Originally posted by Nephthys
Wyyrlok certainly won, sure, but he didn't stomp him like Nox stomped Thanaton and not even close to the same humiliating degree.
What.
He quite calmly and effortlessly deflected the lightning Andeddu seeked to ambush him with, which prompted Andeddu to completely rethink his efforts and retreat into an area in which he stood more of a chance... And he still lost.
It's pretty clear Wyyrlok was the decisive victor.
Originally posted by Vixas
As for the whole "not being able to handle the ghosts at full potency" thing. Like a sensible person rather than state "I think this so you're wrong" or "I believe this so HA!" I went back and watched these scenes myself. In the Act 2 finale, Nox is overwhelmed by the spirits all flooding him/her with their power, which is what unleashed the blast Sel says would still deteriorate Nox. Which, while plausible, is a superfluous argument. The real question to ask is not whether that same energy would still harm Nox that way,but rather, are the ghosts still capable of unleashing all that energy in such a way that it damages Nox? To which the answer is no and is WHY Nox can wield it as she does at the End of Act 3, as is obvious, in a more refined and effective manner without burning her body out.Now, as to Thanaton being tired when we cinematically see Nox bat away his lightning and TK dominate him, etc. It always intrigues me that people seem to act like Nox hadn't just fought Thanaton and was instead coming in when he was already beaten down. Yes Thanaton is tired, why? Because Nox defeatd him through superior Force mastery. This childish notion of "X could only do Y to Z because Z was tired" right after they fought is applying a stipulation caused by X to begin with in this instance. For example, on a more physical plane and one not open to as much interpretation....
Try saying the same ting about say... two MMA fighters and one submitting the other when the one who was victorious was obviously superior the entire fight. "Well, X only submitted him because he was tired!" obviously, we just saw the other out-fight them to GET them there so.... pointless fact, bravo.
And before Sel says something along the lines of... what was it? "Nox had to tire Thanaton out to ragdoll him." first of all game mechanics due to the fact that in the MMO you have to deplete a health bar. Second, if Sel is going to say things are true since she believes them, then I will take my turn if you please.
Obviously at the end of the confrontation Thanaton is winded. What is interesting to note is that there is actually a clue here as to the "tone" of the fight itself, despite us doing it in a game-mechanics fight. Nox, obviously not winded, doesn't just kill Thanaton and be done with. (Obviously able to as well) Instead Nox shows Thanaton their disparity in power by tanking everything he throws at her and stays standing. Now, like Sel's thoughts but with obvious view-able support, these are speculations based on what can be observed by any who watch this cinematic.
I'm on my phone so I can't do the usual quote, breakdown, reply, but I can respond to the general argument.
I mean, unless I'm mistaken, what you're saying in the first paragraph is that Nox never unleashes the same amount of energy that she did at the end of act 2. You wouldn't be wrong, if that's what you're saying, but this entire time I've been saying it's because the same thing would happen.
Why is that relevant you ask? Because Neph's been suggesting that Nox's ghosts would amp her lightning and telekinesis beyond anything we've ever seen Nox do, because ghosts and reasons and shit. It's a ridiculous argument, she's never done it before, one needs to ask why, when dealing with a psychopathic Sith obsessed with power.
As for your Thanaton Act III points, you missed the point I'm afraid 😬 Nox "ragdolling" is quite impressive, I'll admit. But the fact of the matter is it's a weakened Thanaton. Your argument that it doesn't matter because Nox fought him to that weakened state, is false. It'd be an acceptable argument if we're talking about beating Thanaton as a whole, but we're not, we're talking about the specific act of Telekinetically dominating him. The fact they fought first is relevant because it shows Nox could not simply do this from the start, she can only do it while she's on relatively fine form and he is not. The only thing Nox is displaying by Telekinetically dominating him isn't a distinct power gap over him, but a deeper Force Reserve and stamina, potentially provided by both the Nexus and her Force Ghosts.
So yeh, a decent feat, relevant in a fight, but not in the ways Neph has been suggesting, since he suggested that feat outclasses all the hype, and the feats, Wyyrlok has regarding TK.
Originally posted by Selenial
Why is that relevant you ask? Because Neph's been suggesting that Nox's ghosts would amp her lightning and telekinesis beyond anything we've ever seen Nox do, because ghosts and reasons and shit. It's a ridiculous argument, she's never done it before, one needs to ask why, when dealing with a psychopathic Sith obsessed with power.
Swtore directly states that Nox is able to "wield their combined power like a weapon". What I and Vixas are saying is that Nox can use the power (all of it) in a much more controlled, effective manner after Voss. Which is obviously correct.
Also have you just not watched the Thanaton duel in a while? She's clearly still using the ghost-amp to ragdoll and then defeat Thanaton. You have the glowing eyes and swirling energy still going on.
Originally posted by Selenial
I'm on my phone so I can't do the usual quote, breakdown, reply, but I can respond to the general argument.I mean, unless I'm mistaken, what you're saying in the first paragraph is that Nox never unleashes the same amount of energy that she did at the end of act 2. You wouldn't be wrong, if that's what you're saying, but this entire time I've been saying it's because the same thing would happen.
Why is that relevant you ask? Because Neph's been suggesting that Nox's ghosts would amp her lightning and telekinesis beyond anything we've ever seen Nox do, because ghosts and reasons and shit. It's a ridiculous argument, she's never done it before, one needs to ask why, when dealing with a psychopathic Sith obsessed with power.
As for your Thanaton Act III points, you missed the point I'm afraid 😬 Nox "ragdolling" is quite impressive, I'll admit. But the fact of the matter is it's a weakened Thanaton. Your argument that it doesn't matter because Nox fought him to that weakened state, is false. It'd be an acceptable argument if we're talking about beating Thanaton as a whole, but we're not, we're talking about the specific act of Telekinetically dominating him. The fact they fought first is relevant because it shows Nox could not simply do this from the start, she can only do it while she's on relatively fine form and he is not. The only thing Nox is displaying by Telekinetically dominating him isn't a distinct power gap over him, but a deeper Force Reserve and stamina, potentially provided by both the Nexus and her Force Ghosts.
So yeh, a decent feat, relevant in a fight, but not in the ways Neph has been suggesting, since he suggested that feat outclasses all the hype, and the feats, Wyyrlok has regarding TK.
Ah I see, well then I appreciate your points Lady Selenial. Thank you for responding. Though I do have a counter-point should you hear me out. 🙂
As for Nox's ability to ragdoll Thanaton without him being exhausted, I can make a solid case for this. At the end of Act 2 we see Nox's expulsion of power completely outclasses Thanaton. Totally and utterly to the point he flees. Now, I was drawing a very fine line when I meant that scenario wouldn't happen again. I'm not precisely saying Nox cannot reach that level of power again without damaging themselves. To be quite frank such a black and white, yes or no, kind of thing is something seems one that will be colored by our perception of the charcter one way or the other without concrete statements or a feat(s) dictating one way or the other. What I WILL say though, is that given Nox's newfound level of precise control over the ghosts, and our lack of knowing precisely how the fight went (and obvious game-mechanics dictating "health" is a thing and that smugglers can take saber strikes) it is entirely possible, and supported by Nox's demeanor at the end of the fight by my perception (Again this can be colored by your opinion of the character, or fight as a whole). Nox isn't striking Thanaton at first, Nox is taking EVERYTHING Thanaton can throw at him and then shrugging and dominating him. Maybe their entire "fight" were it cinmetically, would e this way. We have no way of actually knowing. However, what we DO know is Nox, when forced to use the ghosts in an unrestrained manner by them, blew an actively-ready, lightsaber-drawn Thanaton across the room and left him electrified. To myself, and quite honestly I would think anyone willing to drop prejudice for a moment, could put 2 and 2 together to see a more refined, if POSSIBLY by our opinion dampened, application of said power could do the same.
Now then, onto the actual opponent xD Wyyrlok is very impressive and is one of the Legacy Era characters I enjoyed researching. He has impressive TK feats, and through his form of media is given ample opportunity to flaunt this. Now, having studied respect threads for both I feel I have a better grasp of the character of Wyyrlok and their contest. To be frank, not TOO much has changed from my initial concept of the fight. Darth Wyyrlok is arguably as focused in mental manipulation (TP) as Nox is lightning. However, Nox and their subsequent story are all about overcoming frankly worse, constant assaults on their mind and body by five different sith spirits. On top of that, should Wyyrlok enter his mind in an attempt to control him, Nox can Dream-Walk into his own mind and expel Wyyrlok. Thus, Wyyrlok's TP will serve him no good here.
Telekinesis: Honestly, I give Wyyrlok a small edge in raw TK. One does not have to win every facet of a debate. Though depending on how effective the force barriers are of certain individuals, it's entirely possible this cold be reversed. However, I will say that Nox has employed VERY effective TP against other powerful Sith who were attacking him as he used it. Case in point, Darth Kallous, the sith Nox dominates before facing Thanaton on Corellia. Who was unleashing torrents of lightning at Nox, only to be flung clear across the room.
Lightning: I would honestly say Wyyrlok is around if not slightly below even Thanaton in lightning. Nox holds a clear advantage here with their lightning capable of killing Terentateks (Known for their incredible force resistance) and turning stone walls to little more than dust.
Now then, lightsaber combat is another matter entirely. Wyyrlok obviously possesses more concrete feats. Though often brought up though, I feel Nox's defeat of Palladius is slightly overlooked here. Given that, over the course of the duel, Nox's strength in the Force was being constantly drained at an alarming rate. As a matter of fact, Palladius himself states Nox was weakened enough for him to ragdoll, further highlighting the skill Nox must possess in order to compensate for being at such a huge force disadvantage. Even assuming Palladius is a run-of-the-mill, absolutely average Lordling, this says a lot for Nox's skill with a saber. Nox's
Finally, I also don't doubt at all Nox also holds the advantage of force reserves and physical stamina. Given their proclivity of fighting through entire bases with impunity.
Quoting system not working properly, so I'll just cite the statements.
"Wyyrlok can't threaten Nox with sorcery.".... Right. Darth Wyyrlok, one of the most knowledgable Sith in history, doesn't eclipse Nox with Sorcery? I could see the argument, she's the head of the "an purmid of Ancient Knowledge" and studies rituals for a living. Right. So does Wyyrlok, and he's been doing it for decades longer my friend."Known as the Loremaster of the Sith, Darth Wyyrlok is one of the greatest scholars of Jedi, Sith and other Force-using traditions in the galaxy. Darth Wyyrlok has access to books, scrolls, holocrons and computer records from across eons, which he has collected in the hopes of gaining a deeper understanding of the Force."
"His knowledge of the History and lore of the Sith is unparalleled, and he is surpassed in the force only by Darth Krayt."
Now I'm not attempting to assert Wyyrlok's going to ritual **** her, but your casual assertion that Nox is his superior in sorcery is pretty baseless :/
Darth Thanaton spent decades studying ancient sources of knowledge (secrets of Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Ajunta Pall and Naga Sadow among them) to hone his talents in the Dark Side.
Yet, Darth Nox outgunned him in a span of like 3 years?
Point is that Darth Wyyrlok's command of the Force might still be insignificant against Darth Nox.
Lightning? You say Nox has destroyed stone? Congratu****inglations, if only Wyyrlok had a feat where he destroyed something infinitely harder, maybe something that could repel lightsaber strikes even.... Oh wait. That's right. His lightning was strong enough to eviscerate Darth Krayt's Vonduun Crab Armor:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...y+%2348+004.jpg
"A vonduun crab’s shell is capable of repelling blasterfire, resisting most conventional melee weapons, and even deflecting lightsaber blades."
Darth Thanaton's Force Lightning was potent enough to blow apart structures over 30 years before his prime. More importantly, he exponentially grew in power since the events of Exal Kressh.
However, Darth Nox tanked Darth Thanaton's signature expression of Force Lightning by drawing on the power of Force ghosts bind to him.
Point is that Darth Wyyrlok isn't threatening Darth Nox in this area.
Now, TK. I'm not even going to bother making an argument, until I get an answer to this question. How on earth does Nox's choking plebians and TK'ing nothing too major, compare with the fact that Wyyrlok is stated solidly more powerful in all areas of the Force than Sith who throw starships like they're nothing, and crash orbital stations into the ground?
Following showings:
- say a lot about a Darth Nox's powers in general. Dominating a super-strong Sith Lord like that is something that we expect from a Palpatine level Force-user. Granted that Darth Nox was drawing on the power of Force ghosts bind to him to fuel his own during this time, nothing suggests that his utilization of the power of Force ghosts is a one-time thing.
As for sabers, again, since Wyyrlok's fight with Krayt goes off panel, and he obviously at least contended with him, what Saber only feats does Nox have that places him anywhere near Wyyrlok?
Darth Nox defeated a Sith Lord in combat whose prowess with a Lightsaber is officially stated to be unparalleled. 🙂
Originally posted by Selenial
To be honest, even if it's true that it's not a ritual, all that's proving is that Nox isn't as powerful with ghosts as you're suggesting, since Thanaton isn't some uber powerful Sith Lord eclipsing the rest of the council, in fact he's laughed at and considered one of the lowest among them...
Darth Thanaton is officially counted among the most powerful Sith Lords in history. He was confident in his abilities to an extent that he threatened the entire Dark Council of dire consequences (on its face) after he is done with Darth Nox. Unfortunately for him, those Force ghosts....
Darth Marr did not expect Darth Thanaton's demise during his life-time. I'd take his views seriously.
Originally posted by Trocity
Pretty much every Sith in SWTOR has telekinesis on par with Vader.
Darth Vader have some notable and praiseworthy telekinetic showings. However, this doesn't imply that some of the greatest of the SWTOR era do not rival him in this area due to lack of equal showings on pound-to-pound basis and/or exploration of their personal stories in comparison.
Power-scaling and feats complement each other at times.
Originally posted by Selenial
Debatable, but it's not a debate we need get into since he'd win either way.
Concession accepted.
Originally posted by Selenial
Cute, baseless opinion you have there. Not only did Wyyrlok have access to most of the Sith History that survived Palpatine's fall, but he was also one of the only Sith in history to have unrestricted access to all of Darth Andeddu's secrets and holocrons. Even the power of Essence Transfer.
Well he sure used that to great effect, huh? He sure Essence Transfered the shit out of Krayt!
Didn't he only get Andeddu's stuff right before he died? Anyway, the point is irrelevant. As I said, Wyyrlok's displayed no sorcery useful against Nox, whereas Nox has plenty of combat relevant sorcerous abilities to call upon.
Originally posted by Selenial
So in effect, you're using an almost entirely unexplained concept to hope to the high heavens that Nox's power gain is 100% of what the ghosts' original power was? Force Ghost power doesn't work like that, unless you have a quote proving otherwise.
Why would I hope, it's what it is. Nox can use their "combined power" in battle.
Originally posted by Selenial
Except we know he destroyed the armor. And you can actually see it splitting into different pieces. If that's your only defense against the feat though, kek.
Can you provide evidence for how much damage he did or if he truly destroyed it?
Originally posted by Selenial
In regards to her "back-handing Thanaton's force lightning"... Lol. You are forgetting to mention the fact this is immediately following the line "No... I won't be defeated, I can't be" through exasperated tone. This is a Thanaton who's already lost the first round of the fight, and is clearly depleted.
This is merely supposition on your part. It's equally likely that Nox just b*tchslapped Thanaton once and he reacted as he does. Nox knocking him to his knee's with one attack could easily lead to his statements of disbelief, combined with his previous defeat. There's nothing that suggests a lengthy battle that required Thanaton to suffer any attrition. There is no "clearly depleted", you're reading what you want to. Furthermore, Nox gives Thanaton time to recover, to gather himself and freedom to do whatever he wants.
Originally posted by Selenial
On top of this, the two are fighting in the Dark Council Chambers in one of the most powerful Dark Side Nexus' in the galaxy. Whoever is in the healthiest position is in the best position to abuse the Nexus, and obviously since he's beaten and weakened, and she was victorious, deflecting his lightning is not anywhere near as impressive as it would be while both were in their prime.
WTF no. That isn't how it works, stop being a derp and stating your dumb fanon theories as fact.
Originally posted by Selenial
Now, what is ****ing hilarious is that Wyyrlok did the exact same thing, in the font of Darth Andeddu's power. This being the Dark Lord of the Sith who reined for hundreds of years, reanimated.
No he didn't. He reflected Andeddu's lightning with his palm, something very standard. It's just what Dooku did in AotC. There's no indication of ease. Nox literally slapped it aside in a deliberately insulting manner.
Originally posted by Selenial
If only you could prove her "ghost-powered lightning was anything extraordinary 🙁
She not only has her own power to draw upon but can freely use the "combined power" of 5 ghosts and wield them "as a weapon". I'm pretty sure 6 powerful Force Users worth of lightning is pretty ****ing extraordinary.
Originally posted by Selenial
Wyyrlok is confirmed to be stronger in Telekinesis than any other One Sith. Dozens of other One Sith have better Telekinetic showings than Darth Nox does. That is all that needs to be said.Thanaton was incredibly weakened at that point. Oh, and Wyyrlok has launched tonnes of rubble at incredibly speed, so he quite blatantly is proficient in Telekinesis 🙂
Post the quote confirming that please? Also no, they don't, you're being ridiculous.
Um, no shit? Did you think I was arguing Wyyrlok can't use TK? Also you can't prove it was at incredible speed cuz it's in panel format. You just made that part up, again.
Also Thanaton wasn't incredibly weakened.
Originally posted by Selenial
If by that you mean he's clearly a Soresu duelist
Ahahahaha!
He wasn't getting his ass kicked, he was clearly just using Soresu! Of course!
Originally posted by Selenial
who was barely holding off Krayt, which is something I never argue against, then sure. He got "Pathetically blitzed" by Krayt because his blade was down and he was lulled into believing he'd dominated Krayt's mind. That's not exactly going to happen with Nox. Holding off Krayt is a phenomenal feat, considering Krayt's one of the greatest duelists in Sith history 🙂
Holy shit! Wrongaroony! Wyyrlok had his blade held high in preparation for a killing stroke. Krayt didn't even have his lightsaber in his hand. He retrieved it, activated it, turned around and buried it in Wyyrlok's chest before the guy could perform a single swing at a defenseless opponent who's giving a monologue. You should really double check your claims....
Originally posted by Selenial
No, Nox as an inquisitor was said to be as skilled with the blade as the force. The game makes it incredibly clear though that you only pick one path, in many of the canon discussions you have. Hence the quote does not apply 🙂
...... 😐
I'm pretty sure Nox is always an Inquisitor. And since the quote applies to all Inquisitor's, it applies to Nox. I'd say GG but, yeah......
Originally posted by Selenial
Please prove to me that this Sith Lord was anything decent with a blade. Or with Telekinesis. Seeing as you can block Lightning with a Lightsaber without even being force sensitive, and he has nothing on him as a duelist. Youngling tier confirmed 🙂
It doesn't matter how good the guy is with TK, Nox was literally defenseless and the guy proves it by shoving you effortlessly with it. Also the guy is a Sith Lord, he has superhuman reflexes and attributes and precognition. Nox beating him in sabers despite lacking the Force is a fantastic feat.
Originally posted by Selenial
Ah, so all you're arguing is that she's inferior in literally everything but won't die. That's really relevant in a team fight 👆
No, I'm arguing that Nox is superior to Wyyrlok and he's the weakest one here. Keep up.
Originally posted by Selenial
Cool. Jedi Krayt had a decent duel with Kenobi. Sith Krayt >>>> Son since he improved exponentially twice 🙂As for the army, since she didn't take them all on at the same time, I don't give a flying ****.
Hyuk hyuk, good one.
You know outside of video games people don't stare at you as you take out their buddies from across the room, right? And they can become aware of you without direct eye contact from 5 feet away? And can communicate and coordinate, right? Even when they're not in the same room?
Also nice job missing my point about Nox being able to beat a Sith Lord 5 minutes off of Korriban, which she arrived at as a slave with no combat experience or force mastery.
Originally posted by Selenial
There is no more reason for it to be a ritual you can defend against than it being a ritual you can't, without what Thanaton says. With what Thanaton says, it becomes remarkably clear. There are hundreds of rituals which we see no defense against, you see them all the time.To be honest, even if it's true that it's not a ritual, all that's proving is that Nox isn't as powerful with ghosts as you're suggesting, since Thanaton isn't some uber powerful Sith Lord eclipsing the rest of the council, in fact he's laughed at and considered one of the lowest among them...
No, it doesn't. You still haven't given a single shred of evidence to support this theory. Unless there's something to suggest standard defenses or ghost-powered defenses wouldn't work, you cannot claim it was an unblockable attack. This is the same shit you tried to pull when you said Wall of Light was unblockable and it's equally as retarded here. Also no there aren't hundred of rituals we see with no defense. Zannah blocked Bane's ritual with a standard barrier. I don't have to prove that force defenses can block a force attack. Exceptions have to be proven.
That's retarded logic. Instead of shitting on Nox, you should re-evaluate your placement of Thanaton (as well as the fellow Dark Councilors). He's stated to be "supremely powerful" for a reason. He's not considered a low Council member, Ravage is just a twit. His feat of one-shotting a ghost-amped Nox is incredible and all it does is support the notion that he's an underrated Sith. I said I doubted Wyyrlok was even above Thanaton for a reason. Maybe you should educate yourself, Legend makes a strong case for him.
(and spoiler alert, Thanaton WON that thread 😉 )
Originally posted by Selenial
Incorrect.
Um, what? No. She uses them freely. That's a fact. Have you actually played played the Inq storyline? Because I'm seriously doubting it considering your posts. I'd thought you'd done them all.
Originally posted by Selenial
You see, she uses the ghosts defensively numerous times before she explodes in a ball of rage that knocks her out. She's fine. Only when using them rampantly offensively does she ever experience issue, IE, when she unleashes all of their power at once, she can't control them. Then she finds out the ghosts are killing her without her even using them. All the previous ghost walkers died mysteriously, which indicates the ghosts will kill any host they're found in unless a solution is invented. That solution was the mother machine.Afterwards, she's no longer dying. Does she use the ghosts for a massive explosion that one shots Thanaton though? Does she use them to deflect his lightning? No. She uses them sparingly, because she still suffers the effects of excessive use. Just because they're not killing her slowly doesn't mean she's immune to every downside of the power 😬
She explodes because she's lost control of her power. That wasn't like, an attack she was doing. She didn't even manage to attempt an attack. Try actually looking at what you're talking about in the future:
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2.50
It's not an attack that she failed to replicate because her grasp of the power is lesser. When she exploded it was due to her poor control and precisely because she couldn't contain the power and it damaged her. Afterwards she's able to use it with control and ease. After she walks out of Thanaton's Force Storm she continues to use the ghosts power to dominate him. Again, how about you actually check your sources before you post:
6.06
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
These days, I'm in complete agreement that Wyyrlok > Thanaton. Heck, there's a Nox vs Wyyrlok argument going here, for fvck's sake.
Counterpoint: Thanaton can fly with lightning tho.
Also Thanaton ritual-pwning Nox is comparable to Wyyrlok, imo.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How is there a debate when everyone knows that being in TOR automatically makes you better?
Blasphemers have invaded the board.
