Originally posted by Scribble
I believe a lot of younger Muslims are more progressive with their views on homosexuality, like I said I think it'd be interesting to see a poll aimed just at younger Muslims with the same questions asked.Gender roles and Islam is also an issue, but again, I think with younger Muslims you'd see a very different picture in what they'd say about gender equality.
Interesting, how old was the Orlando shooter?
Originally posted by SurturIt makes sense, though. The closer you get to a densely packed community, the more hard line you'll probably get in beliefs. Younger Muslims are right to criticise the findings – I mean if there's one thing hardline Muslims are known for, it's being outspoken about their beliefs. Why would they deny the beliefs they take pride in?
Lol of course the Muslim community criticized the findings. Why does that surprise you?
Originally posted by SurturDoes that have anything to do with British Muslims? We don't really get the whole massacre thing over here, not sure if you've noticed that. And I'm not saying ALL young British Muslims are totally accepting of everyone, that'd be ridiculous.
Interesting, how old was the Orlando shooter?
Originally posted by Scribble
Does that have anything to do with British Muslims? We don't really get the whole massacre thing over here, not sure if you've noticed that. And I'm not saying ALL young British Muslims are totally accepting of everyone, that'd be ridiculous.
But now you're talking about how it's just older muslims who have these more radical beliefs. So it goes beyond Britain.
Originally posted by Scribble
I believe a lot of younger Muslims are more progressive with their views on homosexuality, like I said I think it'd be interesting to see a poll aimed just at younger Muslims with the same questions asked.Gender roles and Islam is also an issue, but again, I think with younger Muslims you'd see a very different picture in what they'd say about gender equality.
What I'm saying is that sure, you may *believe* so, but unless you provide statistical data saying the same, then you don't have a point.
Saying you have a hunch about it does not constitute an objective argument.
The only thing that needs to be done really to refute your point is that someone can just point out that s/he has a feeling that young Muslims share the radicalized views of their parents. Very possible 👆
Sorry to be so curt about it.
Originally posted by SurturNo, you're putting words in my mouth. 'Radical' has nothing to do with it, just because a Muslim is homophobic, doesn't make them a terrorist sympathiser or potential terrorist. All I'm saying is that there is that I'd like to see that same poll but just aimed at young British Muslims, so we can see the result, and that my personal belief would show a more progressive side of British Islam.
But now you're talking about how it's just older muslims who have these more radical beliefs. So it goes beyond Britain.
Originally posted by Scribble
It makes sense, though. The closer you get to a densely packed community, the more hard line you'll probably get in beliefs. Younger Muslims are right to criticise the findings – I mean if there's one thing hardline Muslims are known for, it's being outspoken about their beliefs. Why would they deny the beliefs they take pride in?
I could give statistics for other countries for how Muslims believe as well, but they would just be dismissed with the same "1,000 people can't accurately represent an entire people" which has some merit, but on the other hand that is how they arrive at pretty much all the stats we see when these news groups toss out certain figures. They aren't literally going and asking the opinion of every single person in that group. Which would also mean we couldn't trust stats even if those stats said most muslims weren't hateful, correct?
On top of that, if polling only a small number of people can't accurately represent anything then why would a poll aimed at young Muslims necessarily prove anything? Since they wouldn't actually go speak to every single young muslim.
Originally posted by StigmaBe as curt as you like, I speak to young British Muslims every day so I feel that I have a fair understanding of them and their differences to their parents. I'm not trying to win an argument here, so I don't need to give you statistics to state a well-informed opinion.
Maybe they are, maybe quite the opposite....What I'm saying is that sure, you may *believe* so, but unless you provide statistical data saying the same, then you don't have a point.
Saying, you have a hunch about it does not constitute an objective argument.
The only thing that needs to be done really to refute your point is that someone can just point out that s/he has a feeling that young Muslims share the radicalized views of their parents. Very possible 👆
Sprry to be so curt about it.
Originally posted by SurturStatistics should always be taken with a grain of salt, yes.
I could give statistics for other countries for how Muslims believe as well, but they would just be dismissed with the same "1,000 people can't accurately represent an entire people" which has some merit, but on the other hand that is how they arrive at pretty much all the stats we see when these news groups toss out certain figures. They aren't literally going and asking the opinion of every single person in that group. Which would also mean we couldn't trust stats even if those stats said most muslims weren't hateful, correct?On top of that, if polling only a small number of people can't accurately represent anything then why would a poll aimed at young Muslims necessarily prove anything? Since they wouldn't actually go speak to every single young muslim.
Originally posted by SurturOh yes, we can label them as biased so let's just ignore all the legitimate points they are making. 🙄
Lol of course the Muslim community criticized the findings. Why does that surprise you?
Originally posted by SurturWhich is why making blanket claims like "half of muslims in the UK are bad people" based on any such statistic is a terrible argument.
I could give statistics for other countries for how Muslims believe as well, but they would just be dismissed with the same "1,000 people can't accurately represent an entire people" which has some merit, but on the other hand that is how they arrive at pretty much all the stats we see when these news groups toss out certain figures. They aren't literally going and asking the opinion of every single person in that group. Which would also mean we couldn't trust stats even if those stats said most muslims weren't hateful, correct?On top of that, if polling only a small number of people can't accurately represent anything then why would a poll aimed at young Muslims necessarily prove anything? Since they wouldn't actually go speak to every single young muslim.
Originally posted by Scribble
Statistics should always be taken with a grain of salt, yes.
Okay but then the problem is when you have a side that brings up a statistic that portrays muslims in a negative light people could say it's to be taken with a grain of salt..but at the same time these same proponents of muslims tend to also be fond of using statistics when they portray muslims in a more positive light.
But then it really means we have no way of knowing just how many muslims do possess these hateful feelings then. It could be a little or it could be a lot and that makes me uncomfortable.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh yes, we can label them as biased so let's just ignore all the legitimate points they are making. 🙄Which is why making blanket claims like "half of muslims in the UK are bad people" based on any such statistic is a terrible argument.
That's fine, but then I expect you to have similar reactions to blanket claims that portray them in a positive manner as well.
Originally posted by Scribble
Be as curt as you like, I speak to young British Muslims every day so I feel that I have a fair understanding of them and their differences to their parents.
But I also bet you don't know a "representative" number of young Muslims, as in 100 or a 1000, or more.
I myself have a few friends that are Muslims and live in Poland, and are moderate.
It does not negate the worldwide data, though.
Originally posted by Scribble
I'm not trying to win an argument here, so I don't need to give you statistics to state a well-informed opinion.
Admittedly so does experience, but this is just a part of the bigger picture, for everyone's experience is naturally limited.
Originally posted by SurturYeah, the uncertainty of existence is a terrifying thing, it's just something you learn to deal with as you get older, I guess. Can't be scared of everything you don't know, if you did that you'd never get a wink of sleep.
Okay but then the problem is when you have a side that brings up a statistic that portrays muslims in a negative light people could say it's to be taken with a grain of salt..but at the same time these same proponents of muslims tend to also be fond of using statistics when they portray muslims in a more positive light.But then it really means we have no way of knowing just how many muslims do possess these hateful feelings then. It could be a little or it could be a lot and that makes me uncomfortable.
Originally posted by Scribble
Yeah, the uncertainty of existence is a terrifying thing, it's just something you learn to deal with as you get older, I guess. Can't be scared of everything you don't know, if you did that you'd never get a wink of sleep.
Yeah you can try to pass it off as this, but the funny thing is..not knowing how many Christians are hateful doesn't really make me that uncomfortable. I wonder why?
Originally posted by StigmaI find personal experience to be the best way of understanding one's own community. I also went to a 95% Muslim secondary school, the rates of violence and knife crime there were much lower than the other two neighbouring schools, which were much more religiously diverse. And we're not talking about world-wide, and haven't been for a long time, you should look back a few pages so you can get the thread of the discussion. Right now, I have no idea what you are arguing or stating, really.
I see.But I also bet you don't know a "representative" number of young Muslims, as in 100 or a 1000, or more.
I myself have a few friends that are Muslims and live in Poland, and are moderate.
It does not negate the worldwide data, though.
I see. Although data and research greatly enhance one''s understanding of real life issues 👆
Originally posted by SurturYeah, I wonder that too.
Yeah you can try to pass it off as this, but the funny thing is..not knowing how many Christians are hateful doesn't really make me that uncomfortable. I wonder why?
Well, it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I wonder why that is, as well? Will we ever know why certain things make us feel a certain way? iunno.
Originally posted by SurturWell I agree with Scribble on that front, most poll based statistics should be taken with a pinch of salt, and a heaping if their methods indicate a skewed result.
That's fine, but then I expect you to have similar reactions to blanket claims that portray them in a positive manner as well.
After all the polls got Brexit wrong didn't they?