Originally posted by KingD19
So Ozy who is weaker and less durable than Cap would be able to rip the magnetic lock off the wall and fight with one hand while being cattle prodded the entire time?Nah.
First, he wasn't be cattle prodded the entire time... Second the magnetic cuff wasn't really the reason he was hit. He went one v one with the last dude in the elevator and got struck 2 times... one of which was the dude easily blocking Cap punch and counter with a strike of his own.... no cuffs
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiOzy can't do what Cap can do. Let's face it you won't battlezone this so you're all talk.
First, he wasn't be cattle prodded the entire time... Second the magnetic cuff wasn't really the reason he was hit. He went one v one with the last dude in the elevator and got struck 2 times... one of which was the dude easily blocking Cap punch and counter with a strike of his own.... no cuffs
Originally posted by carver9
The elevator scene is an example.
Everyone that's seen the flick knows you're referring to instances like Cap facing off against Rumlow when you say "elevator scene", but when you're arguing with someone who has not actually watched the film as you are now, you're going to have to hold that person's hand and slowly explain in detail; likely more than once.
edit: It also helps if you use pictures with these people
eg:
I went to the GDS forum, and I have to say, it was painful watching Quan and a few others trying to talk politics. It was actually painful. Most of the time when he posts, I go damn, what a idiotic clownshoes. This time, I just simply felt sorry for him. God damn the GDF must be painful to participate in.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
[B]----- SNIP-------------[B]
Had to cut your entire reply out man, my reply is a bit long. 😛
1) Thanks, man. Yeah, spending time with family during the holy week. 🙂
Yeah, while I love to debate. I feel like arguments that go nowhere aren't very productive. We learn more by discussing things with a back and forth of ideas than simply shutting ourselves out and just continuously yell at walls. Appreciate the return to civility. Debating is SO MUCH more fun and informative this way.
I have to disagree here, man. Although I don't recall what part of my previous reply you are directly addressing with this paragraph, I will have to downright disagree with the entire statement. The nature of the injury has a lot to do with how one reacts to the injury. And especially how the injury was acquired. That is very very important. And very relevant to what we are discussing right now.
2) It looks like the primary point of contention is the matter of him being stunned by the bullet catch. And I think I know how to bridge the gap and explain my logic the best way possible:
There are really 2 stages that occurred back-to-back when Ozy caught the bullet:
1) The energy of the bullet injuring his hand and inflicting sufficient pain/injury to stun him momentarily.
2) The remaining energy of said bullet carrying over beyond injuring the hand but also forces him to fall over (even with him dispersing some of the energy via spinning) and fall down the steps.
Except for very special cases, most injuries would have these stages:
1) Exposure to forces that cause injury. And the forces it applies to the body (ex. bad punch hitting top of the head of sparring partner while badly taping hands during a sparring match gone wrong)
2) Sudden weakness/pain/shock upon getting the injury itself. (ex. breaking fingers and wrist and the surge of pain and shock that quickly follows).
3) Long term reaction to the pain of said injury essentially, the screaming, weakness, grasping hand, asking for help, etc. that you mentioned prior (which you would find in all the videos you mentioned). Which only happens if the injury is bad enough or hurts us enough.
Stage 3 is where most of the videos/documentaries would have them screaming/crying/rolling in pain/etc. Ozy's case only really lasts til stage 2 with the remaining energy of the bullet forcing him to topple over and fall. Easiest way to approximate is to ask this question: during the sudden pain and shock of being injured, if there is still a lot more energy left over from whatever caused you said injury or had someone pushed me over, would I have fallen over? The answer would be yes.
If you think about it that way, me, you, my friend and everyone else DID react similar to Ozy within the first moments of their injuries. Pain, shock, sudden weakness due to the pain, getting stunned/shocked initially, etc.
Ozy's case shows us him suffering the first 2 stages and then him recovering or at least bearing thru it and no longer experiencing/expressing stage 3 which would explain why he didn't act like how you feel he should act like as he never reached that point. This is not uncommon, however. With sufficient adrenaline, sufficient pain tolerance or if the injury wasn't bad enough, many ppl can just suffer thru it or ignore it altogether. I remember a time where I twisted my ankle (minor sprain) during an important game. Had my ankle taped and fought right thru and kept on playing. I had so much adrenaline going I didn't even feel it well after the game. All Ozy really needed was sufficient pain tolerance to shake off the injury to his hand, it didn't really look like it mangled his hand after all. Broken bone or two doesn't look like it would bother him one bit IMO.
Essentially, you're looking for a reaction from Ozy that illustrates stage 3. He never makes it that far.
The above should perfectly explain where the differences in contention currently is and should put the whole matter to rest.
3) My problem with the whole "playing possum/dead" thing is this: Why? Why even bother? And why even take such a risk?
We know it was stupid of him to catch the bullet. But if he WAS armored, maybe it wasn't really that much of a deadly threat to him. And, looking at the video of him catching the bullet. It does seem to look like he DID dodge the bullet when he turned his body and raised his right arm to catch it. So failure wouldn't have been fatal at all even had he not succeeded.
This makes sense in every level. The bullet catch was a stupid risk, but it wasn't a fatal one. He still would have dodged the bullet. And whatever injury he would have incurred would have been a minor one (due to his body armor).
But laying down on his back? With his head exposed and his eyes closed? Does it make any sense at all to take that much of a chance?
He was able to dodge+catch based on looking at the barrel and (most likely) visually observing SS's facial twitches to get the timing just perfect. I doubt, however, that he could dodge a head shot (or several) with his back flat on the ground and his eyes closed had it come to that. Or even that he'd want to find out if he could.
Not when he could have just as easily keep standing by maintaining his balance or spring back up or simply land on his feet (had he not been stunned at all by the catch), charge her, evade her shots (he already has "feats" of avoiding multiple shots from an assassin after all, so this is very possible) and disarm her before she hits him.
There was no reason for him to act that way at all, little need for him to play possum/dead, it was a HUGE tactical disadvantage which would have been lethal had it went another way. Doing so, would have made him a fool, he's not a fool. And if Watchmen taught us anything, he's no fool. He was forced into that situation. Him playing "theatrics" doesn't cut it for me.
He fell because the impact of the catch stunned him. The remaining energy made him fall over. He was still stunned as he fell down the steps*. He needed a moment to catch his breath as soon as he landed on the ground. But the second he did, he showed the bullet to his opponents to shock/confuse them (here is where he used his "theatrics" to good effect), buying him time to suddenly spring back up and disarm his shooter.
(*-no, the bullet would not have the energy left over to keep a 150-170 lbs armored man spinning if he was in any way resisting it.... .38s round aren't powerful enough to do that. There would still be energy left, sure, but it would be mostly gravity making him tumble down at that point).
Playing dead was unnecessary. It made no tactical sense. It was a huge risk that could easily turn lethal. He HAD to have been forced into that predicament. His pain was sudden, his reaction to it short but telling. It put him in a bad spot, but he got lucky when SS actually came closer (or maybe he hoped to at least draw her in) and didn't fire finishing head shots while still a good distance atop the steps (perfect vantage point to shoot someone flat on his back) and he was just able to take advantage of her foolishness.
Anyway, have a good weekend, man.
Originally posted by Robtard
I took it that he played dead to put Laurie's guard down, as you said, his head isn't protected, she still had a gun and now there's three combatants.Or maybe he's just a drama-queen with a love for theatrics.
Certainly possible. Would explain how long he stayed down. But not why he even allowed himself to go down in the first place. It would make better sense to not allow himself to fall down the steps at all (by springing back up) and stay there and simply disarmed her, he certainly had the ability to do so.
Primary point of contention is the actual stun that happened as he caught the bullet and the roll following it.
I contend that he was stunned from catch to fall to roll down the steps and a few short seconds when he hit the ground. I, however, could certainly accept that he just stayed down to put her off her guard and draw her in.
I don't really see how a bullet to the hand, especially one that stopped at the glove as I don't recall seeing blood (like in the novel) would stun him, when later on we see him take unrestricted punches to the face from a guy who can casually cause compound fractures and only suffer some bruising while staying fully coherent. Why I choose to go with tactical theatrics, if you will.
Originally posted by Robtard
I don't really see how a bullet to the hand, especially one that stopped at the glove as I don't recall seeing blood (like in the novel) would stun him, when later on we see him take unrestricted punches to the face from a guy who can casually cause compound fractures and only suffer some bruising while staying fully coherent. Why I choose to go with tactical theatrics, if you will.
It's in my posts above. Essentially, sudden pain from the impact. It pretty much showed on his face. It's all in my multiple posts above. 😛
Lots of fighters perform with broken limbs, specially in MMA. I think I recall a fighter winning with a kick even tho he messed up his toes. Ozy would be a step higher than these in pain tolerance IMO. But the sudden force and pain likely stunned him but he just easily shook it off.
The alternative is him doing a really dumb, possibly suicidal roll of the dice that I just can't buy.
Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
from what i saw he was being theatrical... from what we know he could have easily avoided the bullet all together considering he bothered to catch the thing... his suit is also capable of protecting even his weakest body parts such as his hand. no reason he couldnt have taken the shot to the chest or moved out the way and go on to beat her ass other than movie theatrics
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Yup! Finally something I can agree with.I strongly agree about theatrics (tho comic theatrics would be a more accurate term as they simply copied the scene from comics). From a storytelling perspective, he likely did it to test himself and it seemed like he wasn't even sure it would work. The result was surprising (to him and his opponents) and it stretched his abilities and equipment to their limits.
Hell, he could have just ducked, covered the distance and disarmed her easily. He is certainly fast enough and she certainly waited long enough to pull the trigger. Heck, he did something similar to Comedian and he had to cover a further distance.
Originally posted by Robtard
I took it that he played dead to put Laurie's guard down, as you said, his head isn't protected, she still had a gun and now there's three combatants.Or maybe he's just a drama-queen with a love for theatrics.
3 votes for theatrics lol
So it's settled, Adrian loves drama and the theater
Now we should move onto the elevator scene with Cap. Some people said Ozy would have shitstomped those guys, I disagree, he might be able to pull through as did Cap, but there's a chance he could be overpowered considering the confines of the space and being surrounded from the start.
But one-on-one against Rumlow, I don't think Rumlow would land a single hit on Ozy, like he did Cap.