Originally posted by ares834
Well the actual battle in TFA isn't a copy of ANH's, in fact it is far more similar to RotJ (more so than R1) than ANH. The problem is the plot of TFA is basically ANH's.
I dunno... TFA had a trench run, much like ANH. And yes, it's mostly a similar plot to ANH, but... with great characters the could take us a long way. This one does not have great characters, it doesn't take us a long way and we get to see the same stuff we've seen many times.
Originally posted by ares834
As for callbacks, in R1 they make sense. It is after all, mere days before ANH. The only ones I thought were gratuitous wereSpoiler:The rest fit in quite naturally.
Dr. Evazan and Pando Baba.
There were many more:
Spoiler:
1. Pig face from the cantina in ANH (who'd have to rush to go to Tatooine or head miss Luke in a couple of days).
2. The Imperial spies on Jedha - the same as on Tatooine.
3. R2 and 3PO - if you wanna do anthology movies that are unrelated to the Skywalker story, leave them out.
4. Stormtroopers on Schrijf chatting about the T16... damn guys were doing that in TFA as well... I say: stop repeating yourself, the SW universe is bigger than that. TFA did it a little to much. R1 does it again and even more.
5. Red and Gold leader - although per se it wouldn't bother me, but in the long line of callbacks it gets kinda, ya know... weird. But then, why not callbacks of Biggs, Wedge and... tatataaaa PORKINS!!!And these a just a few. I certainly didn't mind Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and stuff... it makes sense. But where's General Dodonna??? IF you're gonna have so many callback, why not have the guys that are actually there a few weeks later to defend Yavin 4?
But then there's the bloody fan service:
1. A useless Saw Gerrara
2. Cyber crystals that didn't serve any purpose. In fact the Empire blows up the planet where they harvest them. Don't they want more Deaths Star's if this one's successful??? Quite stupid.
3. The very obvious death of Red Five... (Oh yes, Luke's gonna be the next Red Five, so this is how it got that place.... Who cares... )
So apart from a weak plot, a long list of unnecessary callbacks and SW self mastur... self referencing... it has a great third act. But it could have been much better with all the pieces there. I'd rate it along the lines of ROTJ I think. Maybe a little lower because of the great Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes in ROTJ.
"Pig Face" is Dr. Evazan.
Spoiler:
1. Pig face from the cantina in ANH (who'd have to rush to go to Tatooine or head miss Luke in a couple of days).[spoiler][spoiler]And what makes you think that they don't, Too hard to accept for you i guess
Spoiler:
2. Cyber crystals that didn't serve any purpose. In fact the Empire blows up the planet where they harvest them. Don't they want more Deaths Star's if this one's successful??? Quite stupid.
Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure they mentioned they stripped all the Kyber crystal from the temples
Originally posted by Kazenji
"Pig Face" is Dr. Evazan.Spoiler:
1. Pig face from the cantina in ANH (who'd have to rush to go to Tatooine or head miss Luke in a couple of days).[spoiler][spoiler]And what makes you think that they don't, Too hard to accept for you i guess
Spoiler:
2. Cyber crystals that didn't serve any purpose. In fact the Empire blows up the planet where they harvest them. Don't they want more Deaths Star's if this one's successful??? Quite stupid.Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure they mentioned they stripped all the Kyber crystal from the temples
They still didn't serve any purpose for the story, which was the main point. And the 'stripped' bit... I may have missed that bit of exposition amidst the one hour of exposition.
Originally posted by queeq
stop repeating yourself, the SW universe is bigger than that. TFA did it a little to much. R1 does it again and even more.
That's pretty ridiculous. R1 has some very minor easter eggs and callbacks to ANH... and leads right into it.
TFA is set 30 years after ANH and rips off the entire plot. TFA is infinitely more egregious.
The only thing this beats TFA in for me is the 3rd/final act. None of the rebels had much characterization, so I wasn’t nearly as invested with them as other SW movies or even felt anything for them by the end. And yeah, too much slow paced exposition, though I get what they were going for; it felt more like a ‘war’ movie than any other (heh) Star Wars film and was more grounded and less fantasy, but most of the dry characters still didn’t help it for me. Even the characters from TFA minus maybe Rey were more colorful and memorable. I don’t even remember most of the characters’ names in RO and I just saw it yesterday.
But for the things it did great, had some of the best space battles since the original trilogy, the CG actors were awkward but a nice touch, but Vader’s suit… I didn’t like how different it looks now. He still had some of the best scenes though.
Both TFA and RO were love letters to ANH at the end of the day, but TFA was more of a return to form. If my opinion is unpopular to the fresh off the hype twats then so be it.
Aside from the final act (which is head and shoulders above TFA's final act), It beats TFA in special effects, in giving us a new and original story, in new designs, in changing the tone, in being creative, and most of all in having some balls.
And just because the characters weren't as lovable and charming, doesn't mean they weren't as well developed.
This was a war movie, Cassian's arc really took us to the nit and grittiness of what it's like to be a Rebel fighting a war. That first scene where he does something bad was a very daring place for Lucasfilm and Disney to go with this, and I applaud them for that.
FYI K2SO was as lovable and charming as any of the new characters in TFA, save perhaps Finn, who might just edge him out for me.
Also R1 taking some time to build the story in the middle, is something TFA could have used more of tbh. I mean what was the Resistance? Were they a part of the Republic army, or a Republic secret intelligence service? What? Why wasn't the Republic more involved? And then they just have the Republic home base blown up and no one cares. It was just lazy story telling Imo.
Originally posted by Darth ThorSpoiler:was a tiny funny throwaway. Silly to criticise that.
Dr. EvazanSpoiler:wasn't integral to the story but was certainly related, and a part of the canon they felt was important to explain.
The kyber crystal thing
Dr. Evazan was one of MANY. If he was the only easter egg, fine. But the movie is swamped with such things. They should have spend more time on the story and the characters.
And 'explain', yes, there's the problem right. It explains something... but what? Is it vital to the story? No... does it help that it's a Cyber Crystal? No. does the attack on the Cyber Crystal transport in any way influence the story or the future of the DS? No.. So it's there just as fan service. Bad choice.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's pretty ridiculous. R1 has some very minor easter eggs and callbacks to ANH... and leads right into it.
R1 has MANY minor easter eggs. TFA also had quite a lot and that bothered me to. But this one does it AGAIN...
Originally posted by The_Tempest
TFA is set 30 years after ANH and rips off the entire plot. TFA is infinitely more egregious.
But... with great characters. It is therefore considered a sof reboot. I can live with that. But the endless self referencing should stop. It makes SW very small...
But as Ridly Prime put it: not much characterisation, slow paced exposition... that is the real problem of R1.
As for the grittiness... compared to movies it's supposed to look like (vietnam movies, Full Metal Jacket, Thin Red Line, The Pacific) it wasn't all that gritty. It was pretty clean... I did not see a single ripped off limb or even a splatter of blood.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Your age is showing, Queeq. The total amount of screen-time taken up by the easter-eggs is barely above a minute, if even that.
I dunno... I am counting the whole shield-around-a-planet thing rebels get through with a stolen Imperial shuttle and an older code as well. That will get well over one minute.
And yes, my age is showing in the sense that I feel that just a lot CGI flashy stuff doesn't make a good movie. All I hear the raving 'young' fans about is about the guys running on the beach and the star fighters in space. Soldier running on the beach getting shot to pieces has been done before and grittier. And yes, the space battle was awesome.
But... the first two acts of the story are crap, the characters are boring and flat. And the conclusion of the stand-off between between Jyn and Krennic is uber-cliché... Very predictable and lame.
They should have spent more time on story and characters and less on the fan service.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Aside from the final act (which is head and shoulders above TFA's final act), It beats TFA in special effects, in giving us a new and original story, in new designs, in changing the tone, in being creative, and most of all in having some balls.And just because the characters weren't as lovable and charming, doesn't mean they weren't as well developed.
This was a war movie, Cassian's arc really took us to the nit and grittiness of what it's like to be a Rebel fighting a war. That first scene where he does something bad was a very daring place for Lucasfilm and Disney to go with this, and I applaud them for that.
FYI K2SO was as lovable and charming as any of the new characters in TFA, save perhaps Finn, who might just edge him out for me.
Also R1 taking some time to build the story in the middle, is something TFA could have used more of tbh. I mean what was the Resistance? Were they a part of the Republic army, or a Republic secret intelligence service? What? Why wasn't the Republic more involved? And then they just have the Republic home base blown up and no one cares. It was just lazy story telling Imo.
Yeah, I still applaud R1 for the risks it took which was needed, even if I didn't quite like everything about it. I still think playing it safe with TFA was smart for SW's comeback though even if I didn't like everything about it either, but if they still do that where episode 8 proves too similar to ESB and so forth, then I'll share your views on chastising the new trilogy, but until then I see no reason to condemn it before the rest of it is out.
Aside from all that, seeing this made me realize even more how easy it'd be for them to remake the original trilogy with just CG actors, not that I think they should do it. lol Just hope they take advantage of using Vader in spinoffs as much as they can (within reason) for as long as James Earl Jones is still around, not that I doubt they could find someone to do a similar enough sounding voice after he's passed away like with Tarkin's voice in this film, but you just can't replace the original talent, much as they may try to imitate it.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Your age is showing, Queeq. The total amount of screen-time taken up by the easter-eggs is barely above a minute, if even that.
Oh, it's not about minutes either. It's more in the fact that the movie has them like ALL OVER THE MOVIE from beginning to end. If I slap you 24 times in a day, timewise it's barely half a minute in that timeframe. But I bet ya it's damn annoying.
Here's a little list (so far) of the extensive fan service in this movie. It is a little troubling to be honest:
Ponda Baba and Evazan
R2 – 3PO
Kyber crystal
Jedi lightsaber reference
Bail organa
Leia
Mon Mothma
Jan Dodonna
Hera Syndulla being called
Another squid ship commander in an Imperial battle over a shielded planet
“I have a bad feeling about this’
Blue milk
RA7 droid
Viper probe droid
Mentioning "The Whills' - we don't know what they are really, doesn't mean anything here, pure fan service
Twi’lek dancer
Mini-cantina scene – Saw’s place (another, small this time, collection of weird aliens.... TFA did that unfortunately, but he, we can always do it again).
Another Dejarik game (sure TFA couldn't resist it... neither could R1)
Stormtroopers chatting about the new T15 (just like in ANH and similar scene in TFA)
Gold leader
Red Leader
Emphasized death of Red 5
Mouse droid and identical chirping from ANH
The Ghost joins the battle
Scope guy on Yavin 4 (twice!)
Another reactor like deep shaft (data tape storage)
Mentioning of OB1
Saw Gerrara
Chopper
Bacta tank
Imperial guards (why does Vader have these?)
Feel free to add some more.
Spoiler:
Something I just realized I felt far more sadness for K2-SO’s death then I did for Han Solo’s. Heck, I felt more for most of the R1 deaths then I did for Solo’s. That’s just amazing considering Han Solo is one of the most beloved cinematic heroes of all time and he had four films compared to these guys one.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Aside from all that, seeing this made me realize even more how easy it'd be for them to remake the original trilogy with just CG actors, not that I think they should do it. lol Just hope they take advantage of using Vader in spinoffs as much as they can (within reason) for as long as James Earl Jones is still around, not that I doubt they could find someone to do a similar enough sounding voice after he's passed away like with Tarkin's voice in this film, but you just can't replace the original talent, much as they may try to imitate it.
We’re going to get it. People are gushing about this scene. Disney is going to cash in on Vader no doubt.
Originally posted by Surtur
Spoilers about K2-SO bro. But I don't care.
Shit man, sorry. I meant to spoiler tag that and I completely forgot.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I was way more sad with Han's death and thought it was ballsy for them to do that (as formulaic as the film was), but to each their own.
No doubt it was ballsy. But I felt it wasn't nearly as well executed as it should have been.