Originally posted by Robtardhttp://www.sexchangeregret.com/research
*Needs citation*Another rage-y attack. Stop trolling for attention, we're having an honest discussion. Thanks.
Here is a citation.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Originally posted by It's xyz!
http://www.sexchangeregret.com/researchHere is a citation.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
LoL, you should have done a little better research than posting the first link you found when googling "sex change sucks". Did you even bother reading what you posted? It seems you didn't, as it's an open opinion piece. From that site:
"I come away with the realization that good research and studies need to be done on the effectiveness of sex change surgery."
"Anyone considering the surgery should proceed with "extreme caution" and be evaluated by psychologists who do not have a reputation of promoting the surgery." -snip
Great, that's already the case, as noted, people just can't walk into a hospital and get a sex change, it takes a length of time and a therapist has to sign-off on it. ie Let the professionals handle it.
I'm not the one making claims of fact and then not proving said claims, you are though, as you just did.
Originally posted by Robtardlol, you didn't even bother considering the website is by a gender reassigned person who lists countless examples of people who regret sex change.
LoL, you should have done a little better research than posting the first link you found when googling "sex change sucks". Did you even bother reading what you posted? It seems you didn't, as it's an open opinion piece. From that site:[b]"I come away with the realization that good research and studies need to be done on the effectiveness of sex change surgery."
"Anyone considering the surgery should proceed with "extreme caution" and be evaluated by psychologists who do not have a reputation of promoting the surgery."
-snipGreat, that's already the case, as noted, people just can't walk into a hospital and get a sex change, it takes a length of time and a therapist has to sign-off on it. ie Let the professionals handle it.
I'm not the one making claims of fact and then not proving said claims, you are though, as you just did. [/B]
I felt you'd take an actual transgender person seriously when discussing transgendered people, but you demonstrate your failed trolling even further by insulting him. Good going, dick.
He quotes and links a long term Swedish study from 2003 on the link I provided.
324 sex reassigned people themselves concluded that sex change results in higher risk of suicide and depression. In fact, based on this study alone, I think it's safe to trust their opinion over yours.
But hey, why should you listen to transgendered people about transgenderism, you clearly mentioned schizophrenia and spoke about housing for schizophrenics. What you don't understand is I've experienced this type of forced drug and housing on schizophrenic patients. This is another case of making things worse, but schizophrenia is not the subject of this thread and one of the worst things with regards to mental illness is treating them all as if they were the same you shameful bigot.
You have trouble taking people with actual experiences seriously so let me tell you again.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You should probably stop posting.
At least you finally read your own story. If you were paying attention, there was another story posted on the very high rate of suicide of transgender people and it largely put forth that the negative stigmatism is or can be a cause.
"Schizophrenia" and "manic depression" were mentioned as examples of a mental illness, so stop trying to make everything be about you; what we're talking about here has nothing to do with you. No one is forcing people to get sex-changes so that comparison is silly. ie stop being an attention seeker. Thanks.
Maybe you should just let the professionals decide and let people have a surgery if they really want/need it, it's their own body. You're playing body-police.
Originally posted by Robtardis or can be are two entirely different things. Your opening statement has no basis and is inconclusive.
At least you finally read your own story. If you were paying attention, there was another story posted on the very high rate of suicide of transgender people and it largely put forth that the negative stigmatism is or can be a cause."Schizophrenia" and "manic depression" were mentioned as examples of a mental illness, so stop trying to make everything be about you; what we're talking about here has nothing to do with you. No one is forcing people to get sex-changes so that comparison is silly. ie stop being an attention seeker. Thanks.
Maybe you should just let the professionals decide and let people have a surgery if they really want/need it, it's their own body. You're playing body-police.
You're the one who mentions and attacks me, bro. They were terrible examples and highlight your own short comings and ignorance of things you talk about. At least I have anecdotes and links, you just have insults and weird accusations.
Like here. I'm not playing body police, in fact, I've said people can do whatever the **** what they want with their bodies consistently in this thread.
With regards to transgender, I've posted a website from a transgendered person who cites a Swedish study made by transgender people who conclude that it increases the risks of suicide.
I've also stated its not a good idea to inject hormones in your body that counteract against your biology. This should be obvious to any sane person, which opens the door to the possibility that transgender is is a mental illness.
You asked if hormone therapy could be a cure, I've demonstrated that it isn't. You're now saying negative stigmatism can be a cause of depression and suicide.
Well, I wonder what kind of negative stigmatism you're talking about. A lot of conditions have negative stigmas, schizophrenia, for example. But it's shitty to even consider the two comparable.
What negative stigma to trans people receive that makes their rate of suicide so alarmingly high?
Why don't you think the hormones they're receiving that go against their biology is not the cause of depression and suicide?
Originally posted by Robtard
If it's legitimate medical depression and a "boob job" is the actual cure instead of therapy and/or drugs, I don't see how we can say no, when we're saying yes to cures and lifelong treatments for a slew of other mental illnesses. But iirc, something like a boob job is considered "cosmetic", but again, that's were the professionals come in.Exactly, if we're treating mental illness with state money, then we treat all mental illnesses, not cherry-picking and saying no to gender-related illnesses because someone can't wrap their mind around why those can be legitimate illnesses.
See above. If professionals diagnose something as being factual, so be it.
Of course not, but we were specifically talking about people who want/need surgery. Not all people need or even want it.
How is a sex change not cosmetic? Remember, a sex change is not actually needed. It's not like their bodies will physically shut down without it. Not everyone wants the sex change, but as was pointed out not all people who want one have that designated disease you are talking about. So we should give them a free sex change even if they don't suffer from a mental illness? That doesn't even make sense to me since you are looking at this from the point of view of it being a mental illness so people who want a sex change, but don't have one should not get one, right? At least not for free.
Also you keep throwing the word "cure" around but there actually isn't any actual legitimate cure out there that has been discovered. What we do know is that there is a high rate of suicide or attempted suicide for these people post op. We know that a lack of strong familial bonds and/or being shunned by society as a whole can cause these feelings of wanting to commit suicide to get even worse. We also know there really hasn't been any magic cure for any specific mental illness. I'm not sure if you were aware of that or not.
Originally posted by Surtur
How is a sex change not cosmetic? Remember, a sex change is not actually needed. It's not like their bodies will physically shut down without it. Not everyone wants the sex change, but as was pointed out not all people who want one have that designated disease you are talking about. So we should give them a free sex change even if they don't suffer from a mental illness? That doesn't even make sense to me since you are looking at this from the point of view of it being a mental illness so people who want a sex change, but don't have one should not get one, right? At least not for free.Also you keep throwing the word "cure" around but there actually isn't any actual legitimate cure out there that has been discovered. What we do know is that there is a high rate of suicide or attempted suicide for these people post op. We know that a lack of strong familial bonds and/or being shunned by society as a whole can cause these feelings of wanting to commit suicide to get even worse. We also know there really hasn't been any magic cure for any specific mental illness. I'm not sure if you were aware of that or not.
Because if a man actually identifies as a woman mentally, having the body of a man and being treated like a man probably isn't healthy [mentally] for them. Same goes for women. Look at it this way, what if you woke up tomorrow and through some cosmic joke, you have the body of a woman, but your mind was exactly the same. See.
Sure there are cases where people regret having the change; yet there are cases where people are doing fine or if not better post surgery. I think it's stupid to blanket it either way. So why not just let adults do what they wish with their own bodies and if a professional deems it as a legitimate mental health issue, then accept it as that.
Originally posted by Robtard
Because if a man actually identifies as a woman mentally, having the body of a man and being treated like a man probably isn't healthy [mentally] for them. Same goes for women. Look at it this way, what if you woke up tomorrow and through some cosmic joke, you have the body of a woman, but your mind was exactly the same. See.
Yes but physically they are fine. Your physical health is not in danger if you do not get a sex change.
Sure there are cases where people regret having the change; yet there are cases where people are doing fine or if not better post surgery. I think it's stupid to blanket it either way. So why not just let adults do what they wish with their own bodies and if a professional deems it as a legitimate mental health issue, then accept it as that.
But the problem is before you said if there was a cure we should pay for it. I just told you there is most definitely not a cure. So why should we pay for their sex changes? Let these adults do what they want on their own dime.
You also seem to think I don't accept it is a mental issue, but I started this entire discussion by saying I think these people have a mental illness. By your own words you should actually support my stance because there is no actual cure for this, which is the stipulation you used for us paying for their sex change.
Originally posted by Surtur
Yes but physically they are fine. Your physical health is not in danger if you do not get a sex change.But the problem is before you said if there was a cure we should pay for it. I just told you there is most definitely not a cure. So why should we pay for their sex changes? Let these adults do what they want on their own dime.
You also seem to think I don't accept it is a mental issue, but I started this entire discussion by saying I think these people have a mental illness. By your own words we should not pay for it because it doesn't actually cure anything.
On the subject of government subsidized sex-changes, I'm undecided, but I lean toward supporting them because I know people who have been so torn up by identity problems that they hurt themselves badly, and thus it's a mental health concern. Mind you, mental health concern and mental illness are different things.
I think you're right there's no medical "cure" for their problem, but sex changes often do help trans people feel more natural in their own skin. The other issue though is that they still feel out of place in society, because despite some recent advancements, our society still treats them as freaks.
Here's my advice on how you treat trans people: (1) a little empathy and compassion goes a LONG way (2) don't be an *******, they deal with enough of them as it is
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Earnest question, do you actually know any trans people personally?On the subject of government subsidized sex-changes, I'm undecided, but I lean toward supporting them because I know people who have been so torn up by identity problems that they hurt themselves badly, and thus it's a mental health concern. Mind you, mental health concern and mental illness are different things.
Yes, though I do not know anyone who has actually gotten the surgery. Thankfully this state hasn't gone that insane yet.
But whether or not you even know a trans person doesn't change the fact there is no actual cure for this.
I think you're right there's no medical "cure" for their problem, but sex changes often do help trans people feel more natural in their own skin. The other issue though is that they still feel out of place in society, because despite some recent advancements, our society still treats them as freaks.Here's my advice on how you treat trans people: (1) a little empathy and compassion goes a LONG way (2) don't be an *******, they deal with enough of them as it is [/B]
It's not being an ******* to not want to pay for their sex change, they flat out don't deserve it and I'm glad at least it's just one crazy state doing it.
I empathize with them because I think they are mentally ill. I'm not saying round them up and put them in a camp, just have them pay for their own sex changes. I think it's a crazy world if you're a dick because you want someone to pay for their own sex change.
Originally posted by Surtur
Yes, though I do not know anyone who has actually gotten the surgery. Thankfully this state hasn't gone that insane yet.But whether or not you even know a trans person doesn't change the fact there is no actual cure for this.
It's not being an ******* to not want to pay for their sex change, they flat out don't deserve it and I'm glad at least it's just one crazy state doing it.
Originally posted by Surtur
Yes but physically they are fine. Your physical health is not in danger if you do not get a sex change.But the problem is before you said if there was a cure we should pay for it. I just told you there is most definitely not a cure. So why should we pay for their sex changes? Let these adults do what they want on their own dime.
You also seem to think I don't accept it is a mental issue, but I started this entire discussion by saying I think these people have a mental illness. By your own words you should actually support my stance because there is no actual cure for this, which is the stipulation you used for us paying for their sex change.
So screw a person's mental health so long as physically "they're fine"? Come on, man.
I said if a professional deems that a sex-change will be like a "cure" for their mental woes, then sure, why not.
If you think it's a mental illness, they you should be more accommodating and empathetic towards people who are probably pretty torn mentally. Like I said, how would you feel having the body of a woman with your exact same mindset now, you'd want your man-body back.
I know a trans person(not a best friend or anything), I also have close family members that have suffered from mental illness. I myself suffer from a mild form of OCD. I have been exposed to mental illness up close. I realize a lot of people tend to "diagnose" themselves with OCD when they don't truly have it, but I actually take meds for it.
The nature of mental illnesses is even such that one treatment might work for a while, but then not be as effective. You can always try a different type of approach, but you can't really undo a sex change. Or I don't know maybe you can.
Originally posted by Surtur
I know a trans person(not a best friend or anything), I also have close family members that have suffered from mental illness. I myself suffer from a mild form of OCD. I have been exposed to mental illness up close.The nature of mental illnesses is even such that one treatment might work for a while, but then not be as effective. You can always try a different type of approach, but you can't really undo a sex change. Or I don't know maybe you can.
But see, when you treat it as a mental illness you're just feeding coal to the fire--trans people already feel like outcasts and they're made to feel like freaks. When you stop thinking of them as crazy (refer back to my "mental health concern" vs "mentally ill" distinction) you'll be better able to help them, that is if you truly do sympathize.
Part of being an adult is making choices and sometimes those choices don't pan out. As noted, you can't just decide to have a sex-change one day and you have it, it's a long process and professionals have to deem you mentally "fit" for it. ie the person is legitimately a different gender than their birth gender. They try their best to make sure the candidate can legitimately flourish post operation. People have been turned down.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Can't believe you brought up "mild OCD" as if that would give you ethos here.But see, when you treat it as a mental illness you're just feeding coal to the fire--trans people already feel like outcasts and they're made to feel like freaks. When you stop thinking of them as crazy (refer back to my "mental health concern" vs "mentally ill" distinction) you'll be better able to help them, that is if you truly do sympathize.
You are the one saying I should try to empathize with them and I pointed out my own experience with various mental illnesses, including one I suffer from. I never said it means my opinion is more valid, but you were the one who brought up trying to see it from their point of view.
I did not say OCD was like what they suffer from. Though I definitely know what it is like to be uncomfortable in your body due to a mental illness. Not to the same extent, but I do.
EDIT: I also do know a bit about what it is like to have an illness that people don't necessarily understand. Imagine being a kid with OCD and not being able to understand why you do the things you do. Which on top of that having other children in your class definitely not understanding why you do these things.