Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Ant Nobody's saying Palpatine's storms aren't greater than Vitiate's. That doesn't answer the question. Vitiate's ritual is more extreme than Kaan and co.'s firestorm - so again, why can't I apply your logic to just dismiss it on face by shifting the line?
Limits are placed when the logic is stretched so thin that it snaps. 👆
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's far from the point, Ant.That part is simple. Palpatine is just well above Vitiate, but that's not where the line is to be drawn.
I guess Palpatine was massively holding back his universe-busting powers when he lost to Skywalker in a duel.
Originally posted by AncientPower
A Force storm is a wormhole in space conjured by what Palpatine described as a perfect expression of his power, a final step up from Force maelstrom. The actual depictions of this power have suggested that the upper limit of this power can rend the surfaces of worlds.I hope you comprehend the fact that such a power, such a wormhole, is a firecracker compared to the nuclear blast that is a super-massive black hole. A super-massive black hole can't even absorb the core of a galaxy, only create one by acting as the center. Yet some of these super-massive blackholes can be tens of thousands of times larger than the most massive suns in the universe.
So to suggest that such a relatively insignificant force of power as a Force generated storm, a wormhole, can even absorb a galaxy, nevermind the entire limitless universe, is absolutely COMICAL.
It doesn't even begin to compare to what a sorcery-based ritual can do to a single galaxy's life. Not even in the slightest realm of logic is that comparable.
Vitiate's ritual wouldn't even destroy the galaxy, only the life in the galaxy would die. Nothing suggests he's 'busting' a galaxy with that ritual.
LMAO, okaay
I, surprisingly, thought her post was really good. Should I view your complete lack of rebuttal as a concession?
Well, you conceded your sanity when you started arguing Palpatine was a universe-buster*, but are you ready to do the same to your pride?
*Actually long before that, but that's not really the point.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Their difference in power being a planet (or a galaxy with a ritual) and then a universe?I guess Palpatine was massively holding back his universe-busting powers when he lost to Skywalker in a duel.
Yeah, actually he was. Did you see Luke being swallowed up by such a thing?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because there's not even the slightest of correlations between the surface of a planet and a galaxy and then a galaxy and a universe?Limits are placed when the logic is stretched so thin that it snaps. 👆
You still aren't answering the question, lmao. What is the line then? A galaxy? Ten? Twenty? And what is your justification for wherever you draw it? Because your disagreement aside, Vitiate's galaxy ritual seems pretty ridiculous next to Yoda lifting an X wing. Can I dismiss its validity then?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I, surprisingly, thought her post was really good. Should I view your complete lack of rebuttal as a concession?Well, you conceded your sanity when you started arguing Palpatine was a universe-buster*, but are you ready to do the same to your pride?
*Actually long before that, but that's not really the point.
Yeah, I'm surprised by her as well. Trying to draw real world physics to dispute a source and make sense of another because of sorcery is outright delusional. When Ell asked where the line is drawn, he didn't mean a power comparison. That's simple. There are fictional concepts of universe being wiped out. To explain such a phenomenon is beyond our ability to grasp, but so are characters that live forever, but in fiction there exists such characters.
You, I'm not surprised. But hopefully that tells you where we are with this.
Your lack of comprehension regarding precedence set in a mythos is pretty disturbing to be honest.
You seriously find the old Clone Wars series and the Force Unleashed games to be beyond the norm for power displays in the mythos, but Palpatine busting the universe is somehow the exception to that accepted forum rule, despite the fact that has to be the single biggest outlier accolade in all of Star Wars literature?
Then not only are you not dismissing it, but you're ignoring the fact that it is completely off the ball from what we actually see in the comic itself. Then making a psuedo-fallacious appeal to incomprehensibility and ignoring the redundancy made by the inclusion of the fleet in the picture.
Is this seriously your argument? I can expect that from Gideon but not you.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You still aren't answering the question, lmao. What is the line then? A galaxy? Ten? Twenty? And what is your justification for wherever you draw it? Because your disagreement aside, Vitiate's galaxy ritual seems pretty ridiculous next to Yoda lifting an X wing. Can I dismiss its validity then?
The scale of sorcery rituals within the Force, a galaxy-wide energy field =/= the scale of raw displays of Force prowess.
That is the contention here.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Your lack of comprehension regarding precedence set in a mythos is pretty disturbing to be honest.You seriously find the old Clone Wars series and the Force Unleashed games to be beyond the norm for power displays in the mythos, but Palpatine busting the universe is somehow the exception to that accepted forum rule, despite the fact that has to be the single biggest outlier accolade in all of Star Wars literature?
Then not only are you not dismissing it, but you're ignoring the fact that it is completely off the ball from what we actually see in the comic itself. Then making a psuedo-fallacious appeal to incomprehensibility and ignoring the redundancy made by the inclusion of the fleet in the picture.
Is this seriously your argument? I can expect that from Gideon but not you.
When have I dismissed any of it? If I did then I'd dismiss rituals altogether. Being a product of a ritual doesn't make it more real, nor does being less potent. If that's where you are trying to draw the line then it's not up to you do decide how powerful it's supposed to be based on it never happening. Up to that point, Palpatine hasn't displayed such a display of raw power period, not even one that can consume local space, so there is no contradiction other than you not liking a very explicit source.
In terms of logic, there is no line of reasoning that suggests becoming one with a galaxy via a ritual aided by trillions of simultaneous deaths is any more realistic than reality shattering storm that could have devoured everything. Logic doesn't support one over the other and neither does physics. So, again, where exactly are you trying to draw the line and what gives you the right?
Originally posted by AncientPowerSince when are these "forum rules" lel.
You seriously find the old Clone Wars series and the Force Unleashed games to be beyond the norm for power displays in the mythos, but Palpatine busting the universe is somehow the exception to that accepted forum rule, despite the fact that has to be the single biggest outlier accolade in all of Star Wars literature?
Are people seriously arguing that Sidious can destroy a universe because he's just that stronk? Is that serious? Is someone seriously so ****ing stupid they can't grasp the incalculable difference between a planet or even a galaxy and all of reality?
Because that's so ****ing retarded even Team America is boggling at all that AIDS.
Apologies, allow me try to put it in ways you might understand:
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You still aren't answering the question, lmao. What is the line then? A galaxy? Ten? Twenty? And what is your justification for wherever you draw it? Because your disagreement aside, Vitiate's galaxy ritual seems pretty ridiculous next to Yoda lifting an X wing. Can I dismiss its validity then?
👍👍👍
The line has been pretty well drawn at maximum of affecting planets or causing planet-wide effects in the case of the most powerful non-entities, with your standard abilities. Rituals obviously can scale up to far larger than that or if you're using outside forces to amplify already potent powers. Sidious and Vitiates rituals and Sadows solar manipulations spring to mind.
Vitiate's ritual is ridiculously massive in scale, but he had prepped for it for a thousand years, was on an immensely powerful nexus and was being fueled by trillions of deaths from across the galaxy. He may also have been conducting it in some manner throughout all of the JK Act 3 as well, to be able to have harnessed the destruction on the various planets. It's still incredible, but it isn't completely implausible.
The idea that Sidious could cause infinitely greater destruction with a single standard attack is Arkham Asylum style crazy. To do stuff on levels greater than planetary clearly require rituals, time and immense aid.