Two entirely different expressions of power for different ends. Not a wise comparison.
Nevertheless, causing a planet-scale Death Field is the most demanding feat possible.
Darth Bane, by drawing power from a nearby nexus structure, was able to conjure a Death Field about 30 feet across, to defeat some cultists, and the feat still pushed him to his limits.
Creating storms of Force energy that can rend half the surface of a planet < Creating a void in the Force that renders an entire planet lifeless; doing the same to its moon and causing a space station's reactor* to fluctuate.
*A reactor powered by Isotope-5:
A mineral unknown in the rest of the galaxy, isotope-5 was secretly discovered during Hutt-backed deep-core mining operations on the planet Makeb. Named for the fifth known isotopic variation of an element normally found in neutron stars, isotope-5 has powerful warping effects on gravitational and electromagnetic fields even in miniscule quantities. Early research into isotope-5’s potential as an energy source is extraordinarily promising. The substance is relatively stable, and particle bombardment could theoretically induce a desired state in the isotope to channel various forms of energy. Best estimates put the total amount of isotope-5 in Makeb’s core at less than two tonnes. Nonetheless, it is highly likely that Makeb’s atmospheric interference and unusual mesa formations are a result of the isotope’s presence. The existence of isotope-5 is highly classified. Only select Imperial personnel, high-ranking Hutt Cartel members and Makeb natives directly involved with its mining are believed to be aware of its existence.
- Isotope 5 Codex Entry
The mineral isotope-5 is the Hutt Cartel’s key to technological advances that will make it the galaxy’s undisputed military superpower. Scientists speculate that a single microgram of isotope-5 is enough to power a large datapad for an entire century. The Hutts are not interested in such peaceful applications, however. Unbeknownst to Makeb’s rightful government, Hutt-employed scientists have designed and manufactured advanced war droids unlike anything the galaxy has seen. These isotope-5 droids are powered by fuel rods that generate impressive energy shields and devastating blaster fire. Toborro the Hutt has deployed isotope-5 droids to attack civilian settlements and resistance forces. Although these early models are clearly “expendable” prototype designs, they are remarkably effective. Toborro is likely holding even more advanced isotope-5 droids in reserve.
- Isotope-5 Droids Codex Entry
"Isotope-5...Toborro's great discovery at the center of Makeb. Something truly unique in all the galaxy–and worth destroying this planet to obtain. Imagine a substance as light as shimmersilk but stronger than durasteel. It distorts gravity and electromagnetic fields so predictably that it can be refined into fuel."
- DR. JUVARD ILLIP OGGUROBB
Isotope-5 mining operations are ongoing (see “Makeb” entry, below) and providing the Empire with increasing stores of the unusual material. Despite initial expectations, weaponization has not been the Imperial Science Bureau’s primary research vector. Other developments in energy production and gravity manipulation have taken precedence so far. Prototype iso-5 generators have been activated in fifty-seven planetary garrisons and shipyards, drastically reducing the Empire’s reliance on previously-strained resource lines and boosting available frontline assets by 39.7 percent.
- State of the Galaxy, SWTOR Website
Ayyyyy, you're literally ignoring the rest of the post? 😂
I'm using the term fluctuate because the entire station loses power repeatedly. That's just a side effect too. The main effect was the desolation of Ziost; and its moon, causing a void in the Force.
More importantly he could do this as a spirit. Tenebrae in an incorporeal form has orbital-encompassing feats. I'm not even bringing Ziost's sun into this yet.
You failed to reply to my main counter, so what exactly are you doing making rebuttals as pitiful as this?
Originally posted by AncientPower
So Tenebrae caught him off-guard and attempted to destroy him.
I assume you mean Lord Dramath caught him off-guard. And if you watch the fight you'll notice that Dramath overpowers him for several seconds and then ragdolls him after very clearly confronting him head on and giving Valkorion plenty of time to defend himself, so no, he doesn't catch him off guard at all unless if Valkorion is a total moron (well...).
Honestly your best course of action here is to just admit it's an inconsistent low-end feat for Valkorion and focus on his better moments, not to pretend it isn't a horrible showing.
You're also basically lying now. The power exchange battle between Marek and Sheev is described as 'desperate' causing Sidious to vocalise his 'lascivious pain'. His following suicidal blast obviously would've been a vastly greater source of power than anything he was drawing on to tank Sheev's lightning, press down on him, and cause him to electrocute himself.
How does this address the fact that Sidious easily handles his suicide blast while Valkorion gets ragdolled by a spirit Lord Dramath?
BTW, that's not what "lying" means. You literally didn't say anything that contradicted anything I said.
I can, and will. You see, once again you've failed. Utterly. Sidious tried to transfer his spirit, but instead gets Khem Val'd by Brand who was fully capable of containing Sheev's essence even though he was dying due to a fatal lightning blast from Sheev himself earlier.
Brand, who at this point is likely a true Force ghost, makes it clear that he can't hold Sidious for long (indeed, maybe for like the 15 seconds it would take for his dialogue), and ultimately takes him to the Netherworld to have everyone hold him back.
Thus dragging Sheev into the Netherworld of the Force. Per a dying Brand, he would have other Force ghosts and the Force prevent Sheev from successfully. Now whilst his claims are nice. He's hardly got the experience or knowledge to make the claim.
Why would Brand lie and give Luke a false sense of confidence, thus endangering the entire galaxy again? He obviously knows this, perhaps through Force revelation or some other mechanism. He's not an unreliable source. We know that Palpatine doesn't return even though he had returned from Chaos before.
This is what we know:
- Sidious escapes Chaos after RotJ; Valkorion never accomplishes this.
- Sidious's spirit wanders through space without a nexus or anchor; Valkorion never accomplishes this.
- Sidious needs to be held from returning by both the Force and every Jedi in history...Valkorion just needs to get TP'd by like six people and a holocron he modified when he was ten.
We also know that:
- Sidious no-sells Galen Marek's final, oneness attack that made his previous displays of power look like nothing; Valkorion gets ragdolled and tossed around by Lord Dramath, who he allegedly owned when he was like 10.
These are clearly two points in Sidious's favor.
Yes, the ritual allowed him to absorb the essences of 8,000 full-fledged Sith Lords, and all the other death caused. Causing a void in the Force which was a byproduct of his existence. The power he was given was beyond Meetra's comprehension, is repeatedly stated to have given him nigh-godlike, indestructible, unfathomable power per many sources.
This literally does nothing to establish your argument in the slightest. Vitiate quite obviously is not as powerful as VotJ Jerec, who has the ability to snuff out star systems with a thought and do all other sorts of things quite palpably beyond the capabilities of Vitiate who gets disarmed by Meetra's saber throw and nearly incinerated by an astromech droid's flamethrower. To suggest that VotJ Jerec is seriously weaker than Vitiate is crazier than anything Azronger has ever argued.
Anyway, you proceed to completely ignore every actual point I made demonstrating that the thought bomb and Nathema aren't really analogous and that the VotJ is obviously more powerful than Vitiate or basically any Force user unrelated to Mortis in the mythos. The thought bomb may have been inspired by Nathema, but it very clearly exhibits different effects, not the least of which is that it eventually produces a nexus that gives Force users powers comparable to pre-crisis Superman. This is far, far crazier than Palpatine's "all of space" quote. It's just absurd and IDK why you're still parroting it.
ah, Tenebrae wasn't busting solar systems.
Concession accepted. He's not on VotJ Jerec's level, as everyone knows.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh, dear. I really don't fancy repeating myself. Long story short:1.Sidious and Plagueis acted as a singular entity channelling months of intense meditation.
3.Per Qui-Gon Jinn, the Clone Wars made the dark side stronger every day.
Way to miss the point. Vitiate needed way more help for Nathema. Your point is that he maintains the void afterwards, and Sidious very clearly maintains the imbalance until his death on Endor.
2.The both of them are insects next to the Son. Whose growth per the Father specifically made the dark side; and thus the Sith, more powerful.
😂 So Sidious's power growth is being driven by a Mortis Anchorite, and it's clearly a permanent growth since he doesn't get weaker after either the Son's death or RotJ? Wow, that blows Nathema out of the water, doesn't it? Remember, it's not about how impressive the circumstances of the growth were - it's that the growth happened.
BTW, this is clearly not a rebuttal to the imbalance because the four major events (initial unbalancing, Chosen One, Plagueis prologue/epilogue, and end of RotJ) all coincide exactly with Plagueis and Sidious's timelines. The Son's actions may have been a separate factor, but the imbalance remains both before and after his own story.
4.Vader and Sidious were required to die; with Anakin turning to the light side, to restore balance, per George Lucas.
Yet the imbalance existed before Vader, so that doesn't counter my point at all.
5.Sidious in a vastly stronger reborn incarnation, didn't cause an imbalance. He was merely causing the dark side to grow stronger.
Sidious very consciously unbalances the Force in the PT-era. I see no reason to throw all the explicit statements that he does this away because he doesn't bother to do it again when he returns and isn't trying to hide or anything.
Nor is causing one side of the Force to grow stronger, comparable to causing entire planets to become Force voids that deny the Force's will.
Nonsense. The unbalancing is clearly framed as the penultimate cosmic danger to that point in galactic history. In addition to it being described as an unprecedented shifting in the tide of the Force that clouds the precognitive abilities of the entire Jedi Order, it leads to the Force birthing the most powerful being in the history of Star Wars (alongside the Father) to stop those responsible. You do realize that the entire point of Anakin's existence is to restore balance to the Force right?
So we know that:
- Sidious is viewed by the Force as a cosmic threat on a far greater level than Valkorion/Vitiate, despite the latter having over ten times the time.
- Sidious can defy the Force on a galactic/universal scale, far outpacing Vitiate's planetary feats.
A third point in Sidious's favor.
Given that you literally get retconned by sources putting her over individual Mortis Anchorites, your attempt fails. Mine is perfectly noncontradictory and is stated outright. But nice try.
Is there a source putting the Son over DE Sidious? Is there a source contradicting Sidious threatening to consume all of space? What about Sidious being the "most powerful force of evil the galaxy has ever known"? Why are you applying such blatant double standards to everything?
Wrong. Oh, so very wrong. He did to Ziost what he did to Nathema:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t654628.html
How does any of that thread prove that the Force was removed from Ziost?
Then there's the fact that we have actual cutscenes that they can project themselves across space and cause capital ships to lose power instantly, before dominating the minds of the crew and even Jedi as strong as post-Act III Hero of Tython:
LMFAO, so you're comparing making ships "lose power" to swallowing entire fleets with wormholes?
We know they've destroyed fleets before:
Wow, how conveniently vague. It seems based on what you just showed that they do this by making ships lose power and TP'ing crew members.
So now we also know that:
- Sidious can casually create hyperspace wormholes from across the galaxy, and these wormholes have teleported and destroyed entire fleets of capital ships and super star destroyers, and pinpoint teleported individuals (e.g. Luke) across galactic distances, and that they can tear the surfaces off of worlds; Valkorion has never done this, and the most you can point to are some dread masters making ships lose power.
That's a fourth point in Palpatine's favor.
The other point to note is that Sidious accomplishes all of these things in a tiny fraction of the time Valkorion has, so he clearly has a far greater connection with the Force. This isn't just about potential - it's also a question of ability (RotS Anakin can likely learn a complicated Force technique faster than TPM Anakin). Sidious is just more powerful across the board.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I assume you mean Lord Dramath caught him off-guard. And if you watch the fight you'll notice that Dramath overpowers him for several seconds and then ragdolls him after very clearly confronting him head on and giving Valkorion plenty of time to defend himself, so no, he doesn't catch him off guard at all unless if Valkorion is a total moron (well...).
He's been empowered by the Holocron though, that's the point here.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Honestly your best course of action here is to just admit it's an inconsistent low-end feat for Valkorion and focus on his better moments, not to pretend it isn't a horrible showing.
Or, you know, you could perhaps actually stop pretending that I used your point about the battle being a representation of a TP battle. Which means Dramath attempted to destroy Tenebrae's will. He failed and was obliterated whilst trying.
Concession accepted.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
How does this address the fact that Sidious easily handles his suicide blast while Valkorion gets ragdolled by a spirit Lord Dramath?BTW, that's not what "lying" means. You literally didn't say anything that contradicted anything I said.
You're literally comparing a visual representation of TP with a physical Force exchange. You said it yourself.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Brand, who at this point is likely a true Force ghost, makes it clear that he can't hold Sidious for long (indeed, maybe for like the 15 seconds it would take for his dialogue), and ultimately takes him to the Netherworld to have everyone hold him back.
He clearly isn't a Force Ghost as we see him die after this point.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why would Brand lie and give Luke a false sense of confidence, thus endangering the entire galaxy again? He obviously knows this, perhaps through Force revelation or some other mechanism. He's not an unreliable source. We know that Palpatine doesn't return even though he had returned from Chaos before.
You realise it isn't possible for him to have been taken to Chaos? Brand took his spirit with him to the Netherworld, whole other ball game.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is what we know:- Sidious escapes Chaos after RotJ; Valkorion never accomplishes this.
Tenebrae's spirit was destroyed completely, though. You know, the function of the Holocron.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- Sidious's spirit wanders through space without a nexus or anchor; Valkorion never accomplishes this.
Sidious' spirit is specifically stated to have had multiple means of aid. Tenebrae was casually body swapping, teleporting, travelling across sectors, possessing populations, creating immortal manifestations of the dark side with his raw power and death waving an entire planet; causing everything in orbit to go to shit. Tenebrae utterly laughs at Sheev in this category. Despite that pathetically misinformed claim you and Az concocted on the matter in that thread.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- Sidious needs to be held from returning by both the Force and every Jedi in history...Valkorion just needs to get TP'd by like six people and a holocron he modified when he was ten.
You know, I love how you interpret his words so literally but when it comes to other, less fallible quotes from SWTOR, you and your friends pretend it's all worthless and lacks any credibility. By the way, him vaguely saying 'all the Jedi who came before us' doesn't equate to 'we need all of the Jedi who came before us to trap him'.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
We also know that:- Sidious no-sells Galen Marek's final, oneness attack that made his previous displays of power look like nothing; Valkorion gets ragdolled and tossed around by Lord Dramath, who he allegedly owned when he was like 10.
These are clearly two points in Sidious's favor.
Sidious walked it off, that doesn't equate to no-selling. There's a clear disconnect between Sidious screaming in 'lascivious pain' from Marek returning his attack back on him, and your claim he no-sells an attack many magnitudes greater than any power Marek had been using prior.
You realise, again, that Tenebrae walks off the attack despite being 'vulnerable' whilst facing a dues ex machina literally stated to be his sole weakness. He can't be destroyed by anyone, at this point. Without the Holocron they get utterly godstomped.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
This literally does nothing to establish your argument in the slightest. Vitiate quite obviously is not as powerful as VotJ Jerec, who has the ability to snuff out star systems with a thought and do all other sorts of things quite palpably beyond the capabilities of Vitiate who gets disarmed by Meetra's saber throw and nearly incinerated by an astromech droid's flamethrower. To suggest that VotJ Jerec is seriously weaker than Vitiate is crazier than anything Azronger has ever argued.
According to a character he would have the power to snuff out star systems. By the way, lowballing Tenebrae with tunnel vision when Jerec with omniscience can't come to the realisation that Katarn can channel Force ghosts to cut him off from the Force, is pretty laughable at this point. (By the way, Ziost wasn't snuffing out star systems per se, but it was in fact a solar system tier feat. But I wouldn't want to trouble your mind with that just yet.)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Anyway, you proceed to completely ignore every actual point I made demonstrating that the thought bomb and Nathema aren't really analogous and that the VotJ is [b]obviously more powerful than Vitiate or basically any Force user unrelated to Mortis in the mythos. The thought bomb may have been inspired by Nathema, but it very clearly exhibits different effects, not the least of which is that it eventually produces a nexus that gives Force users powers comparable to pre-crisis Superman. This is far, far crazier than Palpatine's "all of space" quote. It's just absurd and IDK why you're still parroting it.[/B]
Yet you continue to ignore the obvious parallels between the two, and the more devastating effects of one over the other. Nor is ignoring the fact that Tenebrae became physically and spiritually immortal because of it doing you much good. The effects of the empowerments differ, but the undeniable parallels of what the sources of power are, do not.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Concession accepted. He's not on VotJ Jerec's level, as everyone knows.
As if anyone but you was arguing whether or nor Tenebrae could bust stars in the first place.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Way to miss the point. Vitiate needed way more help for Nathema. Your point is that he maintains the void afterwards, and Sidious very clearly maintains the imbalance until his death on Endor.
Yeah, because it isn't as if the most game-breaking Force-user ever, with his son in tow, hadn't returned to the light and killed him. Because obviously the fvcking Chosen One wouldn't have any effect on the imbalance he's prophesied to restore.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
😂 So Sidious's power growth is being driven by a Mortis Anchorite, and it's clearly a permanent growth since he doesn't get weaker after either the Son's death or RotJ? Wow, that blows Nathema out of the water, doesn't it? Remember, it's not about how impressive the circumstances of the growth were - it's that the growth happened.
You're actually acting as if you're mentally impaired. The Son caused a massive dark side shift, as reflected in the Mortis story arc, which outright caused irrepairable damage. The Son's death was completely irrelevant. The Son fvcked things up for the Force permanently. Sidious' power growth is totally irrelevant next to this.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
BTW, this is clearly not a rebuttal to the imbalance because the four major events (initial unbalancing, Chosen One, Plagueis prologue/epilogue, and end of RotJ) all coincide [b]exactly with Plagueis and Sidious's timelines. The Son's actions may have been a separate factor, but the imbalance remains both before and after his own story.[/B]
Which as I just said doesn't matter because the effects of Mortis aren't suddenly gone because the Son perishes.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yet the imbalance existed before Vader, so that doesn't counter my point at all.
You're assuming causality as opposed to the contributions of numerous involved parties. Yes, it's highly coincidental that Sidious is alive for the duration. But I see it more as him benefitting rather than him causing, per sé.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious very consciously unbalances the Force in the PT-era. I see no reason to throw all the explicit statements that he does this away because he doesn't bother to do it again when he returns and isn't trying to hide or anything.
I'm not saying they're incorrect entirely, but that they lack the context of the over-all picture.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nonsense. The unbalancing is clearly framed as the penultimate cosmic danger to that point in galactic history. In addition to it being described as an unprecedented shifting in the tide of the Force that clouds the precognitive abilities of the entire Jedi Order, it leads to the Force birthing the most powerful being in the history of Star Wars (alongside the Father) to stop those responsible. You do realize that the [b]entire point of Anakin's existence is to restore balance to the Force right?[/B]
I mean, in the context of the Darth Plagueis novel, yes. But, it's not even the only time such a thing has happened. Krayt's entire era is also stated to have lacked any balance to the Force, with the dark side holding sway in its stead:
In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force. Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere.
- Legacy Era Campaign Guide
Honestly, given the current trend:
Reborn Krayt ~ FOTJ Luke > LotF Luke > NJO Luke > SotP Luke > JA Luke > DE Luke > DE Sheev.
Things ain't looking too god for ol' Shrimpatine.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So we know that:- Sidious is viewed by the Force as a cosmic threat on a far greater level than Valkorion/Vitiate, despite the latter having over ten times the time.
Yeah, you keep believing that.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- Sidious can defy the Force on a galactic/universal scale, far outpacing Vitiate's planetary feats.A third point in Sidious's favor.
Are you comparing partially causing an imbalance; that is repeated in Krayt's time, to literally causing the Force to cease to exist through sheer force of presence in the galaxy?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is there a source putting the Son over DE Sidious? Is there a source contradicting Sidious threatening to consume all of space? What about Sidious being the "most powerful force of evil the galaxy has ever known"? Why are you applying such blatant double standards to everything?
Yes, because DE Sidious isn't capable of destroying the universe by merely existing outside of Mortis. There are no double standards, 'Valkorion' is stated to be the most powerful enemy the Outlander ever faced. Thus, Tenebrae > the World Razer. The eternal family is stated to be the most powerful threat there is in TOR, this includes the Zakuul Pantheon. Who we already know Temebrae could beat in the first place.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
How does any of that thread prove that the Force was removed from Ziost?
It proves that Ziost and Nathema were the same ritual, thus the same damn thing happened to both planets. The only differemce was the trigger.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO, so you're comparing making ships "lose power" to swallowing entire fleets with wormholes?Wow, how conveniently vague. It seems based on what you just showed that they do this by making ships lose power and TP'ing crew members.
So now we also know that:
- Sidious can casually create hyperspace wormholes from across the galaxy, and these wormholes have teleported and destroyed entire fleets of capital ships and super star destroyers, and pinpoint teleported individuals (e.g. Luke) across galactic distances, and that they can tear the surfaces off of worlds; Valkorion has never done this, and the most you can point to are some dread masters making ships lose power.
That's a fourth point in Palpatine's favor.
That's not the point, at all, on any level. FFS. The point is, The Dread Masters can project their power across the galaxy. The Dread Masters are 'insignificant' compared to pre-Ziost Tenebrae, who was even controlling them prior to his Dark Temple death; whilst pulling off a metric shit ton of other incredible feats simultaneously. Tenebrae replicating their power but on far higher magnitudes is very obviously within his ability. Never-freaking-mind Tenebrae after Ziost.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The other point to note is that Sidious accomplishes all of these things in a tiny fraction of the time Valkorion has, so he clearly has a far greater connection with the Force. This isn't just about potential - it's also a question of ability (RotS Anakin can likely learn a complicated Force technique faster than TPM Anakin). Sidious is just more powerful across the board.
Yes, which is why Sheev is ultimately inferior in every regard. Tenebrae has been mastering every aspect of the Force.
Speaking of which. I have a question for you, how would Sheev go about making everything around him freeze, thus rendering his opponents helpless?