ROTS Sidious vs. Rebels Vader and Revan

Started by Syndicate6 pages

Good fight. Siding with team.

DE Sidious takes it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are you retarded? Of course it is.

Yeah, it probably won't be when he's in his early 40s. It's not with everybody else.

Less years than it took Valkorion. How the **** should I know? You still need knowledge to reach that potential. You don't just suddenly become more powerful.

Or you could just accept that no one cares about how you gauge anything.


You seem to be emotionally invested in this matter. Chill dude.

So your perception is that knowledge = power? It is true to an extent but not entirely.

Darth Vader needs to learn to harness his enormous potential; I don't think that he needs to learn a hundred techniques to harness his enormous potential. He just needs the right kind of knowledge for the said purpose.

Now, Darth Vader is shown visiting many places so if he has time to visit so many places, how come he doesn't finds sources of knowledge other then Palpatine's training that may help him grow further?

Regarding the time needed to realize true potential; Anakin Skywalker progressed from loosing to Count Dooku in Episode II to defeating Count Dooku in Episode III. The timeline between these two episodes would have been like 3 years? So Anakin's progress significantly slowed down in the later years?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You seem to be emotionally invested in this matter. Chill dude.

I didn't ask if you're retarded because I'm mad. I'm legitimately curious.

So your perception is that knowledge = power? It is true to an extent but not entirely.

It's flat out said in Rebels. it's common sense. You're about as wrong as can be.

Darth Vader needs to learn to harness his enormous potential; I don't think that he needs to learn a hundred techniques to harness his enormous potential. He just needs the right kind of knowledge for the said purpose.

No. He needs knowledge to help him access his power. He was born with as much power as he died with. That doesn't mean he could solo armies as a newborn. You assume knowledge doesn't help him access this power, and that's, again, the exact opposite of what Star Wars has argued.

Now, Darth Vader is shown visiting many places so if he has time to visit so many places, how come he doesn't finds sources of knowledge other then Palpatine's training that may help him grow further?

Like the holocron he was trying to get? Are you even paying attention to anything past 3637?

Regarding the time needed to realize true potential; Anakin Skywalker progressed from loosing to Count Dooku in Episode II to defeating Count Dooku in Episode III. The timeline between these two episodes would have been like 3 years? So Anakin's progress significantly slowed down in the later years?

He progressed significantly because he continued to train and gain knowledge, which was said in the TCW movie. He still had more to learn, including hundreds of years of Sith knowledge. I'm legit convinced you don't know what you're talking about. Stick to TOR.

I don't think Canon has addressed anything about Vader's potential. Just that he kept growing in power since ROTS. And he was already stupidly powerful by ROTS anyway.

His "Rate of growth" however may have declined. I.e. Without the injuries he may have been as powerful as his Rebels self by the time of LOTS or something. But it's not been addressed so I'm just speculating.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't have a problem with power progression of Darth Vader at personal capacity; I do have a problem with inconsistencies that the new revelation (that Darth Vader did not suffer loss of potential due to his injuries) will produce.

George Lucas did not envision Darth Vader as a top dog, he envisioned him as a man with flaws and limitations. According to him, Palpatine was the top dog. Lucas's justification for Darth Vader not being able to challenge Palpatine was that the former had suffered a loss of potential due to grave injuries. Lucas's story is about tragedy and redemption. Unfortunately, the writers are deviating from this gist and embracing Dragonballz path; they will ruin the original story in this manner.

Now that the canon writers seek to defy Lucas's perspective of the story, how would they justify Vader not managing to realize his true potential in a span of many years and overthrow Palpatine?

SWTOR is irrelevant in this case because it is not canon.

It's OK, I get it, proving Malgus is more powerful than Vader must be tough these days.

Malgus being < Vader changes literally nothing. 🙂

That's because it's always been the case. 🙂

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I don't think Canon has addressed anything about Vader's potential. Just that he kept growing in power since ROTS. And he was already stupidly powerful by ROTS anyway.

His "Rate of growth" however may have declined. I.e. Without the injuries he may have been as powerful as his Rebels self by the time of LOTS or something. But it's not been addressed so I'm just speculating.

Tbh Vader's connection to the Force having strengthened since ROTS (which could be inferred from Legends anyway) doesn't exactly preclude his overall potential having been cut.

I mean I find it unlikely that Disney would entirely disregard was is essentially a George Lucas concept. *shrug*

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I mean I find it unlikely that Disney would entirely disregard was is essentially a George Lucas concept. *shrug*

You mean like Vader and Ben being pieces of shit below the likes of TPM Maul and Qui-Gon?

Yeah that was his concept also.

mmm

This one is a bit more fundamental though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
mmm

This one is a bit more fundamental though.

What the actual **** Beni? How is Vader's potential more fundamental than his actual combative level?

Vader being better than virtually everyone from the PT era besides Yoda and Sidious is 180° against GL's intention. Vader's potential still being 200% of Sidious' or only 80% doesn't matter for shit as long as he doesn't reach it...

They're ignoring GL on the Vader shit because Vader's been viewed as an iconic badass for 30 years and he contradicted himself pretty explicitly with Dooku, Grievous, and TPM!Obi-Wan.

Which, to be fair to them, George isn't the most... consistent authority in the world.

That's an understatement.

Sidious dies

Let's be honest, the only real reason George ever insinuated Vader was meant to be a weak feeb was because of '70s choreography and stunt technology that he felt the need to justify creatively.

It's like, dude, it's OK to admit your shit was limited at the time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Let's be honest, the only real reason George ever insinuated Vader was meant to be a weak feeb was because of '70s choreography and stunt technology that he felt the need to justify creatively.

It's like, dude, it's OK to admit your shit was limited at the time.

Agreed tbh.

Also lel at LeG's rant about how making Vader more powerful is screwing up things.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Let's be honest, the only real reason George ever insinuated Vader was meant to be a weak feeb was because of '70s choreography and stunt technology that he felt the need to justify creatively.

It's like, dude, it's OK to admit your shit was limited at the time.

Yet everyone insist that Ben Kenobi is shit, while they made ANH Vader a god...

Yeah Disney chose to ignore some of Lucas's more inconsistent statements in favour of protecting the most Iconic villain in movie history. That's too big a jewel for Disney which they will protect.

Still I see nothing Disney has done contradicting the idea that Vader's full potential might have been hindered. After all that was still his and Palpatine's main interest in turning Luke right?

Imho Vader being hindered (in some ways) has a lot more to do with his psychological state rather than his physical one.

What the actual **** Beni? How is Vader's potential more fundamental than his actual combative level?

Vader being better than virtually everyone from the PT era besides Yoda and Sidious is 180° against GL's intention. Vader's potential still being 200% of Sidious' or only 80% doesn't matter for shit as long as he doesn't reach it...

Well first of all Lucas never implied Vader was weak, merely that he was slow and clunky.

And second of all its fundamental because it was the driving force behind Sidious choosing Luke over Vader (and Luke's ability to defeat Vader) as his new apprentice:

He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.

Which really ceases to make sense is Vader is every bit what Palpatine wanted, the literal Chosen One turned to the dark side.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Agreed tbh.

Also lel at LeG's rant about how making Vader more powerful is screwing up things.

Similar to Neph's rant, yes. Neither of them want Vader looking formidable because they're biased against the era.