaction to said injury.

You just admitted most people do show some sign of pain or express it, but not everybody is the same. Thanks Captain Obvious. The point, you're choosing to side with view that isn't common, in fact it's so uncommon, I doubt you'd even be able to find one video where somebody reacts like that getting their hand injured. That is the point. The preponderance of evidence points to people showing reaction... showing emotion... grabbing their hand in pain. HE DID NONE of those things. None. Yet somehow, the more likely theory in your opinion is that he was stunned and his hand hurt badly enough to be stunned... yet did nothing like most people would react. Somehow that is more likely that Ozy continuing his theatrics (something he's known for doing) and playing dead. A tried a tested maneuver to get people to drop their guard. Somehow that is less believable than your theory. I'm sorry, but that is totally illogical viewpoint to take with the facts.

Just so we're clear here... You do agree most people you've seen or encountered react as I describe and not how Ozy did correct? Further, please don't talk to me about sports and injuries as if you're some expert in the matter. I've broken my leg playing soccer.. Ankle playing basketball (State College).. fingers playing basketball or boxing... Never not once... was I hurt badly and I just fell down... didn't make a sound and closed my eyes. I've witnessed plenty of injuries and never, not once see somebody act as Ozy did. They ALL, every single one of them, has acted in one of the ways I described. Nice try.. I never said they scream like a baby.. but even your injuries, you didn't do what Ozy did. I 100% guarantee there was pain on your face... you were gripping your hurt extremity... you likely expressed verbally you were in pain. You know, normal reactions most people do. What you didn't do.. and what I've never seen anybody do... is act how Ozy did when they hurt their hand. Period.

The point of the RL shows is EVEN more proof to go along with my documented history in sports and just real life where you see people get hurt. Never, in ANY medium have I see somebody act that way. Yet I loved your theory of.. oh on those shows they pick people who show pain when they get hurt.. the other ones don't make the show... LMAO.. Cool, then you should have plenty of case evidence to support your theory right? Excellent, I look forward to seeing these reactions. You haven't either, yet here, you say oh yeah seems perfectly plausible for Ozy to act that way.. LOL wtf. that is exactly going against what is most logical and most common. To argue otherwise is, well, sorry to say, pretty dumb Nib and you're better than this.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Hey man, it was 10 feet if you mean the Ror face kick. I used the TV's as a reference and counted it from Ozy's body positioning as he took flight. Was around almost 4 tvs distance. Each TV is around 2.5 feet as Ror was around 2 TV's length while his knees and body were bent (0:39). The rest of the distance was his fall downward while still carrying some of the momentum from the kick.

And Ror flying didn't pulverise the column, either. He just bounced off it. You must be remembering wrong. (0:50-0:52)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CYN7_Aa7E

Here is a diagram I used to determine his flight and distance:

First image is his starting point prior to flight.

Second image is his ending/impact point. With the added fall trajectory outlined.

No, no, you're right. I was mistaken. I was thinking of when he picked up and threw Rory 30 feet and his face pulverized the marble/cement. Not the kick. My bad.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

--------------------snip--------------------

Again, I SPECIFICALLY said not everybody is the same, and there could be a small... extremely small sector of the world who would receive a hand injury.. and show no pain.. no emotion.... nothing... but instead just fall over.. close your eyes... still no emotion... then stand up with s smirk. Find me some of these videos.

I love how you decided to move the goalposts and say find me somebody catching a bullet HAHAHAHAHHA. This discussion isn't about that specific scenario. What we are discussing is the likelihood of ones reaction to a injury and what that would therefore imply. It has nothing to do with the specific type of injury or how you got injured and EVERYTHING to do with your reaction to said injury.

You just admitted most people do show some sign of pain or express it, but not everybody is the same. Thanks Captain Obvious. The point, you're choosing to side with view that isn't common, in fact it's so uncommon, I doubt you'd even be able to find one video where somebody reacts like that getting their hand injured. That is the point. The preponderance of evidence points to people showing reaction... showing emotion... grabbing their hand in pain. HE DID NONE of those things. None. Yet somehow, the more likely theory in your opinion is that he was stunned and his hand hurt badly enough to be stunned... yet did nothing like most people would react. Somehow that is more likely that Ozy continuing his theatrics (something he's known for doing) and playing dead. A tried a tested maneuver to get people to drop their guard. Somehow that is less believable than your theory. I'm sorry, but that is totally illogical viewpoint to take with the facts.

Just so we're clear here... You do agree most people you've seen or encountered react as I describe and not how Ozy did correct? Further, please don't talk to me about sports and injuries as if you're some expert in the matter. I've broken my leg playing soccer.. Ankle playing basketball (State College).. fingers playing basketball or boxing... Never not once... was I hurt badly and I just fell down... didn't make a sound and closed my eyes. I've witnessed plenty of injuries and never, not once see somebody act as Ozy did. They ALL, every single one of them, has acted in one of the ways I described. Nice try.. I never said they scream like a baby.. but even your injuries, you didn't do what Ozy did. I 100% guarantee there was pain on your face... you were gripping your hurt extremity... you likely expressed verbally you were in pain. You know, normal reactions most people do. What you didn't do.. and what I've never seen anybody do... is act how Ozy did when they hurt their hand. Period.

The point of the RL shows is EVEN more proof to go along with my documented history in sports and just real life where you see people get hurt. Never, in ANY medium have I see somebody act that way. Yet I loved your theory of.. oh on those shows they pick people who show pain when they get hurt.. the other ones don't make the show... LMAO.. Cool, then you should have plenty of case evidence to support your theory right? Excellent, I look forward to seeing these reactions. You haven't either, yet here, you say oh yeah seems perfectly plausible for Ozy to act that way.. LOL wtf. that is exactly going against what is most logical and most common. To argue otherwise is, well, sorry to say, pretty dumb Nib and you're better than this.

Ummm. You don't care about the context? You mean the context which defines the very essence and reasoning of a person's logic. I guess you can now just look for whatever arrangement of words you want to see, create your own interpretation of it and then claim you made some sort of victory in your little manufactured argument? I don't think that's proper debating.

Excuse me? Just because I find it plausible, doesn't mean I find it likely or realistic. It is, however, the most likely thing (IMO) in a list of unlikely things that sprung to mind -to me- when -I- saw said scene. I am not saying that I know all the possibilities (feel free to come up with your own reason why he'd choose to catch a bullet). It was just the best thing that my mind came up with at the time. One thing about knowing something is unlikely/unrealistic, however, is that I don't try to argue it as a position in a debate because I know the absurdity of it. The difference between what you are doing and what I am doing right now.

And you seriously need to look up what hypocrisy means. What I am doing is the complete opposite of it. I'm actually telling you to not take my theory seriously as I KNOW it isn't something we need to take seriously.

And funny that you would use "moving the goalposts" when all I did was to flip YOUR logic (coming up with an absurd and extremely specific list of required evidence as the only evidence you would accept) back at you just to show you how silly it is. Heck, I even said "Silly, isn't it?". How'd you not get the intention of that remark? Are you being intentionally obtuse?

And seriously, ppl have accused you of "moving the goalposts" a lot. I think many times in this very thread. And yet you seem to be using it wrong when you're trying to pin that action on me. Ppl would actually call that projecting. But at this point, I'm not even sure you know what it means.

Um, no. My point is that ppl react differently and there are too many ways they could react to be certain about what is an "acceptable" reaction to specific stimuli. There is no "real world" instance of someone catching a bullet with their armored gloves, so any and all video showings you and I have of other ppl hurting their hand is irrelevant. None of them hurt their hand this way.

But what can't we dispute? He caught bullet. Bullet made him fall over. He fell down the steps.

I don't need to add any more evidence in my assertion. Because all the evidence is there. He did catch the bullet. He did fall over when he caught the bullet and he even grimaced hard as he did so, indicating either extreme effort or discomfort.

It's funny that you keep going "didn't fall down and close my eyes" as if it's relevant. Obviously the circumstances behind your (and my own) injury and Ozy's differ so you cannot expect the same things to happen.

The ONLY real potential reaction we need to establish/argue is that:

"can you hurt (as in feel pain)/injure your hand catching a bullet in an armored glove?"

Sure thing.

"can pain/injury stun a person?".

And the answer is easily yes.

The fall after getting stunned is likely caused by the force of the bullet he caught (although he also did try to spin to dissipate its energy).

"Can stunned ppl fall over when hit by something strong?" Answer, of course is yes.

The rest about him being on his back is pretty obvious. He's on his back because he fell.

All the above are facts we cannot dispute.

Then we move on to the speculatory positions. Why are his eyes closed? Well, that we don't know for sure. At this point, I believe he was biding his time as he needed to catch his breath after his catch and fall. Soon as he caught his breath, he stood up and disarmed his attacker. This is all speculation, however. Like your speculation, we cannot argue this point as we don't have a picture of what was in his mind at that time.

And yes, I agree, my eyes were closed, and I do agree that I was in pretty bad pain. Was I on my back? No, I was sitting down (I did have a friend who had to lie down after breaking his toe, right before we could take him to the hospital).

What's your point? I'm not Ozy. I just didn't catch a bullet. I just didn't fall down steps. I don't have his pain tolerance or endurance. I'm not fictional. Watchmen character suffer bad injuries that DO stun them (like the kick to the face Ror suffered) but manage to get back up no worse for wear a few scenes later. This is not uncommon in movies and fiction in general.

It's funny that you ask me to post said reactions when you've not even posted any yourself.

You like to say that ppl should go with what is logical, so go ahead and read the argument below and see what could POSSIBLY be non-logical there. By all means:

Ozy caught bullet with armored glove. Energy of bullet he caught hurt his hand and it stunned him. As he was stunned, force of bullet made him fall over. Falling over dropped him down steps. Falling down steps made him land on his back. He needed time to catch his breath. Once he did (and SS was in position), he sprung into action.

I can see a middle ground (in the interest of just moving this discussion forward) if you acknowledge that the force of the bullet DID stun him, did make him fall over and fall down steps. The fall DID make him roll on his back.

Then we can actually discuss the reasons why he stayed on his back as long as he did. I will admit, playing dead at that point is kinda feasible (tho I disagree with it, I will admit I cannot disprove it like you cannot disprove my assertion).

I would like to try and rescue this discussion from the course of flaming we've taken it and try to make it respectable again. If you commit to cut back with the flaming, I will also oblige. If you are unaware how you've been flaming. Msg me and I'll point out the parts of your posts that can be construed as flaming. I've already taken the steps to rewrite many choice statements from THIS reply for your benefit (although I will admit some slipped thru as it is getting late where I am and I am sleepy). I feel that maybe we can salvage this discussion and start being civil again?

Anyway, I have a flight in the morning. Feel free you leave your reply here and I will get back to it as soon as my flight lands and I get settled.

Nib,

First, let me say that I generally enjoy our discussion (even when we get a little snippy back and forth), and I find you a reasonable poster. We don't always agree, but I always appreciate the discussion. You're usually very thorough and bring up valid evidence, while also trying to find a middle ground. I can appreciate that.

Second, have a good trip and hopefully it's not business but pleasure.

Third, to continue the discussion... it's completely irrelevant how he was injured. The nature of the injury has zero relevance. Why, because we can find people who have sustained injuries from blunt trauma. He wasn't bleeding, and it didn't perceive him. He simply had to absorb the force of impact. We have plenty of examples of impact to the hand and how people react. What's more and further why we don't need the exact type of situation is because of where the logical line of progression goes to.

For example, when we see people get their hand smashed in a door... or hit by an object.. or trying to catch a baseball with their hand... hand being shot... hand stepped on... add an additional 100 other types of hand injuries...people generally always act in one or all of the manners I described. Think about it, people who sustain less impact or minor injuries show signs of pain... verbalize said pain... hold their hand in pain. Shit, people get a paper cut and grab their finger.. some say ouch... some put their finger in their mouth. We seen people just trying to catch a baseball, not one thrown hard, just a regular throw... The catch it wrong... they start shaking their hand.. holding their hand... saying ****KK.. Any number of things I've describe. They show it. So when you have a myriad of hand injuries, yet they all generally act in one way or another.. i.e. showing pain... Then the situation because irrelevant. The case evidence is what is relevant, not the specific situation. We generally know how people act when they get their hand hurt... and it's opposite of Ozy getting his hand hurt. It's really that simple.

Further, you admit you didn't act like Ozy did, neither did your friend. I've never in my life seen anyone act like Ozy did. Which is EXACTLY the point. I'll choose to side with how people normally react. When something is conclusively abnormal, then I'll look for explanations. Here, it's simple. Ozy is prone to theatrics and drama.... Which would easily and nicely explain him showing no pain.. nor verbalization... nor holding his hand... nothing. So when I see that, yet he's on the ground on his back with his eyes closed and rise with a smirk, it seems painfully obvious he was playing dead and using theatrics. It seems so painfully obvious I'm not sure how you can't see it. That's not meant as a slight. It's just odd to me, that doesn't make sense to you.

Just like it's odd to me your logical line of progression would be... I'll base my conclusion on what has the least case evidence. I've never, you've never, seen anybody act like that. You yourself admit you show emotion and express when hurt. Yet, you'll base your conclusion on a theory that is the least likely i.e. he was hurt, visibly stunned.. but yet somehow didn't act in anyway like his hand was hurt bad enough to be stunned. Have you ever seen someone suffer a hand injury and just say nothing and close their eyes to catch their breathe? Have you? I never have. He showed no sign of pain after being shot or after getting up. Nothing. Yet, that is somehow more plausible than

Ozy is known for theatrics, he pulled theatrics in the very seen by even trying to catch the bullet... he further pulled theatrics by closing his eyes as if he was dead and shot. In the very scene he was pulling theatrics... yet somehow it wasn't theatrics to carry on like the did and go tumbling down? Come on Nib.

I do agree that we both have theories on what happens. No argument there as neither of us can prove it one way or another. Agreed.

I also agree that he spun to dissipate the momentum of the bullet. Could the momentum carried him down the stairs as well? Hard to say, I'd lean more towards probably not. However, I don't have an issue saying it did either. My issue is with the notion that he was stunned i.e. he couldn't respond. I staunchly disagree with that notion. It could carry him 50 feet for all I care... My opinion isn't the fall or how or why... my contention is that is that in no way was he stunned enough that he couldn't respond. In other words, if he noticed the playing dead thing wasn't going to work... or felt the situation called for another action.. he would've sprung into action. I don't believe he was stunned enough that he had to lay there and catch his breathe. Don't buy it. He didn't act like that at all. He didn't act like he just sustained an injury that stunned and disoriented him. So while I can agree the force made him spin.. fall.. fly 20 feet or whatever you like.. I don't agree he was so stunned by it, that he would be unable to react if the situation called for it. You seem to think he was stunned to the point he couldn't. Hence the disagreement. If that isn't your stance than I guess part of the discussion is all for not lol

Anyways man, have a good flight

Kt kissing ass after he's been logically raped and mocked.

Oz stomps.

Originally posted by carver9
Oz stomps.

He really doesn't.

Originally posted by carver9
He really doesn't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He really does. Do the carve thing and flee.

Flee from what?

Things that has given Cap a fight, Ozymandias would destroy. Cap is above Bucky. This isn't a fair fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Flee from what?

Things that has given Cap a fight, Ozymandias would destroy. Cap is above Bucky. This isn't a fair fight.

Seeing as Cap >>> Ozy, I find that hard to believe.

Originally posted by carver9
Flee from what?

Things that has given Cap a fight, Ozymandias would destroy. Cap is above Bucky. This isn't a fair fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Oz stomps.

You're late to the party friend.
It has already been proven (again & again) without a reasonable doubt with movie feats that Bucky wins.

Buckys stats > Ozys stats. save for maybe jumping? barker

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, Ozy wouldn't he's overrated from a pansy universe. Bucky is a peer to Cap. Didn't you watch the film because he clearly went toe to toe with him multiple times and even stabbed and shot him. There's also context to their final fight you're ignoring.

I think my point went completely over you. I know Bucky and Cap are peers but since I think Oz can beat Cap as well, you really have not proven anything.

Originally posted by carver9
I think my point went completely over you. I know Bucky and Cap are peers but since I think Oz can beat Cap as well, you really have not proven anything.

Originally posted by carver9
I know Bucky and Cap are peers but since I think Oz can beat Cap as well, you really have not proven anything.

Originally posted by carver9
I think my point went completely over you. I know Bucky and Cap are peers but since I think Oz can beat Cap as well, you really have not proven anything.

So you haven't seen any of the movies with Cap?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on what ? Make a case. Your opinion isn't supported so by all means the floor is yours. Wow me. But do not I repeat do not disappoint me.

I already told you, things that has given Cap trouble would be like an insect to Ozy.

Originally posted by Silent Master
So you haven't seen any of the movies with Cap?

😂 😂 😂