Mage Battles

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are assuming best case scenario for Palpatine, I do not dismiss the possibility. But there is one problem; how Palpatine would aim for disembodied Valkorion?

You can sense the essence, you know.

You cannot attack what you cannot see. This is why Jedi and Sith were unable to do anything about Valkorion on Ziost. 🙂

As far as I know, Vitate's essence could be perceived, it's just that nobody in the TOR era had the powers to affect an essence. That's not the case here.

😕

???

Surely you are aware of how Vitiate's Voices work? He infuses part of his essence into them, which he can call upon at any time or distance in the future.

Telekinesis is not my point. My point is that Valkorion retains many abilities in disembodied form, he is also capable of affecting other spirits (possibly even consume them or dispatch them to the void). There are already rumors that Valkorion did something to Darth Marr's Force ghost for example; possibly consumed him and then took his form to manipulate the Outlander.

Are the rumors substantiated at all?

Therein lies the problem, my friend.

You understand the events in the game better when you play it.

Of course I will, but I just don't fancy spending time or money on TOR anymore. Besides, if I'm missing anything, I trust you'll correct me, and then I'll investigate the issue again.

What do you think a Voice is? A possessed host.

What do you think Children are? Extensions of will.

Valkorion was essentially an "essence" during the events of SWTOR. Voices and Children were secondary stuff; they collectively expanded his reach across the galaxy.

Except they're physical forms - this isn't hard to understand.

What I find rather interesting is that you're willing to treat Voices and Children not as possessed bodies but a reflection of what Vitiate can do as a disembodied essence. Why, then, are Palpatine's clones not treated in the same way? After all, Palpatine was more of an energy being than a physical being by DE (before, in fact), just like Valkorion. Their forms of possession and existences as an essence are identical, other than the fact that Vitiate is the beneficiary of having imparted part of his essence into his children. His Voice works the same way that Palpatine's clones do, except they can actually withstand his power, whereas Palpatine's clones couldn't.

He could not resist the pull of the void for indefinite period. This is why he was in search of corporeal vessels.

But he could will himself back from the void, and he was only permanently defeated when every Jedi spirit prevented him from ever leaving the netherworld.

Brand "assumed" that every Jedi spirit would assist him in taking down Palpatine's essence. We don't actually see Jedi spirits manifesting and helping Brand towards this end.

You're implying that it's an empty assumption, which is a ridiculous implication, and you know it's ridiculous. Brand said this with utter certainty and he wouldn't say it unless he was absolutely sure that it was the case.

Several (neutral) sources including a few DE sources credit only Jedi Brand for vanquishing Palpatine's essence.

Brand was responsible for bringing Palpatine's essence into the void, because when he died, Palpatine did with him. Brand wasn't responsible for permanently annihilating Palpatine - that was something that he accomplished with the aid of every other Jedi that had gone before.

I find your assessment problematic.

Valkorion can affect other Force ghosts; examples provided above. Should he attempt to dispatch a lingering essence back to void, I don't see why he cannot do that with his powers or certain techniques.

Having read through your thread, I didn't find examples of him banishing essences into the void. I noticed he can affect the physical realm, but that's not going to banish Palpatine's essence into the void.

CIP: Exar Kun destroyed Freedon Nadd's Force ghost with Force blasts. Ergo, weaken them enough and they won't be able to resist the pull of void.

It's just too bad that Palpatine is more powerful than Freedon Nadd and has far greater willpower, isn't it? Not a comparable example.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He can, because he's made personal-sized Wormholes before.

Actually no, you haven't proven that yet. Your quote says that Sidious used a technique the Sith Lords granted him years ago, yet Sidious worked out Force Storm by himself. Fold Space or some other kind of teleport seems like a more concrete explanation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds like you're getting desperate here and trying to discredit a perfectly canonical source.

"Gamer" doesn't sound like a Star Wars license. I'm just trying to verify that it is one.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, suggesting he can't when all it take is a mere "wilful inclination" is ridiculous, and you know it's ridiculous.

Cool concession. So you admit that he's never done it in combat just like I said. Nice! 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, you dumbass, he made it small enough to fit within the shaft and not affect his surroundings. That, and he did this as a weakened, disembodied spirit. Not indicative of what he could do in the flesh.

Also, he claims that his Force Storms are "vastly destructive", can "shatter the fabric of space", "swallow armies", "fold space", etc. I assume this stuff would be harder for him to control, but he doesn't need to swallow armies here.

Why? Wouldn't he want to kill Luke and Vader? This purely hypothetical mini-Force Storm you're talking about has a completely unknown destructive capacity. You cannot possibly say that it's powerful enough to destroy Valkorion. Obviously it wouldn't be capable swallowing armies or anything, it didn't affect the surroundings or the nearby Luke and Vader. Saying "well he didn't want to" means jack shit. He didn't, so he can't. It's up to you to prove that a miniscule version of the technique holds any destructive power at all. That it has enough potency to suck in and destroy anything.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine isn't trying to devour an entire fleet or moon here. He only needs to summon a small one on Valkorion. That won't take much time - considering the one in RotJ was instantaneous.

Which is why he used one to kill Vader. And Luke. And literally no one ever. He didn't use one in RotJ, you haven't proven that yet.

When he summoned the Force Storm in DE "all his hatred [was] funneled into the Death Storm" such that he was unable to defend himself from the Skywalkers attack. Valkorion will annihilate him at the slightest chance. If Sidious could have used a small Force Storm as an attack, he'd have done it to the Skywalkers actively attacking him instead of the fleet.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Wormholes affect the physical, but they're not physical themselves. They're holes in space, in other words, holes in the physical. Barriers being able to defend against holes in the space-time continuum (ie. holes in reality itself) is incredibly suspect and extremely unlikely.

The wormholes destructive power lies in it's ability to suck up the nearby surroundings and rend them apart with with the massive forces its exhibits. A barrier would allow you to resist the pull of the wormhole, the force intending to pull you in and rend you apart.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate can traverse space in disembodied form but he may prefer to Teleport himself to a distant location. For example, Vitiate teleported himself to Ziost from Yavin 4.

I thought Vitiate did this when he consumed various energies to empower himself. And even provided that Sidious can't win via BFR, it's a stalemate.

Vitiate consumed those energies to return to his normal power, and he was still evidently far weaker than he would become after draining Ziost. Sidious obviously can't BFR Valkorion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually no, you haven't proven that yet. Your quote says that Sidious used a technique the Sith Lords granted him years ago, yet Sidious worked out Force Storm by himself. Fold Space or some other kind of teleport seems like a more concrete explanation.

That doesn't say he used a technique from Sith Lords, just that the technique he used was based on knowledge from those Sith Lords. You can make a technique yourself, but use knowledge from other Sith Lords to help yourself in doing so.

"Gamer" doesn't sound like a Star Wars license. I'm just trying to verify that it is one.

Alright, whatever. But it's a perfectly valid source.

Cool concession. So you admit that he's never done it in combat just like I said. Nice! 👆

I can concede that he hasn't shown it while he's dueling someone else, but if he isn't concentrating his energies on something else, he can summon one instantly, as he's shown.

Why? Wouldn't he want to kill Luke and Vader? This purely hypothetical mini-Force Storm you're talking about has a completely unknown destructive capacity. You cannot possibly say that it's powerful enough to destroy Valkorion. Obviously it wouldn't be capable swallowing armies or anything, it didn't affect the surroundings or the nearby Luke and Vader. Saying "well he didn't want to" means jack shit. He didn't, so he can't. It's up to you to prove that a miniscule version of the technique holds any destructive power at all. That it has enough potency to suck in and destroy anything.

Forget what I said about him choosing not to. But as a disembodied essence that had just died, his power would naturally be significantly decreased.

When he summoned the Force Storm in DE "all his hatred [was] funneled into the Death Storm" such that he was unable to defend himself from the Skywalkers attack. Valkorion will annihilate him at the slightest chance. If Sidious could have used a small Force Storm as an attack, he'd have done it to the Skywalkers actively attacking him instead of the fleet.

He was trying to show his power by annihilating the fleet, lol. And again, he's using a smaller Wormhole here, so it won't be the same level of difficulty to control.

The wormholes destructive power lies in it's ability to suck up the nearby surroundings and rend them apart with with the massive forces its exhibits. A barrier would allow you to resist the pull of the wormhole, the force intending to pull you in and rend you apart.

That'd work if Palpatine summoned a Wormhole from afar and it was approaching Valkorion, but if the area around Valkorion is already turned into a hole in space, I'm not seeing Barrier being a saving grace.

Just responding to the other stuff:

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. No, I mean that he can't actually destroy the building and the quote doesn't suggest that.

With a thought, he can destroy the office/throne room (which is huge), and he can "crack the foundations of the building and rain rubble down on people below". Even if that's not complete destruction, it's good enough, considering the absolutely mammoth size of the building.

A few ships is a small fleet.

A very, very, very small fleet.

Lol, ashing a wyrm isn't comparable to ****ing up dozens of starships with the mere excess lightning spilling off of your main attack.

From what I could see, the most his Lightning did was ignite an engine or two and kill the crew inside/jam controls, making them lose control of the ships to blow themselves up. Not like you're making it out to be, and he wasn't doing that to dozens of starships either.

Nyriss ashing herself through her defenses >>> ashing a wyrm and Vitiate was stated to be infinitely greater than that attack.

Not really, and Sidious did it casually, decades before RotJ.

More importantly, Sidious has overwhelmed Yoda's defenses with Lightning so powerful that Yoda thought walking against it was "like walking against hurricane winds". Again, decades before RotJ.

I know you're going to say that Yoda had difficulty absorbing Dooku's Lightning, but recent sources have retconned that to Yoda easily absorbing the Lightning (Dooku's killed Ventress with it while he was gravely injured) and is canonically more powerful than Revan, who laughed off Nyriss' attack with his powers impaired.

Dominating Byss over an unknown period of time using unknown methods doesn't mean shit.

But the Dread Masters entering trances on immeasurably powerful DS nexuses to enact their fodder-dominating powers does?

Also, Sidious's mere presence on Byss for (I believe a few years, I'll have to check) turned the planet into one of the most powerful DS nexuses in history.

The Dread Masters dominated legions of Jedi and Sith into incurable insanity to be their planetary armies.

Dominating legions of fodder Jedi/Sith on an "immeasurably powerful" DS nexus and with ritualistic powers doesn't strike me as superior to what Palpatine has done.

And just being better than someone doesn't make them insignificant.

But being vastly above them does. Besides, there's always Palpatine being canonically more powerful than Vitiate, who is more powerful than them.... 😄

2. TK and healing won't help him beat Zannah.

If he's more powerful, Force Blasts and TK will be giving him the win. He also has Drain.

And like I said, Zannah has Nadd's holocron and more so why should he be pulling off things that she can't?

When did Nadd make his holocron? I'm asking because the likes of Bane and Naga Sadow made their holocrons before they reached the peak of their knowledge - Bane made his while he had the Orbalisks, and Sadow made his before the Great Hyperspace War.

Well he isn't more powerful so that won't help him.

Being vastly more powerful than Sadow and comparable to the likes of Ragnos/Muur puts him above Zannah, yeah.

And drain won't help him either, it's hardly some trump card against someone like Zannah.

It isn't an instant win, but it's a definite advantage.

Nadd's never used wormhole in combat nor has anyone really.

I was kidding, obviously.

So how is Nadd going to beat Zannah's mental attack? His will isn't near as strong as Bane's.

Well, that depends on how powerful we take his will to be, what his fears are, etc. Besides, Nadd can enact the same attack on Zannah, can he not?

3. Maybe. And once Zannah crushes Sadow, she can help Nox pwn Nadd. 👆

Zannah crushing anyone immediately is a bit suspect.

Also, I don't see Thanaton overwhelming either Leia or Nomi, tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You can sense the essence, you know.

Vitiate can choose to reveal his disembodied presence to someone (chapter 12 of KoTFE) and not to (Ziost and chapter 12 of KoTFE). Vitiate is more then a mere spirit (he is an immortal entity). Continue to read below.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As far as I know, Vitate's essence could be perceived, it's just that nobody in the TOR era had the powers to affect an essence. That's not the case here.

This was the assessment of Darth Marr when he felt that Ziost was lost cause:

This is most distressing. Vitiate may be more powerful then any of us assumed. And as he does not appear to have any manner of physical form, he cannot be restrained or destroyed by conventional means.

After the events of Ziost, Darth Marr hired some powerful Sith seers to get a fix on the disembodied presence of Vitiate:

The Empire's highest ranking officers and dignitaries are now in a state of heightened alert, and the Dark Council has assembled a contingent of powerful Sith seers to get a fix on the Emperor's presence.

Taken from SWTOR

- but to no avail.

Keep in mind that Vitiate is extremely good in the use of Force-concealment and similar applications. He managed to conceal the identity of his Children - embedded within the Jedi Order and the Republic through the First Son - for a long time. Vitiate also suppressed Force-sensitivity of Vaylin for a long time. It was when the First Son was vanquished and the Voice was struck down when Vitiate's concealment efforts came to an end.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Surely you are aware of how Vitiate's Voices work? He infuses part of his essence into them, which he can call upon at any time or distance in the future.

Vitiate's Voice is a vessel that he personally possesses. Vitiate's Children represent 'extensions' of his will.

Vitiate essentially multi-tasked with Voices and Children. But there was one Voice at a time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Are the rumors substantiated at all?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Of course I will, but I just don't fancy spending time or money on TOR anymore. Besides, if I'm missing anything, I trust you'll correct me, and then I'll investigate the issue again.

I am updating my blogs about Valkorion with latest information. I will keep you and others informed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except they're physical forms - this isn't hard to understand.

What I find rather interesting is that you're willing to treat Voices and Children not as possessed bodies but a reflection of what Vitiate can do as a disembodied essence. Why, then, are Palpatine's clones not treated in the same way? After all, Palpatine was more of an energy being than a physical being by DE (before, in fact), just like Valkorion. Their forms of possession and existences as an essence are identical, other than the fact that Vitiate is the beneficiary of having imparted part of his essence into his children. His Voice works the same way that Palpatine's clones do, except they can actually withstand his power, whereas Palpatine's clones couldn't.

My point is that Vitiate evolved into a disembodied being and began to use other individuals as vessels (Voice) and extensions of his will (Children) at some point after the events of Revan. This is how he increased his safeguard against external threats. Earlier, he had corporeal immortality.

Vitiate's relationship with a Voice is same as Palpatine's relationship was with a cloned body. I perceive both of these occurrences as similar in nature. We are on the same page here.

But the key difference is that Vitiate could manifest his powers in both corporeal and disembodied forms. In contrast, Palpatine could manifest his powers only in corporeal form.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But he could will himself back from the void, and he was only permanently defeated when every Jedi spirit prevented him from ever leaving the netherworld.

The Emperor continued his galaxy gun attacks but it was becoming more and more obvious that his cloned body would not live much longer. Without a new body he would be resigned to utter madness beyond death.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

I have covered this matter in detail in my blog. Perhaps you have not read it properly or just skimmed through it.

---

Sith spirits, that continue to manifest in the physical realm, tend to anchor themselves to places strong in the Dark Side or to an artifact. They cannot manifest anywhere in the galaxy at will. They have significant limitations.

Once a Sith spirit or essence is banished into the void, it can never return to physical realm afterwards; it is gone forever. This is what happened to Freedon Nadd.

Palpatine wasn't an exception to the aforementioned ground reality.

---

Regarding the (inferred) role of Jedi spirits in containing Palpatine's essence; here is a revelation:

His body mortally wounded by Han Solo, Palpatine tracked down the Solos and desperately sought to transfer his fading essence to the infant Anakin Solo. He was blocked and absorbed by the dying Jedi, Brand, who promised that he and all the other Jedi spirits would ensure the dark sider never returned—a fate Palpatine had feared above all others. The Emperor's reign was over for good.

Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #120

As I pointed out to you, that was Brand's belief. Not an actual development.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're implying that it's an empty assumption, which is a ridiculous implication, and you know it's ridiculous. Brand said this with utter certainty and he wouldn't say it unless he was absolutely sure that it was the case.

You are taking a thought at face value and ignorning neutral observations of the deed in question. This is not the right thing to do.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Brand was responsible for bringing Palpatine's essence into the void, because when he died, Palpatine did with him. Brand wasn't responsible for permanently annihilating Palpatine - that was something that he accomplished with the aid of every other Jedi that had gone before.

Palpatine was the victim of circumstances (intercepted by a 'dying' Jedi); the host's death sealed his fate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Having read through your thread, I didn't find examples of him banishing essences into the void. I noticed he can affect the physical realm, but that's not going to banish Palpatine's essence into the void.

Palpatine's essence within the physical realm is a manifestation of energy. It could be affected just like any other Sith spirit.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's just too bad that Palpatine is more powerful than Freedon Nadd and has far greater willpower, isn't it? Not a comparable example.

Freedon Nadd's example should tell you that Sith spirits are absolutely vulnerable to Force powers and can be affected.

Isn't there a letter you recieve after using Valkorions power to defeat Arcann where Lana tells you how many people it killed? And it was some stupid high number? I tried looking for it but I must have already deleted it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, I don't see Thanaton overwhelming either Leia or Nomi, tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not? What defenses do they have against his sorcery?

Incredible willpower? Anti-DS powers? Also, it seems like Thanaton falls back on traditional powers moreso than Sorcery.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't there a letter you recieve after using Valkorions power to defeat Arcann where Lana tells you how many people it killed? And it was some stupid high number? I tried looking for it but I must have already deleted it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Incredible willpower? Anti-DS powers? Also, it seems like Thanaton falls back on traditional powers moreso than Sorcery.

That post is too long for me to quote. I'll have to do this the long way, then:

That depends upon how the essence manifests itself.

Valkorion can choose to reveal his disembodied presence (chapter 12 of KoTFE) and not to (Ziost and chapter 12 of KoTFE). Continue to read below.

Palpatine's Force Sense far outstrips that of any Force user in KotFE.

They were aware of Vitiate's presence through his actions only.

They were, but Palpatine is far more capable than them when it comes to Sense.

Yes and No.

Vitiate's Voice is a vessel that he personally possesses. Vitiate's Children represent 'extensions' of his will (Vitiate infused a part of his essence in each Child).

Vitiate essentially multi-tasked with Voices and Children. But there was one Voice at a time.

Sorry, I meant "Children", not "Voice".

You are wrong about this. Palpatine willed himself to retain his identity right after experiencing his corporeal demise but he was vulnerable to the pull of the Void and could not resist its pull forever. This is why he sought a corporeal vessel:

I've read your blog enough to know that it sorely lacks contextual support. But that's discussion for another day - the posts in this thread are long enough as they are.

By the way, your quote doesn't say anything I didn't know. "Resigned to the madness beyond death" is anything different to the "maddening, bodiless existence of the void" that Palpatine escaped by sheer force of will.

Once a Sith spirit or essence is banished into the void, it can never return to physical realm afterwards; it is gone forever. This is what happened to Freedon Nadd.

Palpatine wasn't an exception to the aforementioned ground reality.

I don't need tutoring in what Sith spirits are or what their limitations are. And yes, Palpatine was an exception - that's why there's such a big deal about him escaping chaos by virtue of sheer will. It's because nobody else could do that.

As I pointed out to you, that was Brand's belief. Not an actual development.

That doesn't discredit it at all. It just repeats what Brand said in third-person perspective, and doesn't say whether or not the promise was proven false. Again, you're suggesting that the promise was empty, which is laughable. You're in denial now.

See above.

You are taking a thought at face value and ignorning neutral observations of the deed in question. This is not the right thing to do.

A "thought"? Why would Brand promise something (with such stakes) if he didn't know it was going to happen?

Please use your head. Every time this happened in the past with Palpatine's physical form being destroyed, his spirit wasn't vanquished permanently. He even escaped chaos by himself. The fact that Palpatine never made it out again, despite the fact that he has done so before, is because every other Jedi spirit in existence prevented him from doing so. Otherwise, he'd just escape by sheer will again.

Brand's death banished Palpatine's essence into the void. Palpatine could never return afterwards. You need to correct your knowledge.

Please don't try to correct me on DE. And Sidious has escaped from chaos before, as I have repeatedly cited (and as you have repeatedly ignored, even after putting the quote in your blog). That's the point - Brand's death, in of itself, would never finish off Sidious like that. Sidious has escaped the void

Palpatine was the victim of circumstances (intercepted by a 'dying' Jedi); the host's death sealed his fate.

Palpatine's host has died more than once before this - never once was his fate automatically ended as a result. The same goes for Vitiate. And there are other examples, too. Naga Sadow possessed Eison Gynt - when Gynt was slain, Sadow's spirit wasn't permanently killed, as it appears again in TOR.

I did not cover this part in it. I will wait for KoTFE story arc to complete before I make further judgment in this regard.

Palpatine's essence within the physical realm is a manifestation of energy. It could be affected just like any other Sith spirit.

So can Valkorion's. And before you re-cite all those Marr quotes again, nobody from TOR could influence spirits. That's not the case here.

Again, Palpatine's powers in corporeal form are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I never made mention of his corporeal powers. He's an energy being at his core. But the fact that he's canonically more powerful than any Sith Lord in history is relevant - because he retains that power as an essence, it's just that he can't use it effectively.

Freedon Nadd's example should tell you that Sith spirits are absolutely vulnerable to Force powers and can be affected.

If only you applied that standard to Valkorion. And Palpatine is the exception, so no, Nadd's example doesn't tell me anything.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine's Force Sense far outstrips that of any Force user in KotFE.

Palpatine's powers are not infallible.

Example 1:

But in failing to foresee Luke's defiance, the Emperor reveals that his own powers are infallible, and a wounded Vader realizes Palpatine can be destroyed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Example 2:

But Palpatine could not foresee the strength of the Light Side as Leia finally got through to her brother and pulled him out of darkness.

Taken from Dark Empire Hand Book # 3

The aforementioned examples represent failure of precognition. I am sure there would be more but I came across these two so far.

Even Yoda - whose connection with the Force was greater than most - didn't had infallible Force sense and precognition. He failed to recognize Palpatine as the Sith Lord Darth Sidious just like every other Jedi of his era until it was too late.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They were, but Palpatine is far more capable than them when it comes to Sense.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sorry, I meant "Children", not "Voice".

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've read your blog enough to know that it sorely lacks contextual support. But that's discussion for another day - the posts in this thread are long enough as they are.

I know that you don't have a counterargument for it. Nobody has.

Originally posted by SunRazer
By the way, your quote doesn't say anything I didn't know. "Resigned to the madness beyond death" is anything different to the "maddening, bodiless existence of the void" that Palpatine escaped by sheer force of will.

However, what you are not realizing is the fact that it is really difficult for a Sith spirit to retain its presence in the 'physical realm' because the pull of void is always bearing down on them. Therefore, they tend to anchor themselves to regions strong in the Dark Side or artifacts to counter the continuous pull of the void. Palpatine was not an exception to this rule either; he knew that he could not resist the pull of void forever. This is why he was in search of corporeal vessels. Your assumption that Palpatine could do it again and again is unfounded and baseless.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't need tutoring in what Sith spirits are or what their limitations are. And yes, Palpatine was an exception - that's why there's such a big deal about him escaping chaos by virtue of sheer will. It's because nobody else could do that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That doesn't discredit it at all. It just repeats what Brand said in third-person perspective, and doesn't say whether or not the promise was proven false. Again, you're suggesting that the promise was empty, which is laughable. You're in denial now.

I am not in denial, I do not take belief and thoughts at face value like you. Not without context.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A "thought"? Why would Brand promise something (with such stakes) if he didn't know it was going to happen?

Please use your head. Every time this happened in the past with Palpatine's physical form being destroyed, his spirit wasn't vanquished permanently. He even escaped chaos by himself. The fact that Palpatine never made it out again, despite the fact that he has done so before, is because every other Jedi spirit in existence prevented him from doing so. Otherwise, he'd just escape by sheer will again.

Palpatine's essence was never intercepted by a dying Jedi before. Palpatine would shed a decaying clone and shift his essence to another without experiencing any resistance (safest approach for Essence Transfer). There is significant difference between the two cases.

And Palpatine could not escape the void (again). This was a one-time occurrence as is the case with any Sith spirit. See above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Please don't try to correct me on DE. And Sidious has escaped from chaos before, as I have repeatedly cited (and as you have repeatedly ignored, even after putting the quote in your blog). That's the point - Brand's death, in of itself, would never finish off Sidious like that. Sidious has escaped the void

Brand's death sealed the fate of Palpatine. My point is confirmed in several sources:

But as his spirit rose from his body and shot towards the defenseless child, the Jedi Empatojayos Brand, mortally wounded during the battle, intercepted it and took Palpatine within himself. As Brand died, he took Palpatine with him, and the once-great Emperor of a million worlds was no more.

From Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--

As the Emperor fell towards death yet again, he attempted to send his spirit into the baby Anakin - but Empatojayos Brand intercepted the dark essence. Clasping himself to the light, Brand held the Emperor's presence within his body as they both succumbed to death.

With all of his clones destroyed, Emperor Palpatine was finally defeated.

From Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

--

Before his soul could enter Anakin's body, Palpatine was intercepted by a newfound Jedi Empatojayos Brand. Cut off from host body, Palpatine's essence dissipated, to be consumed by madness that was the Dark Side. After so many decades of bloodshed, the Emperor was truly dead.

From The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The aforementioned sources are wrong? Or you pick and choose among the revelations?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine's host has died more than once before this - never once was his fate automatically ended as a result. The same goes for Vitiate. And there are other examples, too. Naga Sadow possessed Eison Gynt - when Gynt was slain, Sadow's spirit wasn't permanently killed, as it appears again in TOR.

Naga Sadow was a Sith Sorcerer and might have made arrangements for anchoring his essence in more than one place that was strong in the Dark Side. Sadow possessed Jedi padawan Gynt in his own Tomb on Korriban but there is no official confirmation of Sadow's return after his host was slain.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So can Valkorion's. And before you re-cite all those Marr quotes again, nobody from TOR could influence spirits. That's not the case here.

Nobody from TOR could influence Sith spirits? Have you played the story of Sith Inquisitor? Don't make silly assumptions.

Barsen'thor III also demonstrated the capability to exorcise a possessed host; Lord Vivicar. This is Light Side option.

In Dark Side option, you can kill Lord Vivicar in-order-to banish the Sith Spirit of Terrak Morrhage to the void (permanently) but this action results in the deaths of all Jedi who were under influence of Lord Vivicar.

"Kill me, and you will kill every Master I have infected. Every one! Shielded or not, they are still bound to me." (Lord Vivicar)

Originally posted by SunRazer
I never made mention of his corporeal powers. He's an energy being at his core. But the fact that he's canonically more powerful than any Sith Lord in history is relevant - because he retains that power as an essence, it's just that he can't use it effectively.

The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years.

From Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Originally posted by SunRazer
If only you applied that standard to Valkorion. And Palpatine is the exception, so no, Nadd's example doesn't tell me anything.

Again, the quoting system is effed. But we're repeating ourselves by debating the same points over and over in different areas. I'm going to address them individually once, and only once.

Palpatine's Foresight failed him, and Yoda couldn't Sense Palpatine's Sith Nature.

These aren't comparable examples. Foresight isn't the same as Force Sense at all, given that Sidious completely managed to sense Luke's emotions, inner thoughts, memories, etc.

As for Yoda, the Dark Side clouds the vision of Jedi, not the Sith. Sidious isn't going to be affected by a dark side shroud.

I know that you don't have a counterargument for it. Nobody has.

If that's what you believe, then so be it. I'm not going to deny that it's founded on facts, but you make some outlandish claims there. But as I said, this is discussion for something else, so don't tempt me into further discussion of this.

Brand's belief wasn't verified, and I don't take thoughts at face value like you.

It's not a thought, it's a statement. Why would Brand make it up? The fact that you took Marr's claims of Vitiate not being able to be destroyed or contained in complete faith but were unwilling to extend the same courtesy to Brand's statement is proof of your confirmation bias. These are all character statements, all the same. Kindly desist with the double standards.

Brand's death sealed Palpatine's fate.

Yes, I know that. When Brand died, Palpatine died with him. I'm not disputing this. I'm saying that every Jedi spirit that ever existed was required to prevent Palpatine's return.

Palpatine shifted his essence to a fresh clone from a decaying one when he felt it necessary. Don't twist the facts.

I'm not twisting any facts. Palpatine has died before, his essence has been cast into the Void before, and he's escaped it before.

Naga Sadow was a Sith Sorcerer and might have made arrangements for anchoring his essence in more than one place that was strong in the Dark Side. Sadow possessed Jedi padawan Gynt in his own Tomb on Korriban but there is no official confirmation of Sadow's return after his host was slain.

I don't know what you're talking about. You seem to be willing to make wild speculations to support yourself if your view is threatened, but you're not willing to allow others to do the same and berate others for having anything that isn't repeatedly supported by more than one source, because apparently one source isn't enough. Once again, lose the double standards.

Sadow's spirit appears again in TOR. That's not supposed to be possible if his host was killed, according to you.

Nobody from TOR could influence Sith spirits? Have you played the story of Sith Inquisitor? Don't make silly assumptions.

Yes, I have, and binding Force Ghosts isn't the same as destroying an essence. At all. For that matter, the SI storyline makes it clear that there isn't a way to outright destroy spirits.

Barsen'thor III also demonstrated the capability to exorcise a possessed host; Lord Vivicar. This is Light Side option.

I've played the Jedi Consular story as well. Exorcising someone from their physical body isn't the same as destroying their essence, which certainly didn't happen because we see Terrak Morrhage exclaiming in anger after he's been exorcised.

The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years.

Isn't this Luke's opinion? That would make sense, given that he wasn't aware of Palpatine rending space after his RotJ death to teleport his essence. Of course Palpatine can't use conventional powers as an essence (DE reaffirms this), but that doesn't make him completely powerless as Gamer #5 proves.

Speaking of teleporting essences, when you mentioned Valkorion being able to transport himself from Yavin IV to Ziost, that's not anything special - even Freedon Nadd showed that power. That just means that as spirits, they can manifest themselves wherever a place strong in the Dark Side is. However, the location here isn't a DS nexus, meaning that Valkorion can't reform his essence here at will. So if Palpatine BFR's him, it's game over.

Palpatine is not an exception.

Yes, he is. Being resigned to the Void normally results in the annihilation of your consciousness and your inability to return, ever again. Palpatine is the only one who has defied that. You cited Darth Marr and other Force Ghosts as comparable examples - they're not. Force Ghosts never come into contact with the Void.

Originally posted by SunRazer
These aren't comparable examples. Foresight isn't the same as Force Sense at all, given that Sidious completely managed to sense Luke's emotions, inner thoughts, memories, etc.

As for Yoda, the Dark Side clouds the vision of Jedi, not the Sith. Sidious isn't going to be affected by a dark side shroud.

My point is: Palpatine's powers aren't infallible. I validated my point through a few examples.

Now coming towards Force sense; I find your analogy problematic. Did Luke Skywalker ever attempt to conceal his presence from Palpatine? I doubt this.

Valkorion, on the other hand, demonstrated the capability to conceal his footprint (and even those of his minions) from any Jedi and/or Sith with great success. The Jedi couldn't figure out the presence of Valkorion's Children among-st themselves until First Son was neutralized. Similarly, Jedi and/or Sith were not able to figure out disembodied presence of Valkorion on Ziost to affect it directly; they came across only the 'possessed' hosts. The leaders of the Empire went as far as to assemble a contingent of powerful Sith Seers (a specialized branch?) to get a fix on the disembodied presence of Valkorion but to no avail.

FYI:

1. Darth Marr had excellent Force sense. He could sense the presence of a Voice of Valkorion (and any other being) from a great distance [He identified Valkorion as the former Sith Emperor when they met on the Eternal Throne]. He even managed to sense the presence of disembodied Valkorion (on Yavin 4) and Revan's spirit.

"The Jedi and I, we both felt it--a ripple in the Force. You had a visitor. A manifestation." (Darth Marr)

However, even Darth Marr was not able to figure out the presence of disembodied Valkorion (on Ziost) because the latter had been effectively concealing his footprint this time to prevent his enemies from affecting him directly.

2. Do you recall a meeting between Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit and Yoda? The former made his presence apparent to the latter by affecting the latter through telekinesis. Yoda couldn't sense the presence of Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit beforehand.

---

Therefore, my points (Palpatine's fallibility and Valkorion's ability to effectively conceal his presence from detection by Jedi and/or Sith), collectively lead to the conclusion that Palpatine may not be able to figure out disembodied presence of Valkorion in a short span of time to BFR him and Valkorion can take advantage of this.

Clear enough?

Originally posted by SunRazer
If that's what you believe, then so be it. I'm not going to deny that it's founded on facts, but you make some outlandish claims there. But as I said, this is discussion for something else, so don't tempt me into further discussion of this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not a thought, it's a statement. Why would Brand make it up? The fact that you took Marr's claims of Vitiate not being able to be destroyed or contained in complete faith but were unwilling to extend the same courtesy to Brand's statement is proof of your confirmation bias. These are all character statements, all the same. Kindly desist with the double standards.

Yes, I know that. When Brand died, Palpatine died with him. I'm not disputing this. I'm saying that every Jedi spirit that ever existed was required to prevent Palpatine's return.

Jedi do not inhabit the void (realm of chaos) after corporeal demise like Sith spirits, should they become one themselves. Jedi spirits are like representatives of the will of the Cosmic Force, materializing during dire situations to guide the living. Moreover, if a Sith spirit gets pulled into the void, it is gone forever and can never return.

And there is no independent confirmation of Jedi spirits interacting with Sith spirits in the void so far (correct me if I am wrong about this).

Here is Luke Skywalker's perspective of the event in question:

Brand said he could feel himself being eaten alive by the darkness, and he could not stop it. Or maybe he would not stop it. He said that Palpatine would die with him, and that Palpatine would never return. "The Force," he said, "and all Jedi who went before us will make sure of that." And then Brand died.

Had I known how to contain and destroy Palpatine, I would have done it to save you. Because I do not know this ability, I am grateful that Brand was with us. He was greater Jedi than I.

Notice the phrase "The Force" there in addition to the statement that you cling to? Luke also noted that some kind of technique was involved in containing Palpatine' essence within and banishing it to the void through corporeal death. Empatojayos Brand had knowledge of this technique.

Again, you are taking a 'belief' of Brand at face value. His last words were more or less metaphorical, nothing else.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not twisting any facts. Palpatine has died before, his essence has been cast into the Void before, and he's escaped it before.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know what you're talking about. You seem to be willing to make wild speculations to support yourself if your view is threatened, but you're not willing to allow others to do the same and berate others for having anything that isn't repeatedly supported by more than one source, because apparently one source isn't enough. Once again, lose the double standards.

Sadow's spirit appears again in TOR. That's not supposed to be possible if his host was killed, according to you.

B/W I find your accusation of my double-standards ironic, given your arguments in favor of Palpatine.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, I have, and binding Force Ghosts isn't the same as destroying an essence. At all. For that matter, the SI storyline makes it clear that there isn't a way to outright destroy spirits.

I've played the Jedi Consular story as well. Exorcising someone from their physical body isn't the same as destroying their essence, which certainly didn't happen because we see Terrak Morrhage exclaiming in anger after he's been exorcised.

My point is that Jedi and Sith could affect Sith spirits with certain techniques. But they were not able to affect disembodied Valkorion on Ziost due to reasons mentioned above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Isn't this Luke's opinion? That would make sense, given that he wasn't aware of Palpatine rending space after his RotJ death to teleport his essence. Of course Palpatine can't use conventional powers as an essence (DE reaffirms this), but that doesn't make him completely powerless as Gamer #5 proves.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Speaking of teleporting essences, when you mentioned Valkorion being able to transport himself from Yavin IV to Ziost, that's not anything special - even Freedon Nadd showed that power. That just means that as spirits, they can manifest themselves wherever a place strong in the Dark Side is. However, the location here isn't a DS nexus, meaning that Valkorion can't reform his essence here at will. So if Palpatine BFR's him, it's game over.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, he is. Being resigned to the Void normally results in the annihilation of your consciousness and your inability to return, ever again. Palpatine is the only one who has defied that. You cited Darth Marr and other Force Ghosts as comparable examples - they're not. Force Ghosts never come into contact with the Void.

Regarding Darth Marr: my point is that he willed himself to incorporeal existence after his corporeal demise. However, he admitted that resisting the pull of Void was taxing for him. This is impressive.

@Legend - I'll respond later or tomorrow.