Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Started by KuRuPT Thanosi150 pages

Nib,

Problem is, as I've illustrated you're trying to have it both ways, and it's impossible to have it both ways. Think about the situation you illustrated in your post above.

Boxer throws a punch, lands on foes head improperly... You tweak your wrist. On one hand you say, well if your adrenaline is going, you may not express pain the way one normally would and just "tank through it". Okay, but for Ozy for fall over and be "stunned" as you call it.. that by default means his adrenaline wasn't pumping to that degree. So where you're trying to have the same sequence both ways?

On one hand you're trying to say his adrenaline was going so hard that is likely why he expressed no pain. But in the same sequence you go, well he was stunned enough that he need to say down for a moment and catch his breath. When you exhibit this adrenaline rush you're referencing ( I've experienced this in boxing and basketball you don't stay down.. close your eyes and catch your breathe. You continue to play and "fight" through it as you state. Then later you're like OH shit. Yet here, he didn't just fight through it did he.. yet your explanation for him not expressing pain is that his adrenaline was pumping so hard. See where I'm going with this?

To go further, even in the adrenaline situation... there is still pain... when I twisted my ankle and kept playing in the game (happened numerous times)... I didn't just hurt my ankle and not even make a sound or expression. I clearly indicated I was hurt... grabbed my ankle... sometimes said something... tied my shoes laces tighter.... and hobbled around a little bit till I could loosen it up and get the blood flowing again. Even then, I guarantee in your basketball situation... you should visible signs of being hurt directly after it happened.. and it even continued through the game no doubt. Which is the point here. Ozy expressed no such emotion like that.

My problem here is the double standards you're trying to use to justify your theory. Again, on one hand it made sense for him to take that chance, and in another it made no sense so you're dismissing it that premise. When in fact, the one you're dismissing much VASTLY more sense than the other. Think about it these...

Risk assessment

Preface - You freely admit he could've disarmed her before she could fire considering his other movement and speed feats

1. Stand right in front of an skilled armed foe. Decide to catch a bullet that is meant to kill you. I don't buy the dodge thing. Why catch it then if you can dodge it. Why catch something that according to you would stun you? You wouldn't. He had to catch it because she shot was meant to kill him. Just like in the book. It just moved so fast it looks like he dodged it to. Anyways, that is the unneeded risk he took

or

2. Act like you just got fatally shot... fall down... not make a sound... and have your eyes closed... while somebody still has a gun.

One is exponentially more of a risk than the other. One you're purposely exposing yourself to getting shot in the hopes you're fast enough to catch a bullet. The other, you might not get shot at all using a tried a tested deception tactic commonly used all the time. So no, I buy no assertion that no. 1 was less of a risk assessment than no. 2 That is totally illogical and implausible imo.

What's worse though... how can one, seemingly a bigger risk, be okay to do and plausible, yet another, you go nope I don't buy it. If you believe Ozy is prone to taking risk and chances.. well then Ozy is prone to taking risk and chances. How can you, with a scene lasting all of 25 seconds.. go well here in the first 10 seconds I can totally believe him taking a bigger risk.. but the final 15 seconds, nah, no way I don't see him taking that risk?? That just makes no sense to me.

To further prove one is a bigger risk. Ozy has intimate knowledge of SS and her psyche. He's the smartest guy on the planet. This means, not only is he using a tried and tested theory to deceive your foe... he would even further have an idea it would work just knowing Ozy. It's his job to know.

Real quick, the reason why the nature of the issue isn't important. Is because we see 100 different hand injuries and they generally always act in a manner I described. Holding their hand.. shaking their hand... showing pain on their face.. verbalizing said pain... grabbing their arm because their hand hurts to much to touch... all these and others are typical reactions we routinely see. I never seen anyone, receive any type of trauma to their hand... and act like Ozy did. It's simply not typical. Which was the point of the paragraph. I don't choose to side with maybe he's the exception to everyone. That isn't the most sound logical deduction to make.. so I choose to go with what is more likely i.e.

he wasn't really hurt that bad at all or stunned enough that he couldn't react. He simply wanted to play dead to gain the advantage again. Which is exactly what he did. I'm not sure if you answered this.... you mentioned where he disagree... i.e. him being stunned. So you're saying... he was so stunned that if they tried to punch kick him when he fell down that he would've been unable to react? I guess I'm looking for how "stunned" you believe him to be

Originally posted by Robtard
So it's settled, Adrian loves drama and the theater

Now we should move onto the elevator scene with Cap. Some people said Ozy would have shitstomped those guys, I disagree, he might be able to pull through as did Cap, but there's a chance he could be overpowered considering the confines of the space and being surrounded from the start.

But one-on-one against Rumlow, I don't think Rumlow would land a single hit on Ozy, like he did Cap.

Elite/named SHIELD agents certainly are pretty capable (even vs super-powered beings) and most of HYDRA in those scenes were SHIELD, and Rumlow is about the most elite they had. Although, I'm willing to bet BW would beat his ass.

I think I recall Bobby lasting pretty long against the Kree soldier that took out Sif.

Originally posted by Robtard
I don't really see how a bullet to the hand, especially one that stopped at the glove as I don't recall seeing blood (like in the novel) would stun him, when later on we see him take unrestricted punches to the face from a guy who can casually cause compound fractures and only suffer some bruising while staying fully coherent. Why I choose to go with tactical theatrics, if you will.

Pretty much how I feel. Not sure how that bullet would stun him enough to keep him down for any period of time to "catch his breathe" the scene screamed out to me drama... theatrics... playing dead immediately. 😖hrug:

Don't have as much time or energy here where I am right now as I normally do, KT. Wife's out hiking for a few days so I got 100% baby duty til she gets back. Can possibly do one long reply per evening til I get back. 😛 Will get you that reply 2mrow. Hope that's ok.

Originally posted by Robtard
So it's settled, Adrian loves drama and the theater

Now we should move onto the elevator scene with Cap. Some people said Ozy would have shitstomped those guys, I disagree, he might be able to pull through as did Cap, but there's a chance he could be overpowered considering the confines of the space and being surrounded from the start.

But one-on-one against Rumlow, I don't think Rumlow would land a single hit on Ozy, like he did Cap.

i think cap just inconsistent AF lol
rumlow was blocking caps punches like they were nothing
batroc kicks were sending cap flying backwards one to the chin even made cap spin.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
i think cap just inconsistent AF lol
rumlow was blocking caps punches like they were nothing
batroc kicks were sending cap flying backwards one to the chin even made cap spin.

Humans in the MCU just behave at a different level, I think. SHIELD agents (and their opponents) specifically.

We get characters like Bobbi (normal human, SHIELD agent) going 1-on-1 vs a Kree that took down Sif and we have May (another SHIELD agent) being known for taking out supers H2H. I recall her killing a superhuman-strong opponent which earned her her nickname.

Edit. Apparently, it is spelled Bobbi. Fixed spelling.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Don't have as much time or energy here where I am right now as I normally do, KT. Wife's out hiking for a few days so I got 100% baby duty til she gets back. Can possibly do one long reply per evening til I get back. 😛 Will get you that reply 2mrow. Hope that's ok.

No worries, you're on vacation... which doesn't include "working" on here lol.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No worries, you're on vacation... which doesn't include "working" on here lol.

Well, I really don't find this place "work", tbh. 😛

If I don't argue with someone, I think I go insane at home. Debating is like a compulsion for me. Not a good thing at work sa I usually end up rubbing ppl the wrong way. So I end up picking debates with my wife and that shit lands me in the doghouse these days (she used to love debating when we were dating, but I think the amount of debate I need in one day is just too much for her now that we're married and she has to deal with it on a daily basis lol).

KMC saves my marriage, no lie! 😄

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Humans in the MCU just behave at a different level, I think. SHIELD agents (and their opponents) specifically.

We get characters like Bobbi (normal human, SHIELD agent) going 1-on-1 vs a Kree that took down Sif and we have May (another SHIELD agent) being known for taking out supers H2H. I recall her killing a superhuman-strong opponent which earned her her nickname.

Edit. Apparently, it is spelled Bobb[b]i. Fixed spelling. [/B]

god i hate that shitty show is canon. i dont know much about it admittedly i couldnt take anymore by the end of season 2

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
god i hate that shitty show is canon. i dont know much about it admittedly i couldnt take anymore by the end of season 2

I have to admit, hated S1. But S2 picked up at exactly the end of S2 lol. IMO anyway. Stuck by it and I certainly like it better than Supergirl or Flash as characters aren't made to act TOO stupid there to further the plot. Wasn't able to follow Arrow, tho. Series started at the apex of my MMO days and by the time I started watching TV/Anime again, it was way too late to start over for me (I do watch parts of the show but not in order, just when the opportunity arises).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I went to the GDS forum, and I have to say, it was painful watching Quan and a few others trying to talk politics. It was actually painful. Most of the time when he posts, I go damn, what a idiotic clownshoes. This time, I just simply felt sorry for him. God damn the GDF must be painful to participate in.
This coming from one of the most idiotic and retarded human beings ever to grace the forum I'd say go into a corner. You're a complete dunce. You also don't ever support anything you've ever claimed with evidence.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I have to admit, hated S1. But S2 picked up at exactly the end of S2 lol. IMO anyway. Stuck by it and I certainly like it better than Supergirl or Flash as characters aren't made to act TOO stupid there to further the plot. Wasn't able to follow Arrow, tho. Series started at the apex of my MMO days and by the time I started watching TV/Anime again, it was way too late to start over for me (I do watch parts of the show but not in order, just when the opportunity arises).

I've watched it consistently since ep1s1, it definitely has its ups and downs still.

Originally posted by Robtard
I've watched it consistently since ep1s1, it definitely has its ups and downs still.

Yeah but not like Arrow. I still prefer it over most superhero TV shows not named Daredevil. It's action is at least quite a lot better than the DC shows.

Never tried arrow, the previews were enough to put me off. Flash I watched the first ep only.

DC animated films are were it's at; several gems in there

Have been wanting to start watching Arrow, Flash but I just cant get over how it just looks like any other CW teen drama with some super hero stuff thrown in.

We can now say Ozy does win after this last movie 🙂

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We can now say Ozy does win after this last movie 🙂

No you can't. Because it doesn't change the fact that Ozy has never fought the kind of opponemts Bucky has.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We can now say Ozy does win after this last movie 🙂
Bucky beats the shit out of Ozy. This film cements that position. Ozy gets wrecked.

Originally posted by FrothByte
No you can't. Because it doesn't change the fact that Ozy has never fought the kind of opponemts Bucky has.

Incorrect. The basis for saying Bucky wins vs. Ozy was that he was Cap level and that good. Well, he's not that good. Cap is on a whole other level than him. Cap beaten Bucky 2 times for sure, and really 3. Black Panther got the better of Bucky is all their fights, with or without the suit really. Cap again, did much better against BP. An inexperienced Spiderman, again, completely owned WS with the utmost ease. Cap does much better like usual. Same with IM, and their fight, where Cap does considerably better again. No, they aren't the same level. Bucky is clearly below Cap.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Incorrect. The basis for saying Bucky wins vs. Ozy was that he was Cap level and that good. Well, he's not that good. Cap is on a whole other level than him. Cap beaten Bucky 2 times for sure, and really 3. Black Panther got the better of Bucky is all their fights, with or without the suit really. Cap again, did much better against BP. An inexperienced Spiderman, again, completely owned WS with the utmost ease. Cap does much better like usual. Same with IM, and their fight, where Cap does considerably better again. No, they aren't the same level. Bucky is clearly below Cap.
I do not think you saw the film. You're an idiot.