Originally posted by AncientPower
That literally never happened. That only happened when Brand merged with the Force and took Sheev's spirit with him.
It's still way more impressive than Valkorion getting TP'd by the Outlander and co. right? The Outlander and Revan were probably among the numerous spirits dragging back Palpatine lol.
Though it did take Kyle Katarn channelling all of the Jedi spirits in the Valley of the Jedi to sever Jerec's connection to the thought bomb. Which is funny considering how Vitiate's Nathema ritual was more potent in every way to the Thought Bomb. He's also the living incarnatoon of that ritual, unlike Jerec who was merely amped by it.
That's hardly Sidious tier. His force storms are far more energetic than the ritual firestorm completed by the entire brotherhood (indeed there's evidence that RoT Bane is already above that), so he has similar lines of scaling. Unless if you want to equate this to literally being above VotJ Jerec, which is absurd given that he was like omniscient and could snuff out star systems or whatever (or you could argue he wasn't really that powerful...in which case the scaling doesn't even matter).
You-you aren't serious? I mean, that's Dread Master tier. At least try to think of something impressive.
? When have the dread masters annihilated entire fleets of capital ships, or teleported them across the galaxy? You realize that DE Sidious could have defeated every military faction in TOR by himself through force storms alone, right?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's still way more impressive than Valkorion getting TP'd by the Outlander and co. right? The Outlander and Revan were probably among the numerous spirits dragging back Palpatine lol.
I assume you're just pretending that the Dramath Holocron wasn't the only reason they could even fight back. Not to mention the fact that the Outlander could literally bend reality to her will in the environment they fought in. Top class false equivalency you've got there.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's hardly Sidious tier. His force storms are far more energetic than the ritual firestorm completed by the entire brotherhood (indeed there's evidence that RoT Bane is already above that), so he has similar lines of scaling. Unless if you want to equate this to literally being above VotJ Jerec, which is absurd given that he was like omniscient and could snuff out star systems or whatever (or you could argue he wasn't really that powerful...in which case the scaling doesn't even matter).
For the love of...
Okay, just so you understand. He was semi-omiscient. If he was fully, then he would have anticipated what Kyle was going to do and one-shotted him. But he wasn't. Jerec's limited capacity to wield the amp notwithstanding, Vitiate's was greater in every conceivable way. Better yet, it was permanent. Furthermore, he grew immensely stronger over 1,400 years before repeating it on an even greater scale. Not to mention, snuffing out star systems is hardly above Tenebrae. Nor is it comparable to fully asserting his supremacy over the Force over two entire planets, fully preventing it's ability to exist.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
? When have the dread masters annihilated entire fleets of capital ships, or teleported them across the galaxy? You realize that DE Sidious could have defeated every military faction in TOR by himself through force storms alone, right?
They've done better than that, but given how valuable these quotes will be, I'm not sure I'm quite ready to burden you. (Dread Masters are at least system tier, though taking Marr at his word puts them on sector tier at minimum. You really don't have a clue how much more advanced TOR wank has gotten, do you.)
Because any comparison is fundamentally flawed.
Though I'd say absorbing the Force across an entire planet as a mere spirit whilst maintaining a void on another planet; whilst multitasking with creating immortal monoliths made out of pure dark side energy, thus defying the very will of the Force by existing.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I assume you're just pretending that the Dramath Holocron wasn't the only reason they could even fight back.
*citation needed*
BTW, nice job shooting yourself in the foot if you're going to argue that some holocron modified by a 10 year old Tenebrae and Lord Dramath, who said 10 year old oneshotted, are able to seriously hinder Valkorion in a confrontation. Sounds like it undercuts all of the alleged power growth he's gotten in all those years. Compare this to Galen Marek's attempt to do something similar to Sidious, and yet it didn't even affect him at all. Who is more powerful: Galen Marek, or Lord Dramath? 🙄
Not to mention the fact that the Outlander could literally bend reality to her will in the environment they fought in. Top class false equivalency you've got there.
The fight was in the Outlander's mind, so it was clearly symbolic of TP unless if they are somehow fighting with lightsabers and TK inside someone's head. Valkorion tried to TP the Outlander, failed, and was destroyed.
It's pretty obvious that Sidious needing all Jedi in history (and the Force itself) to keep him from returning is a bigger feat than Valkorion getting telepathically annihilated by the Outlander and co. You're grasping at straws to deny it at this point.
For the love of...Okay, just so you understand. He was semi-omiscient. If he was fully, then he would have anticipated what Kyle was going to do and one-shotted him. But he wasn't. Jerec's limited capacity to wield the amp notwithstanding, Vitiate's was greater in every conceivable way.
You're arguing against yourself here. Can Jerec really snuff out star systems and know nearly everything about the history of the galaxy?
If "yes", then he obviously isn't weaker than Valkorion.
If "no", then what's even the point of trying to scale Valkorion above him? What does Jerec have?
Either way, your point falls apart.
Better yet, it was permanent.
BTW, I want sources for Vitiate being more powerful than VotJ Jerec please.
It's also funny how you try to glorify Valkorion for being responsible for the void on Nathema while using Nathema's restoration on his death as evidence, but then fail to make the equivalent connection between Darth Sidious and the balance of the entire Force on a galactic (universal?) scale, lol.
Furthermore, he grew immensely stronger over 1,400 years before repeating it on an even greater scale.
?? Since when was Ziost on a greater scale than Nathema? It's explicitly stated that the latter was more significant.
Anyway, apparently Lord Dramath can get one-shotted by child Tenebrae but then injure Valkorion. 👆
Not to mention, snuffing out star systems is hardly above Tenebrae.
lmfao ok
Nor is it comparable to fully asserting his supremacy over the Force over two entire planets, fully preventing it's ability to exist.
What is the second planet where Vitiate prevented the Force's ability to exist? ???
They've done better than that, but given how valuable these quotes will be, I'm not sure I'm quite ready to burden you. (Dread Masters are at least system tier, though taking Marr at his word puts them on sector tier at minimum. You really don't have a clue how much more advanced TOR wank has gotten, do you.)
So you're not actually going to provide any sources? Moving on then. 👆
Originally posted by The Ellimist
*citation needed*BTW, nice job shooting yourself in the foot if you're going to argue that some holocron modified by a 10 year old Tenebrae and Lord Dramath, who said 10 year old oneshotted, are able to seriously hinder Valkorion in a confrontation. Sounds like it undercuts all of the alleged power growth he's gotten in all those years. Compare this to Galen Marek's attempt to do something similar to Sidious, and yet it didn't even affect him at all. Who is more powerful: Galen Marek, or Lord Dramath? 🙄
I mean...isn't that what blatantly happened? Dramath did this attack and it damaged Valk.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
*citation needed*
Di-did you even watch the fight? The Outlander uses it to free Vaylin(and Arcann, depending on alignment) from Tenebrae's utter dominance of her spirit and will. Then needs to use the Holocron throughout the battle to channel multiple sides of the Force; represented by Revan, Satele and Marr, or he straight up cannot win. Then as soon as Tenebrae obliterates it, all three of them get casually dominated.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
BTW, nice job shooting yourself in the foot if you're going to argue that some holocron modified by a 10 year old Tenebrae and Lord Dramath, who said 10 year old oneshotted, are able to seriously hinder Valkorion in a confrontation. Sounds like it undercuts all of the alleged power growth he's gotten in all those years. Compare this to Galen Marek's attempt to do something similar to Sidious, and yet it didn't even affect him at all. Who is more powerful: Galen Marek, or Lord Dramath? 🙄
1.Holy Mother of Troy you're misinformed. Tenebrae modified the Holocron so heavily that it was more dangerous than the fvcking Phobis Devices were. It was also modified, by him, with the feature of, y'know, imprisoning or outright destroying spirits:
In his youth, Valkorion--then known as Tenebrae--discovered a way to twist and pervert the lattice so it could capture the spirit of powerful Force users, locking them in a metaphysical cage. He used the weapon on Dramath, his tyrannical father, and trapped him inside the holocron for centuries.But the same corrupted technology Valkorion used to vanquish his father could also be turned against him, permanently imprisoning his immortal spirit... or obliterating it from existence.
- Dramath's Holocron Codex Entry
2.Did you just make a false claim? I'm pretty sure you did. Dramath's spirit suicided and all the explosion of his spirit did was 'put a chink' in Tenebrae's armor. Yet again, you're wrong.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The fight was in the Outlander's mind, so it was clearly symbolic of TP unless if they are somehow fighting with lightsabers and TK inside someone's head. Valkorion tried to TP the Outlander, failed, and was destroyed.
Wow, for the third time straight. Wrong. Tenebrae did TP the Outlander, actually that'd be an understatement.
"Valkorion shattered your mind and threw you in the abyss of your psyche. You survived by assuming his form. Take the Holocron, free yourself."
So not only did Temebrae not fail, he completely destroyed her mind and took over her identity. The only reason the Outlander even survives is because she assumes his identity and then uses an extremely powerful Holocron to reclaim her identity and then uses it to wage said mental war. Then Tenebrae destroys that Holocron, forcing the Outlander to abuse the fact that they could use the environment of her mind to force a mental domination technique to leave him powerless.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's pretty obvious that Sidious needing all Jedi in history (and the Force itself) to keep him from returning is a bigger feat than Valkorion getting telepathically annihilated by the Outlander and co. You're grasping at straws to deny it at this point.
If only what you'd claimed wasn't completely incorrect.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're arguing against yourself here. Can Jerec really snuff out star systems and know nearly everything about the history of the galaxy?If "yes", then he obviously isn't weaker than Valkorion.
If "no", then what's even the point of trying to scale Valkorion above him? What does Jerec have?
Either way, your point falls apart.
No, it being correct doesn't 'obviously' mean fvck all. Tenebrae's powers manifested in almost incomprehensible power and physical immortality. But yes, it's possible that Jerec was simply overwhelmed by the power.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
BTW, I want sources for Vitiate being more powerful than VotJ Jerec please.
No, it's Nathema Ritual being > Thought Bomb:
Nathema: Once known as Medriaas, Nathema was an agriworld of the Sith Empire at a time when Sith also controlled the Chorlian sector. An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality. A transcription of this ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan.
- Force and Destiny
You see, they achieved the same effect:
The vacuum at the center of the blast sucked in thousands of the disembodied spirits and trapped them in an unbreakable state of equilibrium.
- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The difference is that Vitiate absorbed them directly and permanently increased his power.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's also funny how you try to glorify Valkorion for being responsible for the void on Nathema while using Nathema's restoration on his death as evidence, but then fail to make the equivalent connection between Darth Sidious and [b]the balance of the entire Force on a galactic (universal?) scale, lol.[/B]
We've already been over this and you failed to respond.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
?? Since when was Ziost on a greater scale than Nathema? It's explicitly stated that the latter was more significant.
Significant, yes. But in terms of potency, there were millions of Sith on Ziost. Not even half were evacuated by the Outlander.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Anyway, apparently Lord Dramath can get one-shotted by child Tenebrae but then injure Valkorion. 👆
Tenebrae broke his mind. Again, he didn't injure him at all, per Temebrae himself.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmfao ok
The Eternal Family > The Zakuul Pantheon. Tenebrae > World Razer. 🙂
Originally posted by The Ellimist
What is the second planet where Vitiate prevented the Force's ability to exist? ???
Were you not listening?
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9593256#edit9593256
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So you're not actually going to provide any sources? Moving on then. 👆
I mean, I already proved more than once that they're multiplanetary. Why are we pretending otherwise?
Originally posted by AncientPower
1.Holy Mother of Troy you're misinformed. Tenebrae modified the Holocron so heavily that it was more dangerous than the fvcking Phobis Devices were. It was also modified, by him, with the feature of, y'know, imprisoning or outright destroying spirits:
😕 That's my point, lol. Child Tenebrae can create a weapon dangerous to his later peak self even though you claim there's this insane godlike power growth, a line of anti-scaling further corroborated by Dramath being able to ragdoll Valkorion despite being oneshotted by his 10 year old version. I've pointed this out multiple times, and you haven't even acknowledged it yet.
2.Did you just make a false claim? I'm pretty sure you did.
😂
Dramath's spirit suicided and all the explosion of his spirit did was 'put a chink' in Tenebrae's armor. Yet again, you're wrong.
Uh, no.
https://imgur.com/LIf5P2H
https://imgur.com/a/dBEp3Hj
^ Valkorion was getting dominated, and then got launched back several meters and took several seconds to recover. Meanwhile, Galen Marek's own suicide blast doesn't do anything to Palpatine. Advantage: Sidious.
Wow, for the third time straight. Wrong. Tenebrae did TP the Outlander, actually that'd be an understatement.
...that doesn't contradict what I said...
Valkorion lost to a group of about 5-6 people with the aid of a holocron and some hackneyed cliche about the Outlander figuring out that it's "my mind, my rules", while Sidious was finally defeated by the Force itself + potentially millions or billions of Jedi spirits coming together. Advantage: Sidious.
Just admit that this isn't the best comparison to argue for Valk with. We have Valkorion:
- getting dominated and ragdolled by Lord Dramath, who he was able to oneshot when he was 10; meanwhile, Sidious no-sells Galen Marek's most powerful, final attack
- having his spirit obliterated because the Outlander lucid dreams or something while Sidious needs to be held back by the Force + all Jedi in history
You can't seriously look at the two events and conclude that Valkorion fared better.
No, it being correct doesn't 'obviously' mean fvck all. Tenebrae's powers manifested in almost incomprehensible power and physical immortality. But yes, it's possible that Jerec was simply overwhelmed by the power.
How is this a meaningful rebuttal to anything? "almost incomprehensible power"? Lmfao. And he explicitly isn't immortal.
You are trying to claim with a straight face that post-Nathema Vitiate > VotJ Jerec. Like, you seriously think that. Care to produce some justification beyond "almost incomprehensible power"?
No, it's Nathema Ritual being > Thought Bomb:
I should've guessed you didn't actually have anything. "inspiration" != "inferior". Likewise, there's no reason to assume that the two events were the same per-capita just because they both involve absorbing spirits. For one thing, the uber VotJ nexus didn't yet exist as of the beginning of RoT, as Bane walks up to the thought bomb and doesn't notice any sort of godlike power. It's therefore likely that the nexus grows in power over the course of a thousand years. For another, given that the VotJ apparently grants solar system busting powers + near godlike omniscience, it's obviously above the "disarmed by Meetra Surik" Nathema power boost. The claim that Nathema actually made Vitiate some sort of solar system busting god is just pure comedy.
We can go through a laundry list of differences between the two, like the thought bomb not dissipating on the death of its users, etc. But you get the point (?).
We've already been over this and you failed to respond.
Yes, you failed utterly to demonstrate why an imbalance through which Sidious is the only factor that exists in its entire duration, and to which Sidious's death causes its restoration, is somehow not evidence that Sidious is causing the imbalance or that I should be more impressed by Nathema, a planetary effect compared to one on a universal scale.
Significant, yes. But in terms of potency, there were millions of Sith on Ziost. Not even half were evacuated by the Outlander.
You're making the specific claim that both Nathema and Ziost are comparable to a nexus that grants near-omniscience on a cosmic scale. How does this back that contention in the slightest?
The Eternal Family > The Zakuul Pantheon. Tenebrae > World Razer. 🙂
*yawn* You do realize that the exact same methodology for interpreting accolades can be used to establish that Sidious > Abeloth, right?
Do you really want to keep doubling down on the claim that the Vitiate who got disarmed by Meetra Surik was a godlike star system buster near omniscience omniking? Seriously?
Were you not listening?http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9593256#edit9593256
lol, you claimed that he denied the existence of the Force on two planets, presumably Nathema and Ziost. This quite obviously isn't the case with Ziost...because the Force is still there.
I mean, I already proved more than once that they're multiplanetary. Why are we pretending otherwise?
You made the claim that the Dread Masters could replicate the potency and strategic value of Force Storms. I'm waiting?
Yeah you can't really use the Valley of the Jedis nexus and scale it to Vitiate. Jerec would have caused supernovas with a thought and destroyed star systems with a whisper if you believe in Katarns fathers words. While the Nexus was created by an inferior version of Vitiates, I feel that as centuries went by the VOTJ nexus became more potent. Or you can chalk up Katarns fathers statement as hyperbole.
As for the thread, Force Storms are more potent. They rip apart Eclipse class star destroyers which have superior shielding to an Executors, which in the ICS says it has shielding power output equal to a the power output of a medium sized star, which would be roughly 96 Petatons of TNT per second or 96,000 Teratons. The asteroid that killed the dinosaurs was 100 Teratons of TNT.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
😕 That's my point, lol. Child Tenebrae can create a weapon dangerous to his later peak self even though you claim there's this insane godlike power growth, a line of anti-scaling further corroborated by Dramath being able to ragdoll Valkorion despite being oneshotted by his 10 year old version. I've pointed this out multiple times, and you haven't even acknowledged it yet.
Why are we pretending that an anti-spirit Holocron; more powerful than the fecking Phobis Device; specifically stated to be Tenebrae's sole weakness, being capable of effecting the spirit form of Valkorion, somehow contradicts the mountain of evidence that his living power growth is massive?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Uh, no.https://imgur.com/LIf5P2H
https://imgur.com/a/dBEp3Hj^ Valkorion was getting dominated, and then got launched back several meters and took several seconds to recover. Meanwhile, Galen Marek's own suicide blast doesn't do anything to Palpatine. Advantage: Sidious.
"Dramath pierced my armor at the cost of his life."
So Tenebrae caught him off-guard and attempted to destroy him.
You're also basically lying now. The power exchange battle between Marek and Sheev is described as 'desperate' causing Sidious to vocalise his 'lascivious pain'. His following suicidal blast obviously would've been a vastly greater source of power than anything he was drawing on to tank Sheev's lightning, press down on him, and cause him to electrocute himself.
But hey, as you yourself put it this was representing a battle of willpower. Dramath attempted to destroy Tenebrae's will, thus vanquishing his spirit. He failed, and was obliterated whilst trying.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
...that doesn't contradict what I said...Valkorion lost to a group of about 5-6 people with the aid of a holocron and some hackneyed cliche about the Outlander figuring out that it's "my mind, my rules".
Valkorion lost due to these facts:
1.He was in a spirit form, attempting to fight the host for control of her body. Given the sheer willpower feats that the Force-user protags already possess as of Act III, this is evidently one of the strongest-willed Force-users in history.
2.Arcann, Vaylin, Senya and Dramath all helped. Half of whom are some of the most powerful top-tier Force-users ever.
3.He already prevailed, but only the immensely powerful Holocron that is stated to be his only weakness, prevented his total victory.
4.The Outlander was channelling the aid of Revan, Satele and Marr to help via said Holocron. One of those being one of the most powerful Force-users ever.
5.Everything I just mentioned was still not enough, and it took the Outlander abusing the fact that it was in-fact his own host mind they were fighting over.
Simply put, Tenebrae in spirit form godstomped the Outlander in a clash of wills so badly that the Outlander had to use the 'Valkorion' identity abandoned by Tenebrae to prevent total mental devastation. What is worse is that the Outlander had to be guided by a spiritual entity to find a way back to the Holocron in order to prevent going 'insane' without their own identity. The following clash required everything I just mentioned to stop it from happening a second time, this time permanently.
Moreover, this was at a point of vulnerability when the Outlander had to use the Holocron:
"There will be a time when Tenebrae will be vulnerable, that is when you must strike."
- Dramath
Originally posted by The Ellimist
while Sidious was finally defeated by the Force itself + potentially millions or billions of Jedi spirits coming together. Advantage: Sidious.Just admit that this isn't the best comparison to argue for Valk with. We have Valkorion:
- getting dominated and ragdolled by Lord Dramath, who he was able to oneshot when he was 10; meanwhile, Sidious no-sells Galen Marek's most powerful, final attack.
- having his spirit obliterated because the Outlander lucid dreams or something while Sidious needs to be held back by the Force + all Jedi in history.You can't seriously look at the two events and conclude that Valkorion fared better.
I can, and will. You see, once again you've failed. Utterly. Sidious tried to transfer his spirit, but instead gets Khem Val'd by Brand who was fully capable of containing Sheev's essence even though he was dying due to a fatal lightning blast from Sheev himself earlier.
Thus dragging Sheev into the Netherworld of the Force. Per a dying Brand, he would have other Force ghosts and the Force prevent Sheev from successfully. Now whilst his claims are nice. He's hardly got the experience or knowledge to make the claim.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
How is this a meaningful rebuttal to anything? "almost incomprehensible power"? Lmfao. And he explicitly isn't immortal.You are trying to claim with a straight face that post-Nathema Vitiate > VotJ Jerec. Like, you seriously think that. Care to produce some justification beyond "almost incomprehensible power"?
Yes, the ritual allowed him to absorb the essences of 8,000 full-fledged Sith Lords, and all the other death caused. Causing a void in the Force which was a byproduct of his existence. The power he was given was beyond Meetra's comprehension, is repeatedly stated to have given him nigh-godlike, indestructible, unfathomable power per many sources. Also, he most certainly did enjoy immortality. His original body lived to a ripe old age of 1,400 years until it was killed by the Hero. Compare that to Marka Ragnos, who was considered long-lived even for a Sith pureblood, who didn't even make it to two centuries. He even used alchemy to make Lord Scourge and Revan immortal. Not to mention even the Dread Masters' power made them immortal, and they're insignificant next to 'Vitiate'. The difference you've failed to discern is this:
My son is immortal, but not invulnerable.
- Dramath
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I should've guessed you didn't actually have anything. "inspiration" != "inferior". Likewise, there's no reason to assume that the two events were the same per-capita just because they both involve absorbing spirits. For one thing, the uber VotJ nexus didn't yet exist as of the beginning of RoT, as Bane walks up to the thought bomb and doesn't notice any sort of godlike power. It's therefore likely that the nexus grows in power over the course of a thousand years. For another, given that the VotJ apparently grants solar system busting powers + near godlike omniscience, it's obviously above the "disarmed by Meetra Surik" Nathema power boost. The claim that Nathema actually made Vitiate some sort of solar system busting god is just pure comedy.We can go through a laundry list of differences between the two, like the thought bomb not dissipating on the death of its users, etc. But you get the point (?).
It's probably a good thing that Bane's ignorance isn't really relevant. The spirits were the source of the power there, Vitiate's source of power was eight thousand spirits. The effects on Nathema were vastly greater in magnitude than the effects the though bomb had on Ruusan.
Nah, Tenebrae wasn't busting solar systems. But via scaling and demonstration, we know he's fully capable of galactic-scale feats(Nihilus). His presence in the Force is felt in perpetuity by the Sith(per Beniko) and is the primary reason for the strongest dark side shift in history until Krayt's time. He's causing a pair of voids in the Force maintained by his mere existence. He's capable of planetary+ feats even in a spiritual form. He can create immortal lifeforms out of pure dark side energy, even as a spirit.
He's capable of tackling Sel-Makor, suppressing Vaylin, withering Revan, dominating the Dread Masters, controlling hundreds of Children and a whole lot more, all at the same time. From across the galaxy, too.
Let's not forget how a fraction of his power can make hundreds of his Children > Act 1 Barsen'thor > an ancient Sith amped by hundreds of Jedi Masters. Yet some of those Children have powers unfathomable to the other, lesser Children.
Also, Ziost itself is also far more potent than merely planetary. It causes the station which is very far out of the orbit of Ziost, to have power fluctuations and even makes it seem to shake. It also drains the moon around Ziost. Let's not forget, the sun itself. Oh and, no, Hall Hood was wrong. But that's not a quote I'd care to reveal just yet with a CaV of mine coming up.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yes, you failed utterly to demonstrate why an imbalance through which Sidious is the [b]only factor that exists in its entire duration, and to which Sidious's death causes its restoration, is somehow not evidence that Sidious is causing the imbalance or that I should be more impressed by Nathema, a planetary effect compared to one on a universal scale.[/B]
Oh, dear. I really don't fancy repeating myself. Long story short:
1.Sidious and Plagueis acted as a singular entity channelling months of intense meditation.
2.The both of them are insects next to the Son. Whose growth per the Father specifically made the dark side; and thus the Sith, more powerful.
3.Per Qui-Gon Jinn, the Clone Wars made the dark side stronger every day.
4.Vader and Sidious were required to die; with Anakin turning to the light side, to restore balance, per George Lucas.
5.Sidious in a vastly stronger reborn incarnation, didn't cause an imbalance. He was merely causing the dark side to grow stronger.
Nor is causing one side of the Force to grow stronger, comparable to causing entire planets to become Force voids that deny the Force's will.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're making the specific claim that both Nathema and Ziost are comparable to a nexus that grants near-omniscience on a cosmic scale. How does this back that contention in the slightest?
Because the source of that nexus was literally a less potent replica in terms of effects than Nathema and Ziost were.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
*yawn* You do realize that the exact same methodology for interpreting accolades can be used to establish that Sidious > Abeloth, right?
Given that you literally get retconned by sources putting her over individual Mortis Anchorites, your attempt fails. Mine is perfectly noncontradictory and is stated outright. But nice try.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you really want to keep doubling down on the claim that the Vitiate who got disarmed by Meetra Surik was a godlike star system buster near omniscience omniking? Seriously?
None of those things were claimed by me.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lol, you claimed that he denied the existence of the Force on two planets, presumably Nathema and Ziost. This quite obviously isn't the case with Ziost... because the Force is still there.
Wrong. Oh, so very wrong. He did to Ziost what he did to Nathema:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t654628.html
There is no difference between the two, only the means of mass murder. The end ritual and effect are one in the same. Ome of those effects is absorbing the Force on planetary scale.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You made the claim that the Dread Masters could replicate the potency and strategic value of Force Storms. I'm waiting?
No, you asked what technique that Valkorion would use to destroy a fleet across a galaxy. I pointed out that not only have the Dread Masters done that, they've done much better. The Dread Masters could project their powers across space, as you'd know if you played the Dread War.
"Perhaps we can reduce our losses to mere sectors."
- Darth Marr
"A dozen systems have fallen, you've seen their power."
- Darth Marr
Then there's the fact that we have actual cutscenes that they can project themselves across space and cause capital ships to lose power instantly, before dominating the minds of the crew and even Jedi as strong as post-Act III Hero of Tython:
Note: They simultaneously appeared on Coruscant as pointed out by Supreme Chancellor Saresh. As well as resurrect Kephess from the dead at the same time.
They do the same to a Imperial dreadnought simultaneously:
https://youtu.be/PoaFAPuHzzs
Again, the Dread Masters did this casually. They could quite easily have taken the ships down if they'd had the inclination. We know they've destroyed fleets before:
When the Sith Empire attempt to conquer the Republic, the Dread Masters used their powers to destroy entire Republic fleets.
―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
Their power allowed the Dread Masters to destroy entire Republic fleets during the Great War.
―The Dread Masters Codex Entry
Note: During the Great War, the Dread Masters were on Dromund Kaas serving Tenebrae.
On Dromund Kaas, they served the Emperor as prophets and advisers, meditating in isolation together.
―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
Again, this is not nearly the height of their power.
Originally posted by The Merchant
As for the thread, Force Storms are more potent. They rip apart Eclipse class star destroyers which have superior shielding to an Executors, which in the ICS says it has shielding power output equal to a the power output of a medium sized star, which would be roughly 96 Petatons of TNT per second or 96,000 Teratons. The asteroid that killed the dinosaurs was 100 Teratons of TNT.
The Force Storm consumed the Eclipse from within the ship, bypassing shields entirely.
When was that the case? We see the Storm right outside devouring an entire Rebel fleet and then when Palps lost his control over it the storm came back to eat him and the Eclipse. Even if that was the case Palps at an entire fleet, cruisers which are the most common ships still have shielding in the Teraton range if the Acclamator star destroyer is any indication.
Also I'm sure the dread masters only destroyed fleets by making their crews go crazy and cause chaos, they themselves didn't one shot fleets.
I'm certain that isn't the case and even so destroying the rebel fleet still would be multiple Teratons worth of energy, not to mention The Force storm that appeared on Coruscant caused damage that still was there iirc a decade after it appeared and Palpatine wasn't trying to cause destructive power on the surface of the planet he merely wanted to scoop up Luke and R2 who were both fine which shows great accuracy of his power.
Yeah, thru causing madness of their crew and ig making it inoperable thru unknown means. Have we ever actually seen them blast apart a ship? You could give them the benefit of the doubt they could scaling from Jadus, but nothing suggest they can cause. a massive force attack that takes out entire fleets.
Taking out fleets isn't the best thing Force Storms have, they can take out the "surface" of a planet. If that means destroying the crust of a planet then Palpatines force storms can destroy small Moons. You could argue the surface part is vague, but star wars has used surface to mean an entire planetary crust in the past.
Forgot to mention Coruscant has 2 planetary shields powerful enough to resist BDZs, which are orbital bombardments from star destroyers and a single ISD can melt the surface of a planet "in a matter of hours"
It is the case, the Force Storm went out of control.
The Dread Masters can project power to multiple planets/ships across the galaxy and cause the power to shut down, as well as dominating the crew. Ell asked for cross-space fleet destruction, this is clearly within the scope of their power.
But to be honest, I'm interested in what Ell's reply is. Not your own. No offense.