Anyway, the notion that a villain can't be physically powerful and personally pathetic doesn't make much sense. Effective villains are formidable, either in terms of strength or intellect or both.
Vader is The Heavy of the OT. He's clearly supposed to be extremely formidable. Neph's examples don't work. Vitiate's petulance didn't make him physically weaker, neither did Kreia's bitterness.
Vader can and should be a self loathing emotional fvckup and still be a guy who kicks tons and tons of ass.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Don't think it has anything to do with Kylo Ren tbh.More to do with Disney knowing what they have with Vader. An Iconic villain for all time. They want to big him up and not degrade him at all.
But it didn't degrade Vader when Luke tagged him in ESB or when Luke rage stomped him in ROTJ. Vader can be strong without being a ridiculous force god who solos armies. One of my favorite iterations of Vader was in Purge where through his cunning and his presence causing such fear managed to solo the conclave (with assistance). And Palps hyped it up to him soloing 50 Jedi.
Unlike Maul who they don't seem to mind embarrassing.Edit-
Also Filoni claims it was Lucas's instructions never to diminish Vader at all, and that he's basically unstoppable:
"We’ll have to see. You never know, you never know. The nerd-tacular obsession with Vader vs. Maul. It’s hard to say – I mean, Vader is hard to top. Something George is pretty adamant of all the time was that Vader, you know… You never want to do anything to diminish him." [/B]
Yeah I think that Filoni misinterpreted those words. You don't want to diminish Vader to me means you don't want to diminish his actions and his sacrifice. And you can be stronger than Maul, I don't really mind that, but he should be roughly on par with Ben Kenobi.
Also: "reminiscent of what had been done in the previous films but also something that was more energized. We'd seen old men, young boys, and characters who were half-droid, but we'd never seen a Jedi in his prime. I wanted to do that with a fight that was faster and more dynamic – and we were able to pull that off."
Lucas clearly is stating here that Ben Kenobi, Vader, and Luke (the duelists we see in the OT) are not Jedi in their Prime or even close to it. Which makes sense. Lucas clearly wanted PT Maul, Kenobi, and Qui-Gon to represent duelists on a higher level than Vader.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
How can he afraid of something power he doesn't have, that doesn't make sense in the least. 😬But OK, you can have that opinion if you want.
Anakin believes he is powerful enough to keep the ones he loves from dying. He realizes he is wrong. In his mind he lost the power he thought he had.
For example if I thought I had 1,000,000 dollars in my bank account, I would fear opening my bank account and finding out I only had 1,000.
I just wish Lucas left instructions not to embarrass Maul by anyone under Kenobi level 🙁
I mean I understand giving Kenobi that heroic victory over the Maul bros, which had a lot to do his courage, and his unwillingness to give up, plus him being a legendary Jedi e.t.c.
But to a Blind Kanan, and with Ahsoka just saying "Ah Blind Kanan will easily take him, it's all cool.. I can go now..." I can't stand whoever made that decision (probably Filoni inspired by Rey beating Ren).
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Lucas contradicted himself with more young boys, even older men, cyborgs who were more than half droid fighting at a higher level than in the OT.It's stunt technology and CGI.
😆 Lucas was seduced by the voice of Saru...err Christopher Lee and was like 'I gotta get that in Star Wars!'. That's what really happened.
Yeah you're right, but his initial intention was still there that the PT was supposed to be the golden age of dueling way above the OT duelists.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anyway, the notion that a villain can't be physically powerful and personally pathetic doesn't make much sense. Effective villains are formidable, either in terms of strength or intellect or both.Vader is The Heavy of the OT. He's clearly supposed to be extremely formidable. Neph's examples don't work. Vitiate's petulance didn't make him physically weaker, neither did Kreia's bitterness.
Vader can and should be a self loathing emotional fvckup and still be a guy who kicks tons and tons of ass.
I never said that this couldn't be the case, just that it doesn't match up with how I feel Vader should be represented as. I tire of the Vader worship, he's not a character we should think of as a badass. He remains formidable compared to the shattered remains of the galaxy, but not necessarily outside of that context. Also villains don't need to be either. Like I said, Tarro Blood was a more effective villain than Vitiate was despite being neither strong nor smart (and like a classic disney villain, vaguely effeminate). He was just a jackass who used people. And I ****ing hated him. He was such an absolute prick.
And a key part of the OT was the reveal that his role as The Heavy was a cover for how pathetic and broken he was. Vitiate's petulance came about when he proved weaker than he estimated and faceplanted. It made him feel actually human instead of a comicbook supervillain.
Except that Vader's being a pathetic shell of a man is represented by the fact that he literally is a cripple who got physically mangled and became a shadow of what he could have been.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said that this couldn't be the case, just that it doesn't match up with how I feel Vader should be represented as. I tire of the Vader worship, he's not a character we should think of as a badass. He remains formidable compared to the shattered remains of the galaxy, but not necessarily outside of that context. Also villains don't need to be either. Like I said, Tarro Blood was a more effective villain than Vitiate was despite being neither strong nor smart (and like a classic disney villain, vaguely effeminate). He was just a jackass who used people. And I ****ing hated him. He was such an absolute prick.And a key part of the OT was the reveal that his role as The Heavy was a cover for how pathetic and broken he was. Vitiate's petulance came about when he proved weaker than he estimated and faceplanted. It made him feel actually human instead of a comicbook supervillain.
Except that Vader's being a pathetic shell of a man is represented by the fact that he literally is a cripple who got physically mangled and became a shadow of what he could have been.
Right, but what you feel is driven by your enormous bias to elevate older, less important eras and characters that no one cares about and who never amount to anything in the grand scheme of things. Your fixation with Bane is proof of that and you know it, which is why you refuse to address it. And why the examples you cite are so shallow: Kreia's bitterness didn't make him less formidable, nor did Vitiate's petulance. Your interest in such frailty only relates to movie characters.
From a narrative perspective, Vader serves the story quite well as an extraordinary badass who also happens to be a locus of self loathing and emotional distress. You just want him, and consequently his peers, to be weaker so it makes SWTOR/Bane look better. 😬
Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
His best canon feat is defeating Maul and Savage at once.
But Maul is shit that Kanan can beat, and Savage is even worse because Maul can defeat him.
Therefore Sidious' feats are below Vader's.Stop acting like you don't see the pottery.
Then I stand by my earlier statement:
KEK.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right, but what you feel is driven by your enormous bias to elevate older, less important eras and characters that no one cares about and who never amount to anything in the grand scheme of things. Your fixation with Bane is proof of that and you know it, which is why you refuse to address it. And why the examples you cite are so shallow: Kreia's bitterness didn't make him less formidable, nor did Vitiate's petulance. Your interest in such frailty only relates to movie characters.From a narrative perspective, Vader serves the story quite well as an extraordinary badass who also happens to be a locus of self loathing and emotional distress. You just want him, and consequently his peers, to be weaker so it makes SWTOR/Bane look better. 😬
Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
I think it's more likely that your bias is leading to a hostile reading of anything I say. You're not even responding to anything I say anymore, you're just ad homininum'ingimum'ing me. And I don't have a fixation on Bane. I haven't even read the last book. It's mostly that I was defending my opinion about him that caused me to talk about him alot. My reluctance to get into that topic right now, might possibly have to do with the dozen threads a week designed solely to mock me for said opinions and the widespread harassment I've received from members, including yourself, in the past on the subject. MAAAAAYBEEE~
Also Kreia ain't a man, baby. And I was responding to the "pathetic" portion of your statement when I brought her and Vitiate up. Maybe you should try keeping in mind the things you say in the future.
I disagree. I feel it hurts the narrative when it starts treating Vader as some ultimate badass. I'd prefer it if he were treated as the pathetic bastard he was instead of media constantly glorifying him. Kylo Ren seems like a character not many people have gotten yet.
I got to make an Austin Powers reference. I'm not upset, I'm just naturally this sarcastic.
I've given my thoughts on Bane and a reason why I'm not interested in discussing it in any particular detail. End of, imo.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Prove it wrong, Neph.
"Darth Sidious is the strongest Sith ever." - some source
KEK x2 combo!