Mage Battles

Prime versions without amps. Morals on & Force only, but lightsabers can be used to deflect Lightning.

1 - Karness Muur and Mother Talzin vs Exar Kun & Marka Ragnos, on Dathomir.

2 - Kyp Durron & Darth Vader & Starkiller vs Dread Masters, on Oricon.

3 - Leia Organa Solo & Nomi Sunider vs Darth Thanaton & Volfe Karkko, on Dantooine.

4 - Darth Traya & RotJ Darth Sidious vs Valkorion & Vaylin, in the Zakuul Throne Room.

5 - Freedon Nadd & Naga Sadow vs Darth Zannah & Darth Nox, on Odessen.

Senya isn't a mage. Vaylin would be a better fit.

I wanted Senya because she was older, but I've changed it to Vaylin. Thoughts now?

I don't know how Ragnos stacks up to Muur. And I'm not familiar enough with Volfe. If Traya can just drain Vaylin her and Sidious might be able to match Valkorion. I might have Nox beating Sadow and Zannah beating Nadd I guess.

The Dread Masters are too confusing to call.

Kreia and Sidious "might" be able to match Valkorion? That's... pretty generous for Valky there. With morals on, Kreia isn't instantly going for the Drain, though.

You couldn't guess how Ragnos stacks up to Muur?

For the Dread Masters, I deliberately put them up against telekinetic powerhouses who were mentally vulnerable.

Zannah beating Nadd? Interesting. Not sure if Nox beats Sadow either.

I have Valkorion as being significantly more powerful than Sidious these days.

Ragnos is said to be the most powerful of the most powerful but Muur was supposedly > Vader. Ragnos also lacks feats and evidence while Muur has some sick showings. But again, Ragnos was supposed to be like the ultimate ancient Sith. Ragnos might take it if he has his scepter.

Some say Vader can solo them. They should be powerful enough and numerous enough to take them down imo because the Masters are crazy bonkers in terms of feats and abilities. But y'know, maybe not.

Zannah has Nadd's knowledge and then some and is IMO more powerful than him. Sadow lacks feats, Nox is cool.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have Valkorion as being significantly more powerful than Sidious these days.

On the basis of showings? I don't think so.

Ragnos is said to be the most powerful of the most powerful but Muur was supposedly > Vader. Ragnos also lacks feats and evidence while Muur has some sick showings. But again, Ragnos was supposed to be like the ultimate ancient Sith.

Ragnos is supposed to be the most powerful up to his time, but I thought you guys don't take these quotes when Muur was invented afterwards (I think - he was certainly fleshed out afterwards).

Some say Vader can solo them. They should be powerful enough and numerous enough to take them down imo because the Masters are crazy bonkers in terms of feats and abilities.

You post your own opinion, not what some would say. It's up to them to show up and post their opinions. How easily do the Dread Masters win, then?

Zannah has Nadd's knowledge and then some and is IMO more powerful than him. Sadow lacks feats

Perhaps, but Nadd is probably more powerful and when it comes to applications of power, he has a more diversified and arguably more potent arsenal.

Sadow's more knowledgeable than Nox, tbh, and Barel Ovair was being driven insane just by being near Sadow's tomb for a while. Same guy who was Concealing his dark side signature in front of the entire Order ala Sidious, just with a weaker Jedi Order.

I'm just posting my own opinion. Valkorion's feats trump Sidious' by a mile imo. His lightning is vastly superior, he's so powerful someone like Revan couldn't budge a mere vassal of his power with TK, he shattered the Dark Temple while ridiculously weakened, he has > Dread Master TP and is arguably the greatest practitioner of the art, he casually stomped a Strike Team of the most powerful Jedi alive, he wiped Ziost out and grew massively from it. He also renders the Dread Masters insignificant in comparison, before he annihilated Ziost. Revan, Malgus and Arcann are bugs to him. Also it's mostly that Traya is woefully irrelevant.

I'm not willing to take a firm stand either way.

Not easily. I just don't think those 3 can handle the utter bullshit the Masters can collectively throw at them at any one time.

Like I said, I disagree that Nadd is more powerful. And how is he more diversified when Zannah has all his techniques and more?

And then Sadow lost to a minion of Vitiates who I doubt is > Nox. Sadow might be more knowledgeable but so was Thanaton. Ghost hax OP nerf plz.

Reading Ant try to explain the Dread Masters to the troglodytes on Comicvine honestly makes me feel pretty bad for him.

Derp Vader is immune to fear durr.

1. I know. I don't remember the part where Revan couldn't budge him. As for the Dark Temple, granted, and as for being better than the Dread Masters, granted, but those aren't really feats beyond Sidious' scope. I mean, he's dominated twenty billion minds on Byss with TP, and he could tear apart his office and the surrounding building (large enough to house Star Destroyers) "with a thought", and that was well before RotJ (years before ANH, if I recall). His Lightning has ripped apart miniature armies and turned Sith Wyrms to ash (this was well before RotS as well, and this is RotJ Palpatine). I don't see Vitiate's Lightning being vastly superior.

2. Alright.

3. Okay.

4. I said he's more diversified in what he's shown. And being vastly more powerful than Sadow is something I can't credit Zannah with.

5. He lost in a duel, and you can argue that he was stuck with some pretty poor circumstances. We're talking about raw power and in their primes, here. Also, according to The Dark Side Sourcebook, Sadow can channel Ghosts for his benefit.

1. Revan could barely budge an Imperial Guard drawing on Vitiates power. Vitiates own defenses, in his prime, would be vastly superior to that of a mere vassal drawing on his power. Personally I'm not sure if Sidious was in that position, being massive weakened, dying and depleted, that he'd be able to destroy the temple. Nor that the "combined power" of the Dread Masters are "insignificant" compared to him. That statement of his office is overhyped, I've seen it and the actual wording isn't that impressive. Destroying small armies isn't comparable to wiping out a small fleet of ships with the mere excess power of his lightning, which is stated to be weaker than his true power.

4. What has Nadd shown that you think would let him beat Zannah?

5. There won't be any ghosts for him to channel except Nox's and her control is absolute by the end of Act 3. Nox + 5 ghosts > Sadow in raw power.

That Imperial guard point is actually quite a good one.

Revan has some of the best TK in the mythos as well, so imo basically only Luke has a change of overpowering Vitiate in TK.

Or the Godlander.

1. It's not the wording I'm concerned about, it's the fact that the building can house Star Destroyers, which gives you an estimation of its size. Destroying it with a thought is unquestionably impressive. As for Lightning, I thought it was a few ships - that's not a "small fleet". I'd say casually ashifying a Sith wyrm decades before RotJ constitutes a rivalling feat.

Fair enough on the Imperial Guards. Regarding the Dread Masters, I'd say dominating the population of Byss in what appeared to be an easy feat puts him well above them in telepathy, and in other areas, he's vastly superior. So yeah, they are insignificant to him.

2. Well, as a weakened spirit who was dividing his power between Ommin and Amanoa, Nadd managed to collapse a tomb and restore everything in Kun's body, so I expect him to be highly proficient in both telekinesis and healing. He should be able to do pretty much everything that Ommin/Amanoa could do but on a vastly greater scale.

As far as how he'd win, I think being more powerful than Zannah and having things like Drain at his disposal count? And then there's always Wormhole 🙂

3. I know. I don't know why I mentioned Sadow channeling stuff, to be honest. That said, perhaps Nadd could fight Nox and Sadow Zannah?

Yet Revan knocked the actual Emperor, amped by a nexus, on his ass mmm.

And is Valkorion's Force lightning really vastly superior to a Force storm?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet Revan knocked the actual Emperor, amped by a nexus, on his ass mmm.

And is Valkorion's Force lightning really vastly superior to a Force storm?

With most of Vitiates power directed elsewhere and not expecting the attack.

Palpatine's Force Storms are wormholes, not lightning. So not really comparable.

He did summon a weather storm through a holoprojector prior to RotS. And in the LotJ series, a weather storm comes by as soon as Sidious gets angry. And it was the type of anger that he was still capable of holding in.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With most of Vitiates power directed elsewhere and not expecting the attack.

Palpatine's Force Storms are wormholes, not lightning. So not really comparable.

So I'd say they are comparable, the basic principles of channeling your anger and hate into energy are the same.

Altogether is a level of destructive power that Valkorion has not anywhere vastly surpassed.

Hmm, it is worth noting that while he hadn't perfected his control over them by this time, Sidious could still conjure Force Storms. If he's not capable of winning without them, it stands to reason that he'd fall back on them as a last resort.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. It's not the wording I'm concerned about, it's the fact that the building can house Star Destroyers, which gives you an estimation of its size. Destroying it with a thought is unquestionably impressive. As for Lightning, I thought it was a few ships - that's not a "small fleet". I'd say casually ashifying a Sith wyrm decades before RotJ constitutes a rivalling feat.

Fair enough on the Imperial Guards. Regarding the Dread Masters, I'd say dominating the population of Byss in what appeared to be an easy feat puts him well above them in telepathy, and in other areas, he's vastly superior. So yeah, they are insignificant to him.

2. Well, as a weakened spirit who was dividing his power between Ommin and Amanoa, Nadd managed to collapse a tomb and restore everything in Kun's body, so I expect him to be highly proficient in both telekinesis and healing. He should be able to do pretty much everything that Ommin/Amanoa could do but on a vastly greater scale.

As far as how he'd win, I think being more powerful than Zannah and having things like Drain at his disposal count? And then there's always Wormhole 🙂

3. I know. I don't know why I mentioned Sadow channeling stuff, to be honest. That said, perhaps Nadd could fight Nox and Sadow Zannah?

1. No, I mean that he can't actually destroy the building and the quote doesn't suggest that. I've already proven this and people have acknowledged it. A few ships is a small fleet. Lol, ashing a wyrm isn't comparable to ****ing up dozens of starships with the mere excess lightning spilling off of your main attack. Nyriss ashing herself through her defenses >>> ashing a wyrm and Vitiate was stated to be infinitely greater than that attack.

Dominating Byss over an unknown period of time using unknown methods doesn't mean shit. The Dread Masters dominated legions of Jedi and Sith into incurable insanity to be their planetary armies. And just being better than someone doesn't make them insignificant.

2. TK and healing won't help him beat Zannah. And like I said, Zannah has Nadd's holocron and more so why should he be pulling off things that she can't?

Well he isn't more powerful so that won't help him. And drain won't help him either, it's hardly some trump card against someone like Zannah. Nadd's never used wormhole in combat nor has anyone really.

So how is Nadd going to beat Zannah's mental attack? His will isn't near as strong as Bane's.

3. Maybe. And once Zannah crushes Sadow, she can help Nox pwn Nadd. 👆