Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Incorrect. The basis for saying Bucky wins vs. Ozy was that he was Cap level and that good. Well, he's not that good. Cap is on a whole other level than him. Cap beaten Bucky 2 times for sure, and really 3. Black Panther got the better of Bucky is all their fights, with or without the suit really. Cap again, did much better against BP. An inexperienced Spiderman, again, completely owned WS with the utmost ease. Cap does much better like usual. Same with IM, and their fight, where Cap does considerably better again. No, they aren't the same level. Bucky is clearly below Cap.

I remember Cap beating Bucky once and it was a close fight. Physically, their stats should be close since neither was overpowering the other or blitzing the other. Cap was armed with his shield when he fought BP. I don't think you realize how devastating a weapon that shield is. Bucky was unarmed when he fought BP.

Cap does better against IM because 1.) IM wasn't trying to fight him at all at first and 2.) Because again, Cap has his shield whereas Bucky is unarmed

The Spiderman fight is the most telling. Cap defeated Spidey through skill and experience. So we can say Cap is more skilled than Bucky. Physically they still should be within the same stats.

And now tell me again who has Ozy fought who was near BP or Spidey stats again?

Originally posted by FrothByte
I remember Cap beating Bucky once and it was a close fight. Physically, their stats should be close since neither was overpowering the other or blitzing the other. Cap was armed with his shield when he fought BP. I don't think you realize how devastating a weapon that shield is. Bucky was unarmed when he fought BP.

Cap does better against IM because 1.) IM wasn't trying to fight him at all at first and 2.) Because again, Cap has his shield whereas Bucky is unarmed

The Spiderman fight is the most telling. Cap defeated Spidey through skill and experience. So we can say Cap is more skilled than Bucky. Physically they still should be within the same stats.

And now tell me again who has Ozy fought who was near BP or Spidey stats again?

Tell me who Bucky's actually beaten? All the best people he's fought he's lost to, and most times convincingly so. He has zero notable wins on his ledger that are even worth anything. He didn't even defeat BW when he had a gun and she didn't. Ozy would destroy her with ease. The simple fact is, it was fallacious reasoning that people were giving WS the win over Ozy saying he's Cap level. He's not. This has been unquestionably proven. Thus that whole reasoning is out the door is the point. Ozy was never touched by the best people he fought. Not even a blow landed on him. He's faster than Bucky, more skilled and comparable strength wise and striking power wise.

You keep saying Cap has his shield and neglect to mention that Bucky has his arm. A bionic arm mind you. Something Cap doesn't have. You neglect to mention this fact, and yet WS was still easily beaten on multiple occasions.

WS >> Ozy.

Deal with it.

So Kt believes Bucky needs to have only one arm and forget all the times he's been armed with knives and high powered weaponry.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Tell me who Bucky's actually beaten? All the best people he's fought he's lost to, and most times convincingly so. He has zero notable wins on his ledger that are even worth anything. He didn't even defeat BW when he had a gun and she didn't. Ozy would destroy her with ease. The simple fact is, it was fallacious reasoning that people were giving WS the win over Ozy saying he's Cap level. He's not. This has been unquestionably proven. Thus that whole reasoning is out the door is the point. Ozy was never touched by the best people he fought. Not even a blow landed on him. He's faster than Bucky, more skilled and comparable strength wise and striking power wise.

You keep saying Cap has his shield and neglect to mention that Bucky has his arm. A bionic arm mind you. Something Cap doesn't have. You neglect to mention this fact, and yet WS was still easily beaten on multiple occasions.

I don't neglect Bucky's arm. I just think that Bucky with his arm is equal to an unarmed Captain America - as proven in their h2h fight. Cap w/ shield > Bucky with arm. Bucky usually has a weapon (knife/gun/rifle) to contend with Cap w/ shield.

WS beat BW, Agent 13 and Falcon. And unlike NO and Rosch, the fodder that BW and Falcon routinely beat up are more than just prisoners or thugs on the street.

WS got the better of T'Challa on their first encounter where T'Challa was not in his suit.

Let's face it KT, Ozy just doesn't have the the feats at this point. I will say that after this latest movie, I believe Ozy is probably more skilled than Bucky, but not by much. Not enough to overcome Bucky's superior strength and speed anyway. Bucky was afterall outrunning cars in the highway.

Why do most discount multiple heroes all pursuing WS after Zemo enacted the mind control Hydra commands ? Dude is a beast and is a Cap peer. WS should be armed if Cap gets his shield since both routinely use those weapons. WS can contend with Cap and his shield without any weapons as well. WS is a beast and anyone who disagrees feel free to come at me.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't neglect Bucky's arm. I just think that Bucky with his arm is equal to an unarmed Captain America - as proven in their h2h fight. Cap w/ shield > Bucky with arm. Bucky usually has a weapon (knife/gun/rifle) to contend with Cap w/ shield.

WS beat BW, Agent 13 and Falcon. And unlike NO and Rosch, the fodder that BW and Falcon routinely beat up are more than just prisoners or thugs on the street.

WS got the better of T'Challa on their first encounter where T'Challa was not in his suit.

Let's face it KT, Ozy just doesn't have the the feats at this point. I will say that after this latest movie, I believe Ozy is probably more skilled than Bucky, but not by much. Not enough to overcome Bucky's superior strength and speed anyway. Bucky was afterall outrunning cars in the highway.

Wait which fight did Bucky get the better of BP? During the car chase scene when BP went after WS to kill him for bombing his dad? WS didn't win that fight. Cap had to save him.

He also didn't beat BW, she got the jump on him, momentarily disarmed him and then got thrown off and ran. The she got shot. That isn't defeating her. He had a damn automatic rifle and she had no weapon. Yeah, I hope he'd do something with that advantage.

He's not on the same level as Cap without his shield though. What makes you say this? Cap has beaten him every single time... with or without the shield. Not sure why you think the shield is the reason he wins, it's not.

Bucky is also not faster than Ozy. We've gone over this before, and he's not faster. Ozy has the speed advantage in this fight. He can clearly move his arm fast enough to block a punch from Bucky, and multiple ones at that. Bucky has proven to run faster than Ozy, but we've never seen Ozy ran though. Absence of proof isn't proof. We know Ozy can jump higher than Bucky, so who knows about running. Not sure what good running does anyways. Unless it's to try and get away from IM kicking the crap out of you.

Look I like Bucky, I like his Character actually, but he's simply not better than Ozy and wouldn't beat him in a h2h fight.

Bucky clearly wins even more so now.

Bucky beat Cap when he was brainwashed by Zemo. When he threw him down that elevator he punched a hole into.
Black Widow was about to get killed. Chocked to death by WS.
Bucky has even more strength feats that shit on Ozy. Picking up a motorcycle with one arm, jumping off a multi story building with no harm, almost ripping the arc reactor off of Ironmans chest, blocking point blank gunfire with his arm from high powered rifles, Bucky punches his way out of that prison he was in along with breaking the shackles.

Bucky beat BP suit-less. Bucky was trying to escape from the building when BP kicked him off. Kicking him off while WS is trying to escape ISNT a win for BP.

If WS fought Crossbones henchmen then Bucky would have not got touched either. Nite Owl and Rosch beat up thugs so they are compared to highly skilled henchmen/soldiers. Thats the cap on their ceiling from screen feats.
Ozy is not more skilled. He certainly didn't look that way in the movie. Even if I give Ozy credit and say they are equals , Ozy still loses based on every other stat being superior for Bucky.

Ozy isnt faster or even if he is isnt a great deal faster as to give him an edge.
Remember if you want to use the bullet time feat then you have to use what happens after. Ozy blocky 1 punch as super speed then is on the floor. No way around this. Its the way it goes down in the movie. He never moves as fast as this and then him not be on the floor recovering.
Ozys fight in a slow methodical manner.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wait which fight did Bucky get the better of BP? During the car chase scene when BP went after WS to kill him for bombing his dad? WS didn't win that fight. Cap had to save him.

He also didn't beat BW, she got the jump on him, momentarily disarmed him and then got thrown off and ran. The she got shot. That isn't defeating her. He had a damn automatic rifle and she had no weapon. Yeah, I hope he'd do something with that advantage.

He's not on the same level as Cap without his shield though. What makes you say this? Cap has beaten him every single time... with or without the shield. Not sure why you think the shield is the reason he wins, it's not.

Bucky is also not faster than Ozy. We've gone over this before, and he's not faster. Ozy has the speed advantage in this fight. He can clearly move his arm fast enough to block a punch from Bucky, and multiple ones at that. Bucky has proven to run faster than Ozy, but we've never seen Ozy ran though. Absence of proof isn't proof. We know Ozy can jump higher than Bucky, so who knows about running. Not sure what good running does anyways. Unless it's to try and get away from IM kicking the crap out of you.

Look I like Bucky, I like his Character actually, but he's simply not better than Ozy and wouldn't beat him in a h2h fight.

Agent 13 and BW tried to take down WS together. Agent 13 got knocked out and BW was getting strangled to death. She was completely helpless. You don't consider that a defeat for BW???

The only reason BW wasn't killed was because BP interrupted the fight - and this is where Bucky got the better of him. Knocked him down then WS walked away. BP caught up and pretty much evened out the score.

But as for every other time BP fought and had the advantage over Bucky, BP has always been in his vibranium suit and claws whereas Bucky was completely unarmed. Unlike Cap who had his shield when facing T'Challa.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Agent 13 and BW tried to take down WS together. Agent 13 got knocked out and BW was getting strangled to death. She was completely helpless. You don't consider that a defeat for BW???

The only reason BW wasn't killed was because BP interrupted the fight - and this is where Bucky got the better of him. Knocked him down then WS walked away. BP caught up and pretty much evened out the score.

But as for every other time BP fought and had the advantage over Bucky, BP has always been in his vibranium suit and claws whereas Bucky was completely unarmed. Unlike Cap who had his shield when facing T'Challa.

Okay, and what about those scenes make you believe WS beats Ozy? Do you actually think BW would do anything to Ozy? She wouldn't even land a blow on him. I mean honestly, she likely wouldn't. Agent 13, umm yeah. The reality is this, Bucky has mostly lost his encounters, and there is simply no way around that. Doesn't mean they are low showings mind you, but he's still lost most of them. That isn't the best track record. Especially when you're going against a guy who's more skilled, faster reactions, faster arm speed, better at countering, jumps higher.. and likely close to as strong with as much striking power. I'm honestly trying to think of the advantage Bucky holds over Ozy... they aren't much Froth if we're being honest here.

If it wasn't evident that WS beats Ozy before, after CA:WS it should be.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Bucky clearly wins even more so now.

Bucky beat Cap when he was brainwashed by Zemo. When he threw him down that elevator he punched a hole into.
Black Widow was about to get killed. Chocked to death by WS.
Bucky has even more strength feats that shit on Ozy. Picking up a motorcycle with one arm, jumping off a multi story building with no harm, almost ripping the arc reactor off of Ironmans chest, blocking point blank gunfire with his arm from high powered rifles, Bucky punches his way out of that prison he was in along with breaking the shackles.

Bucky beat BP suit-less. Bucky was trying to escape from the building when BP kicked him off. Kicking him off while WS is trying to escape ISNT a win for BP.

If WS fought Crossbones henchmen then Bucky would have not got touched either. Nite Owl and Rosch beat up thugs so they are compared to highly skilled henchmen/soldiers. Thats the cap on their ceiling from screen feats.
Ozy is not more skilled. He certainly didn't look that way in the movie. Even if I give Ozy credit and say they are equals , Ozy still loses based on every other stat being superior for Bucky.

Ozy isnt faster or even if he is isnt a great deal faster as to give him an edge.
Remember if you want to use the bullet time feat then you have to use what happens after. Ozy blocky 1 punch as super speed then is on the floor. No way around this. Its the way it goes down in the movie. He never moves as fast as this and then him not be on the floor recovering.
Ozys fight in a slow methodical manner.

You mean the theory that multiple laughed at you and somebody else who brought that up? That theory? Yeah I wouldn't being that up again. Multiple people who even think Bucky could win, flat out said Ozy was putting on a show there. He was clearly trying to get them to drop their guard, and guess what, they did. To even think that shot temp KO'd Ozy is laughable and you know it.

Not true, Bucky WAS trying to escape and then he was confronted by BP. He then ACTIVELY tried to fight BP and was easily cut off the ledge. He didn't just jump off it.. he tried to fight him and was kicked like a soccer ball for his troubles. BP got the better of WS in virtually every single one of their encounters. Every one. The point is, people tried to claim the reason Bucky beats Ozy is because Bucky is Cap level, but this movie proves beyond any doubt he's not that level.

1. Cap defeats Bucky on multiple occasions. With or without his shield

2. BP gets the better of WS multiple times, Cap does much better against BP

3. IM gets the better of WS and easily. Cap, again, does much better

4. Spiderman CASUALLY owns WS with the greatest of ease. Cap does much better than him.. yet again.

Point is, he's not Cap level, Cap is a level above him.

Ozy holds most advantages in this fight and there is no way around that fact. None. Skills = Ozy, Speed = Ozy, Reactions = Ozy, Countering = Ozy. Strength is comparable with maybe a slight advantage to WS. Striking power = Comparable, Jumping = Ozy. These are the main factors in a h2h fight and Ozy is his superior in more areas.

Originally posted by Robtard
If it wasn't evident that WS beats Ozy before, after CA:WS it should be.

huh? WS does better if it's just WS actually. When you include this latest movie... not so much.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
huh? WS does better if it's just WS actually. When you include this latest movie... not so much.

Come on, dude. Inhuman noted the feats, WS when not holding back BFR'd Cap, almost choked BW to death and handled a suit-less BP, who seems to be physically similar to someone who went through the super-soldier treatment. The arm is also strong enough to damage the IM suit, as he dug into it and almost tore-out the Arc Reactor.

edit: Not that I think WS is above Cap or even BP for that matter, as that cat (haha) was most impressive, but he's unquestionably above Ozy now.

Originally posted by Robtard
If it wasn't evident that WS beats Ozy before, after CA:WS it should be.

It's always been obvious that WS wins, KT is just being a quan level fanboy.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean the theory that multiple laughed at you and somebody else who brought that up? That theory? Yeah I wouldn't being that up again. Multiple people who even think Bucky could win, flat out said Ozy was putting on a show there. He was clearly trying to get them to drop their guard, and guess what, they did. To even think that shot temp KO'd Ozy is laughable and you know it.

Show me Ozy moving as super speeds in fights? I dont wat to assume or use my imagination. All his fights were slow and methodical.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not true, Bucky WAS trying to escape and then he was confronted by BP. He then ACTIVELY tried to fight BP and was easily cut off the ledge. He didn't just jump off it.. he tried to fight him and was kicked like a soccer ball for his troubles. BP got the better of WS in virtually every single one of their encounters. Every one. The point is, people tried to claim the reason Bucky beats Ozy is because Bucky is Cap level, but this movie proves beyond any doubt he's not that level.

Bucky got rid of BP(suit-less) pretty easy while trying to escape. BP confronts him again and get 1 good kick in , Bucky falls and immediately escapes because of this. So BP actually helped Bucky escape. I dont see how that is a win for BP. When BP is in his suit they were pretty much evenly fighting. But BP has that indestructible suit if you were not aware.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

1. Cap defeats Bucky on multiple occasions. With or without his shield

2. BP gets the better of WS multiple times, Cap does much better against BP

3. IM gets the better of WS and easily. Cap, again, does much better

4. Spiderman CASUALLY owns WS with the greatest of ease. Cap does much better than him.. yet again.

1. Bucky beats Cap in the escape scene. Cap was even kinda KO'ed for a bit till he got up again, and climbed up that elevator shaft to look for Bucky.

2. Wrong. I already explained this.

3. Bucky was about to rip the dam arc reactor off of Tonys chest. Only thing that stopped that is IM using his heavy weaponry to get WS off of him. If it wasnt for that WS would have beat IM.

4. It wasnt casually. They fought for a bit before Spidey webbed WS. If Spiderman Webbed Cap on the ground like that , Cap would be on the ground too.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Point is, he's not Cap level, Cap is a level above him.

Ozy holds most advantages in this fight and there is no way around that fact. None. Skills = Ozy, Speed = Ozy, Reactions = Ozy, Countering = Ozy. Strength is comparable with maybe a slight advantage to WS. Striking power = Comparable, Jumping = Ozy. These are the main factors in a h2h fight and Ozy is his superior in more areas.

The only advantages Ozy holds over Bucky is Smarts and maybe vertical jumping.
I dont see how speed , skill and reaction are Ozy's? All his "fights" beg to differ. Again are we doing the "use your imagination or assume this or that " thing?

Ozy does not move at bullet timing reactions in his fights. This is a fact based on feats. He doesnt fight at these speeds. If im wrong show me.

Ozy beat up on some skilled humans whos beast feat was beating up prisoners.
Bucky fights super powered people and skilled fighters greater than the Watchmen.

Originally posted by Robtard
Come on, dude. Inhuman noted the feats, WS when not holding back BFR'd Cap, almost choked BW to death and overpowered a suit-less BP, who seems to be physically similar to someone who went through the super-soldier treatment. The arm is also strong enough to damage the IM suit, as he dug into it and almost tore-out the Arc Reactor.

None of which is the least bit impressive really. BFRing Cap is somehow a good feat? Nah. He LOST to Cap on multiple occasions. Literally.

BW is of no consequence here, do you think she would even land a blow on Ozy? I don't. She would get curbed.

Bringing up BP doesn't help your case again, he was outclassed almost every single time they locked up. BP clearly looked like his superior, and to say otherwise is being disingenuous bud, and you know it. BP clearly got the better of their fights.

IM again curbed Bucky and maimed him. Brutally. A Bucky with help and a distractions and he still got owned.

So all these times he's lost, somehow means he wins even more clearly now? Call me tickled with laughter.

Originally posted by Robtard
edit: Not that I think WS is above Cap or even BP for that matter, as that cat (haha) was most impressive, but he's unquestionably above Ozy now.

IMO, Cap , Bucky and Black Panther are pears in stats.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
None of which is the least bit impressive really. BFRing Cap is somehow a good feat? Nah. He LOST to Cap on multiple occasions. Literally.

BW is of no consequence here, do you think she would even land a blow on Ozy? I don't. She would get curbed.

Bringing up BP doesn't help your case again, he was outclassed almost every single time they locked up. BP clearly looked like his superior, and to say otherwise is being disingenuous bud, and you know it. BP clearly got the better of their fights.

IM again curbed Bucky and maimed him. Brutally. A Bucky with help and a distractions and he still got owned.

So all these times he's lost, somehow means he wins even more clearly now? Call me tickled with laughter.

IMO, going Toe-2-Toe with Cap and then BFR'ing him is impressive. Ozy couldn't do it, imo.

With all the gear she carries, she could probably hold herself against Ozy for a bit.

I actually edited, "overpowered" to "handled" as that was doing injustice to BP. He was still impressive when taking on BP in that scene.

WS ultimately losing to IM isn't really a low showing for WS considering it's IM. WS' arm being able to damage the suit is the point though.

Originally posted by Inhuman
IMO, Cap , Bucky and Black Panther are pears in stats.

The bionic arm is stronger than Cap arm-to-arm and BP did seem to have a very slight strength advantage on Cap in at least one scene, but yea, overall I'd say they're comparable.