How powerful will HOT become?

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Actually, it undermines you: the same Codex that identifies Valkorion as Sith is also the one that says he wants to be unburdened by archaic Sith principles. Which means he doesn't go on to care less about the Sith, he doesn't care about them at all as of the entry's existence... and it still calls him one.

Seems that Beni missed your point as well, 'Strap:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Valkorion's mentality changes as the game progresses? Nah, Temp is on the money here.

Setting aside my skepticism that you actually have one to make, I invite you to clear the air.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do count Nihilus, because he's identified as Sith by sources that are a bit more authoritative than you or me. Just like Valk.

The fact that one bothered to change his party registration from Sith to Independent doesn't mean anything when neither of them claim any allegiance to it and one, Nihilus, never gave a shit to begin with.

I dunno man, you're making an awfully good case here. You're convincing me, nice job. 👆

Actually it does mean something. I means that Valkorion is no longer a member of the Sith Order. Also lol, Nihilus did claim allegiance to it. Hence why he was calling himself Darth Nihilus, trained a Sith apprentice, raised a legion of Sith followers, made a Sith holocron filled with Sith teachings up until the time he died. He was still a member of the Sith unlike Valkorion. God man, get a clue, you can't step to me on Kotor 2 shit. It just won't end well for you.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Valkorion's mentality changes as the game progresses? Nah, Temp is on the money here.

'Sup, Beefster.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I dunno man, you're making an awfully good case here. You're convincing me, nice job. 👆

Actually it does mean something. I means that Valkorion is no longer a member of the Sith Order. Also lol, Nihilus did claim allegiance to it. Hence why he was calling himself Darth Nihilus, trained a Sith apprentice, raised a legion of Sith followers, made a Sith holocron filled with Sith teachings up until the time he died. He was still a member of the Sith unlike Valkorion. God man, get a clue, you can't step to me on Kotor 2 shit. It just won't end well for you.

From the KOTOR Campaign Guide, page 160:

You'll notice this sentiment is expressed as early as his first interaction with Traya. Sounds like your comprehension of that shitty game is lacking, which is genuinely depressing when one considers how many years you've dedicated to its study. 😬

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Or you know, your information changes as the game progress like everyone else with two braincells to rub together. Information changes. Codex does not. You get now?

And yet the codex entry provides both critical pieces of information: Valkorion regards Sith principles as archaic and yet is still deemed an ancient Sith.

Nothing changes in this respect: not information and, consequently, not the codex.

Facebook? Lmfao, you get into the 21st century.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
From the KOTOR Campaign Guide, page 160:

You'll notice this sentiment is expressed as early as his first interaction with Traya. Sounds like your comprehension of that shitty game is lacking, which is genuinely depressing when one considers how many years you've dedicated to its study. 😬

He's still a member of the Sith Order though. You can be a member of an organisation/party without actually caring about their ideals. Trump proves that. Nihilus still joined the Sith, called himself a Sith and used their teachings even if he didn't care about them himself. Unlike Valkorion though, Nihilus didn't leave the Sith, they didn't turn their backs on him, he didn't create a new organisation opposed to them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet the codex entry provides both critical pieces of information: Valkorion regards Sith principles as archaic and yet is still deemed an ancient Sith.

The Sith Emperor.
A god like figure to the Sith
born a member of the Sith species
only know to you, at this point five years ago, as a Sith

Than the codex will be labeled as such, not meaning Valkorion is literally a member of the Sith order, like pretty much everyone else in game keeps telling you he isn't, including the player on a few occasions. He doesn't even use the Force in the same way a Sith does. But none of that matters because of one sentence in the beginning of a codex entry in a game you haven't even played, as far as I know. Not that it really matters. You've never really had a leg to stand on with this.

Nothing changes in this respect: not information and, consequently, not the codex.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's still a member of the Sith Order though. You can be a member of an organisation/party without actually caring about their ideals. Trump proves that. Nihilus still joined the Sith, called himself a Sith and used their teachings even if he didn't care about them himself. Unlike Valkorion though, Nihilus didn't leave the Sith, they didn't turn their backs on him, he didn't create a new organisation opposed to them.

And you don't think Valkoriate utilizes or employs anything Sith-related at all after ruling them for 14 centuries? lawl

Nihilus is still deemed a Sith even though he personally doesn't give a shit about them at all. Just like Valk. And unlike Valk, he never gave a shit about them from the very beginning. 👆

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
Sure, if we do like you done for over half a year now, and ignore context we could jump to these conclusions, but if we consider Valkorion was:

The Sith Emperor.
A god like figure to the Sith
born a member of the Sith species
only know to you, at this point five years ago, as a Sith

Than the codex will be labeled as such, not meaning Valkorion is literally a member of the Sith order, like pretty much everyone else in game keeps telling you he isn't, including the player on a few occasions. He doesn't even use the Force in the same way a Sith does. But none of that matters because of one sentence in the beginning of a codex entry in a game you haven't even played, as far as I know. Not that it really matters. You've never really had a leg to stand on with this.

Or we could read.

Funny how the entry on the Sith inquisitor mentions that he "was once a slave," yet Valkoriate's says he "is an ancient Sith" even though he's no longer a member of their government or biology.

You're free to ignore both precedent and the patently obvious. The fact that I haven't invested the same amount of time in the game as you have only serves to make your failure here all the more embarrassing.

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
What the hell are you even talking about? The codex never changes. Like every entry is static and will never modify ever.

What I'm talking about is the fact that the codex acknowledges Valkoriate's relationship with archaic Sith principles but still identifies him as Sith.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you don't think Valkoriate utilizes or employs anything Sith-related at all after ruling them for 14 centuries? lawl

Nihilus is still deemed a Sith even though he personally doesn't give a shit about them at all. Just like Valk. And unlike Valk, he never gave a shit about them from the very beginning. 👆

In the same way a former boxer still knows how to box, sure. He still isn't employed as a boxer anymore though.

Right, because he's still actually a Sith. Are you just not getting this? Should I make you a diagram with Sith and Not-Sith columns? Would that make this easier for you to understand?

Sith:

Nihilus was still a Sith. He never left the Sith Order. His private thoughts don't matter. He was still a member of the Sith Order.

Not-Sith:

Valkorion is not a Sith. He left the Sith Order. The Sith are trying to kill him and have renounced him of his throne and status. His personal thoughts also do not matter. What he says and does, does matter though. He says that he's not a Sith repeatedly. Other people say he's not a Sith repeatedly. He was leading the Knights of Zakuul and thus was a member of their order. He was not a member of the Sith Order.

This is as simple as I can make it for you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]Or we could read.

Funny how the entry on the Sith inquisitor mentions that he "was once a slave," yet Valkoriate's says he "is an ancient Sith" even though he's no longer a member of their government or biology.

You're free to ignore both precedent and the patently obvious. The fact that I haven't invested the same amount of time in the game as you have only serves to make your failure here all the more embarrassing.

What I'm talking about is the fact that the codex acknowledges Valkoriate's relationship with archaic Sith principles but still identifies him as Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the same way a former boxer still knows how to box, sure. He still isn't employed as a boxer anymore though.

Right, because he's still actually a Sith. Are you just not getting this? Should I make you a diagram with Sith and Not-Sith columns? Would that make this easier for you to understand?

Sith:

Nihilus was still a Sith. He never left the Sith Order. His private thoughts don't matter. He was still a member of the Sith Order.

Not-Sith:

Valkorion is not a Sith. He left the Sith Order. The Sith are trying to kill him and have renounced him of his throne and status. His personal thoughts also do not matter. What he says and does, does matter though. He says that he's not a Sith repeatedly. Other people say he's not a Sith repeatedly. He was leading the Knights of Zakuul and thus was a member of their order. He was not a member of the Sith Order.

This is as simple as I can make it for you.

'Facile' is a better description your post.

Here's a question that more accurately and economically captures your dilemma: Which character doesn't give a shit about the Sith as an organization and philosophy... and is yet still identified as one?

The correct answer is: both.

Both of them.

Yeah, I'm done humoring you now. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling me.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's a pretty good argument,

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
except I was talking abou their pressence on the Dark Council which no longer exists, not their life before the game even starts, lel.

Me

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
Actually, you being free to ignore the actual story presented by the game for one piece of background information in a sentence in one codex entry with context for new players just makes you look obtuse. You've readily admitted at this point you're just ignoring everything else because it doesn't suite your argument, as far as I'm concerned. I for one realize what the codex says, but i also understand it's purpose and acknowledge what it likely means given all the other information I've been given. You on the other hand plug your ears because nothing else supports you, which is childish.

An ironic accusation, coming from one whose entire agenda here is to trumpet Valkoriate.

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
No, it identifies him as a Sith entity, and given he was born a member of the sith species, was their emperor, and now an entity, it doesn't have to mean he's a member of the Sith Order or follows the Sith philosophy. Especially given all the evidence that says otherwise. And it will never change, regardless of what new information is given. Because that is how the codex works.

And given that Valkoriate is no longer a member of the species or government by the time of the codex entry, the fact that other codex entries acknowledge changing circumstances (e.g., Nox "once" being a slave), and ample precedent in the form of Nihilus and, to lesser extents, Bane and Tenebrous, I'd say your entire argument crumbles under anything approaching more than a passing glance.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Do you consider Darths Bane and Tenebrous Sith?

Same level of power? Setting aside his vastly superior combat skill, the consistently higher caliber of his opponents, and his deep studies of the Force in "all its guises throughout the galaxy," Sheev has manipulated the Force on planetary and galactic scales and is factually capable of employing it on a cosmic scale.

He accomplished all of that in the span of a single human lifetime and without liberal external aid. He's an infinitely more impressive figure, honestly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, people in the actual game say shit that contradicts the quote. Not quite the same thing.

Yeah, you're right. Valkorion obviously has the, "I am no Sith" "I am beyond light or dark" and "mastering the dark side isn't enough" quotes, along with Satele stating, "Valkorion's change within you is unprecedented. You'll never truly be Jedi or Sith." Along with the fact that unlike, say, Bane, Valkorion shits on sith teachings and created a force using order that draws on neither the light nor dark sides of the force. Furthermore, Satele and Marr imply that the only way to defeat the Eternal Empire etc is to move "beyond" mere light or dark. Not doing so is the reason the Eternal Empire dominated the Republic and Empire, because the former had a unique and superior philosophy, again according to Satele and Marr. All of which, imo, is more consistent evidence of Valkorion not being a mere dark sider/sith lord.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I employ many quotes, all of which you should be familiar with.

Other than Sidious consuming all of space?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm well aware that you want to avoid that embarrassing fact.

Sure.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really, no.

Besides which, even if that were all true, all of that is exponentially weaker than the ability to consume all of space in a Force storm. Palpatine is orders of magnitude more dangerous tbh.

You're right, my bad. Palpatine would casually oneshot the entire galaxy.

Originally posted by Sinious
but yeah, multiple force storms are still more haxx than Valk's abilities.

Valkorion's Spirit haxx >

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, you're right. Valkorion obviously has the, "I am no Sith" "I am beyond light or dark" and "mastering the dark side isn't enough" quotes, along with Satele stating, "Valkorion's change within you is unprecedented. You'll never truly be Jedi or Sith." Along with the fact that unlike, say, Bane, Valkorion shits on sith teachings and created a force using order that draws on neither the light nor dark sides of the force. Furthermore, Satele and Marr imply that the only way to defeat the Eternal Empire etc is to move "beyond" mere light or dark. Not doing so is the reason the Eternal Empire dominated the Republic and Empire, because the former had a unique and superior philosophy, again according to Satele and Marr. All of which, imo, is more consistent evidence of Valkorion not being a mere dark sider/sith lord.

Looks like you are back in the game. 😎