Meetra Surik vs. Darth Vader

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So she's not actually visible when the orange tendrils appear on screen, which is probably when she raised her hand. 😉

The characters in KotOR II raise their hands before the orange tendrils come up, and you don't see her retracting her hand after the Drain either. Case closed.

Anyway that's not the ****ing point. 🙂 I'm asking you what you mean by "off-panel" when referring to Traya's incident with Sion and Nihilus, because I meant after Sion beats the crap out of her and fades to black, I get the impression you mean when Sion and Nihilus weren't visible, or something.

Why would it matter if it fades to black after she got beaten up? She was already Severed/Drained by that point.

Originally posted by MythLord
How is me jokingly saying "I'll say Surik > Vader, if I need to, since I respect your Shaak wank" an example of the above, Lady Sel?

Because despite it being in jest, neither me or AP have said we believe the Exile would win this confrontation.

Ah, Zoltan, assumptions to the last.

Did you play the video game? I'm going to guess otherwise. Not that it matters, because I have an entire list of Galen's lightning feats.

I asked for Carthage and/or Myth to provide something Galen/Vader did in terms of Force combat. Which was why I stated that using Force feats outside of such circumstances isn't relevant to my argument nor do they serve as sn even slightly effective counter.

Moreover, not to 'humiliate' you in turn or anything, because I couldn't give a shit about this forum's obsession with dick measuring contests in the slightest. You clearly didn't understand what I was evidencing. In the other thread, Fresh stated I'd provided no evidence for Meetra having strong Force defense showings. Thus the post you quoted as evidence of some 'double-standards', was a general post to make evident of how powerful Meetra actually was. Given Carthage treats Atris like a 'featless' doormat, I thought it prudent to substantiate a feat of Atris', in an attempt to show otherwise.

You can go back to being irrelevant to the debate now, good boy.

Originally posted by Selenial
Because despite it being in jest, neither me or AP have said we believe the Exile would win this confrontation.

Even if we follow AP's arbitrary position that telekinesis against objects is magically distinct from telekinesis against Force users, Vader is still far more relevant next to Palpatine than Meetra was next to an inferior Vitiate. Like, by a lot. A ridiculous amount, really.

It isn't arbitrary, it's called an inconsistent IP. 😂

So now we're going down to the power-scaling again, are we? This should be entertaining.

😕 So if we're not considering feats of environmental manipulation for some reason, what do we have other than powerscaling? Feats against Force users can only be relevant if we know how powerful said Force users are, .ie powerscaling.

In this case, Vader's place compared to powerful Force users is significantly greater than Meetra's. He's considered possibly the greatest Jedi killer of all time, has potential to rival Sidious's, was given a place in the Korriban council, etc. Darth Caedus, who has Skywalker-potential and is already in his thirties, was considered so uber-powerful because he had surpassed Darth Vader. Vader is implied to be far more powerful than Kar Vastor, who was cowing Windu. There's no reason to think that Meetra is on Vader's tier because she can beat someone who can beat a bunch of people who could twirl their lightsabers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Moreover, not to 'humiliate' you in turn or anything, because I couldn't give a shit about this forum's obsession with dick measuring contests in the slightest. You clearly didn't understand what I was evidencing. In the other thread, Fresh stated I'd provided no evidence for Meetra having strong Force defense showings. Thus the post you quoted as evidence of some 'double-standards', was a general post to make evident of how powerful Meetra actually was. Given Carthage treats Atris like a 'featless' doormat, I thought it prudent to substantiate a feat of Atris', in an attempt to show otherwise.

1. Yeah the exile has exceptional force defenses:

2. So you can post Atris object feats to show how powerful she is to make Meetra look better, but somehow Galen's object feats aren't a measure of his power? Got it.

3. You want some combat feats for Galen? Fine:

He can oneshot Kazdam:

Outside his droid golem shell, however, Paratus was more vulnerable to Sith lightning. What he couldn't absorb into the junk metal burned him and left him writhing in pain. The apprentice sent bolt after bolt hurtling into the tiny figure. It almost seemed that the fight would be over before it had really begun.

He repelled Vader's telekinetic assault:

He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked. Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away.

He exchanged a telekinetic battle with Vader:

And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.

He pulverized his own perfect clones:

From above came the sound of lightsabers activating, and he braced himself for another, more dangerous onslaught. These, the most normal looking of all the clones, spun, slashed, hacked, and stabbed at him from all sides, one-handed, two-handed, with all possible variations of lightsaber combat styles. Red-eyed and hate- filled, they fought each other, too, and the ones who had come before. There were no allies, just a sea of individuals. And yet... Confidence, determination, intelligence, and cunning-combined with physical strength and agility-the clones possessed every attribute he did, in greater or lesser degrees. He saw in their faces the same confusion he felt. They were all clones, so who was he to stand out from among them? What special qualities set him apart?

He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it. The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend. The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
😕 So if we're not considering feats of environmental manipulation, what do we have other than powerscaling? Feats against Force users can only be relevant if we know how powerful said Force users are, .ie powerscaling.

If you're using powerscaling, this should help you:

But the Inquisitor high above Laranth’s head had leapt, Force-lightning sparking from his hands in two deadly, dancing streams. Kaj turned and raised his hands, delivering a massive Force-push from every angle against the Inquisitor. One moment the Inquisitor was falling toward Laranth, power streaming from his hands—the next he was simply gone. Where he had been there was only a fine swirl of ash. In seconds it, too, was gone, tugged apart by the air currents above the street. Laranth had half fallen against a slab of tilted masonry and was staring up into the empty air; Jax and I-Five raced to her side, hurling aside obstacles as they ran—Jax using the Force, I-Five using his innate strength. Kaj breathed out a sigh of relief; the Twi’lek would be fine. He swung back to his own target now … and found it gone. He swept the area with the Force, uncaring at that moment if every Inquisitor in the sector felt him.

It did no good. The Inquisitor was gone. He let out a roar of rage that embedded a meter-long twist of durasteel in the nearby building. Far up the street, Probus Tesla, propped painfully in a deep window embrasure, watched as the Jedi and the droid he had sought gathered their companions and disappeared from sight. His first impulse when he had emerged from the rubble—where he had lain twisted painfully despite his effort to cocoon himself—was to continue the fight, to let his sheer rage empower him. But then he had seen that boy—that untrained adept—use the Force to … atomize Mas Sirrah. Destroy him so thoroughly that not even an echo of his Force signature remained. It was as if he had never existed. In his entire tenure as an Inquisitor, Tesla had never seen the Force used in such a way.

-- Coruscant Nights III: Patterns Of Force

Both Probus Tesla and Jax Pavan witnessed the Inquisitor's disintegration, and yet they both viewed Vader as the most powerful Force user they ever met:

No, Jax didn’t know what Darth Vader was capable of. Aboard the dying Far Ranger he thought he had seen him fail to manipulate Thi Xon Yimmon’s mind and have to settle, instead, for manipulating gravity. Still … “I’ve never known a Force-user as powerful as Vader ” he admitted. “Which only makes it more critical that we rescue Yimmon.”

--
Not only was Darth Vader the most powerful Force-user Tesla had ever known, he had always thought of him as a towering genius.

-- The Last Jedi

Noting that Jax Pavan was Kajin Savaros' master for a time, so he should be familiar with the latter's power.

So, Vader is more powerful than a guy who can literally pulverize powerful, fully trained Force users. That's very, very impressive.

^ thanks 👆

@Nargaroth getting knocked unconscious by Kavar is more impressive tho.

Where do you guys rank Kajin Savaros?

@Nargaroth, nice, very nice.

@Zoltan.

1. So your grand argument is two heavily pre-prime feats, and one where sge isn't even defending herself? I'm impressed.

2.Can you even read?

3.The first is impressive, but was basically just slowly killing him. Nowhere near incineration. The next two are against Vader himself, so whilst they're impressive, undoubtedly, that's creeping on circular logic. But I'll take it. 👆

The last one is really something, and I honestly can't believe it took ten pages before somebody finally posted one of the only relevant and comparable feats that can matter in this debate.

The feat is probably Starkiller's most impressive one, in my eyes, it is one you can legitimately throw up there with Plagueis. Marek legitimately reduces the clones to a mist of blood and blows tubes into millions of pieces.

The major detracting factor is that these clones have no real indication of having actually defended themselves from the attack. They were as is stated, fighting amongst themselves, not focusing on him. So it has to be treated as an unimpeded telekinesis feat, though still an incredibly impressive one.

The difference being that Lord Scourge and (presumably) Meetra were facing instant incineration from Nyriss' FLS, something they were, in Scourge's estimate, powerless to counter. Indicating that no defense could have stopped Nyriss' attack. Only somebody as powerful as Revan could have stopped such an immense assault, the same Revan capable of absorbing and physically tanking the 'infinitely' more powerful lightning of the Sith Emperor. Yet was still capable of healing himself from the injuries sustained, right after, is frankly crazy.

That's bonified Yoda tier shit from Revan.

The lightning Nyriss can bring to the fore is genuinely beyond the likes of Darth Bane or Darth Malgus. So the fact that a hindered Meetra, with a mere instinctual Force barrier, not a prepared Force defense, can absorb the brunt of such lightning, though be incapacitated temporarily, is a massive mark in her favor. It is definitely not a show of weakness at all.

Thus rendering the idea that Vader outright ragdoll stomps her, both unsubstantiated and baseless.

Vader wins a good fight, but he doesn't stomp at all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The characters in KotOR II raise their hands before the orange tendrils come up, and you don't see her retracting her hand after the Drain either. Case closed.

Why would it matter if it fades to black after she got beaten up? She was already Severed/Drained by that point.

Regardless forget it, I can work out on my own that when you said "off-screen" you mean within the contexts of the scene, not after the fact. As for whether they did gesture and we just didn't see it, I find that doubtful as well. One would at least expect audible confirmation that the Force was being used on her, but we don't even get that, nor visual confirmation through tendrils or some such, or really any sign at all that they are stripping her off her powers, of which their is no precedent in or outside the game.

This applies to them not needing to gesture either, there is simply no precedent for this, and instead in the game each and every time somebody is drained, some kind of gesture and/or visual confirmation is involved to inform the player, including when Sion & Nihilus themselves use these abilities. And no Traya's vanilla drain of the Council does not count, she was off panel, there being a brief delay before and after the tendrils appear in which we do not see what Traya is doing. And if anything, the restored content revealing that yes, some kind of gesture was involved, as does the fact that is how everyone frikken else uses it, well done for spotting that.

Regardless, as I said before but you chose to ignore, there is no visual confirmation of drain in the scene being discussed either, so it's a moot point. While the idea that the developers would choose to omit any indication of drain, be it through a gesture or a visual animation, in this particular and crucial moment, for no apparent reason other than to confuse the player, seems highly unlikely and isn't necessitated by any outside source. The KOTOR campaign guide, as I explained to Sel, only describing Sion as complicit in the act of Traya being drained, not necessarily that he himself actively drained her.

So that summarises my case, and it leaves us with two possibilities:

1. Nihilus' gesture that sent Traya flying into the wall was in fact an application of drain.

2. Nihilus with or without the help of Sion, drained Traya of her powers after the fade to black.

The latter, as I've said, is unlikely, because it stretches the imagination that a mere Force push would be enough to incapacitate her, and if it was, surely through rendering her unconscious.

But the idea that they did actually drain her after Nihilus' initial attack, despite their being zero indication of it occurring, is to perform mental gymnastics that are completed unnecessitated by the game or the companion material.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Even if we follow AP's arbitrary position that telekinesis against objects is magically distinct from telekinesis against Force users, Vader is still far more relevant next to Palpatine than Meetra was next to an inferior Vitiate. Like, by a lot. A ridiculous amount, really.

You've still yet to adress the argument that she wasn't as powerful at that point in time anyway, due to losing her wound.

Also, that analysis doesn't work given you're arguing Vader would ragdoll her, not win.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Only somebody as powerful as Revan could have stopped such an immense assault, the same Revan capable of absorbing and physically tanking the 'infinitely' more powerful lightning of the Sith Emperor. Yet was still capable of healing himself from the injuries sustained, right after, is frankly crazy.
[/B]

Your case is hilariously circular. You say that Meetra isn't so bad for being helpless against Nyriss's lightning because Nyriss's lightning is really powerful, and that Nyriss's lightning is really powerful...because Meetra would've died to it. Then you bring Revan in, .i.e. that a Vader-tier at best Force user casually reflected it, and try to spin it as a plus because Revan is so amazingly powerful...but he's amazingly powerful because he could take lightning that you scale off of the same Nyriss that you're trying to quantify using Revan!

Let's observe the facts:

1. Blowing up a frigate >>>>>...>>>...>>> disintegrating two guards and potentially disintegrating two Force users. The null hypothesis would be that Meetra and Scourge are more durable than a warship, which you would sort of have to establish for us.

2. One-shotting an AT-AT >>> disintegrating two guards and potentially disintegrating two Force users. The null hypothesis would be that Meetra and Scourge are more durable than an AT-AT, which you would sort of have to establish for us.

3. Revan casually deflecting Nyriss's charged lightning without struggle doesn't strike me as that impressive for Nyriss when Dooku's lightning was deflected by Yoda "far from easily".

Face it; disintegrating people is not as impressive as blowing up AT-ATs. You just claiming otherwise is not convincing us.

Originally posted by Selenial
You've still yet to adress the argument that she wasn't as powerful at that point in time anyway, due to losing her wound.

Also, that analysis doesn't work given you're arguing Vader would ragdoll her, not win.

"full power' Meetra got ragdolled by Nihilus, who is weaker than Revan Reborn, who has far inferior feats to Marek. 👆

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"full power' Meetra got ragdolled by Nihilus, who is weaker than Revan Reborn, who has far inferior feats to Marek. 👆

Ah.

So you're trolling 🙂 🙂 🙂

He's not.