Originally posted by Beniboybling
👆Anyway, yeah, Kreia ragdolling the Jedi Masters all at once is no less canon than Maul doing the same to Sidious imo.Bit of a double standard here don't you think? Only Nihilus is seen to gesture, Sion just looks on.
I mean, technically Maul doing it to Sidious Is canon.
And since there's quotes saying they both drained her, it's a little different.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Why do people keep saying it was the Council's collective might that stunned the Exile? It's clearly just Vrook who gestures.
They clearly state the three of them have the power, which supersedes visually eyeballing in-game animations. More importantly, the Exile makes no obvious attempt at defending herself.
Originally posted by SunRazerWell fair enough if that's how you interpret the scene, however I never really saw it in that way. Traya may be senile but one TK push shouldn't be enough to render her completely helpless, and too weak to even summon her lightsaber.
Not at all. Nihilus gestured for the TK, not Draining Kreia's powers. That's something that appears to have been done without gestures.
Whereas we have the voice over telling us that there "some powers against which there are no defence" indicating that what we are seeing is Traya being rendered helpless by drain.
If anything the former interpretation would suggest an even vaster gap between Traya and Nihilus, if he can incapacitate her that easily.
Originally posted by SelenialNo... it's not.
I mean, technically Maul doing it to Sidious Is canon.
And since there's quotes saying they both drained her, it's a little different.True but that doesn't necessarily mean he actively drained her, merely that he was complicit in the act. In the same way you might say "two men lured a woman into an alley and murdered her" when only one of them actually did the killing.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well fair enough if that's how you interpret the scene, however I never really saw it in that way. Traya may be senile but one TK push shouldn't be enough to render her completely helpless, and too weak to even summon her lightsaber.Whereas we have the voice over telling us that there "some powers against which there are no defence" indicating that what we are seeing is Traya being rendered helpless by drain.
If anything the former interpretation would suggest an even vaster gap between Traya and Nihilus, if he can incapacitate her that easily.
I didn't say the Push cut her off from the Force. I said Nihilus Pushed her whilst her attention was divided between him and Sion, and then the two (without gestures) Drained her powers, which is why she couldn't TK her saber. Sion then decided to add insult to injury by knocking her out physically, but it wasn't needed.
Originally posted by SunRazerDrained her powers without gesture? No offence but that's pretty stupid. 😬
I didn't say the Push cut her off from the Force. I said Nihilus Pushed her whilst her attention was divided between him and Sion, and then the two (without gestures) Drained her powers, which is why she couldn't TK her saber. Sion then decided to add insult to injury by knocking her out physically, but it wasn't needed.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Drained her powers without gesture? No offence but that's pretty stupid. 😬
There's clearly nobody gesturing for the "Drain Force" animation, nor the purple lightning or whatever it is that symbolizes that in-game. It's done without gestures. And if it's the Sever Force thing that some people like to believe it was, then that works as well. After all, the Council Members in the game were in the process of using Sever Force on Meetra, and they didn't gesture either.
Originally posted by SelenialSource? First I've heard of it. So those deleted scenes that feature Shaak Ti's (multiple) death's are Canon too?
According to Leland Che, any deleted scenes released by an official source are Canon.
This scene wasn't even completed, and we've got a description of the fight that says Sidious "never wavered" from his position of superiority, which that scene would plainly contradict.
Originally posted by Selenial
Im going to tell you what I told you last time, play the actual game before engaging me in debate further, you'll just embarrass yourself.
I have played it, hence why I counter your misinformation.
Originally posted by Selenial
It's not cut content that she dominates them. She knocks them all back several meters with a Force Wave, and when Vrook attempts to engage her she dominates him again.
I thought you were referring to when she's talking to them and decides to Force Crush/Whirlwind their arses in cut-content. Anyways, that Force Waves took them by surprise and later she just TKs Vrook back without actually damaging him. That's not a sign of utter domination 😬
Originally posted by Selenial
Kavar has stunned dozens of soldiers with a single force wave, and yes, striking Hanharr with telekinesis so powerful as to knock him out is impressive, given the ridiculous strength and stamina he displays throughout the game.
Yeah that's all impressive, but not nearly as impressive as Galen destroying thousands of droids in a "hurricane" of telekinesis while on his first visit to Raxus Prime, or Jax Pavan casually manipulating 20 meter long ships.
Originally posted by Selenial
We see the Assassins die, actually, on screen. She hasn't moved from when they first revealed themselves to her. The game files also mention her discarding them effortlessly, IIRC. It was most likely Dark Healing, though, a power she has shown herself incredibly proficient in.
We see them fall, but we don't know what the cause is. It could've been Drain, TP, TK even "Dark Healing".
Originally posted by Selenial
Please, list anything Jax has done that you think places him above them. I'm waiting.
Casually manipulating 20 meter long ships and parried Force Blasts from an unstable Force Wave that was enough to utterly crush an Inquisitor. Those are his best feats, anyway.
Originally posted by Selenial
And again, Traya's upper limit of telekinesis has never been displayed. Her speed and sense feats are indicative of overall power levels, so are certainly credible methods of judging her overall force capabilities.
Yeah that all sounds fair, but I don't think any of her achievements and hype are enough to place her at Vader level. Dooku level, maybe(noting I have Dooku higher than most of the forum), but not above that.
Originally posted by AncientPowerThere is a considerable difference between shitty animations and none at all, and every instance of drain in the game (including cut content featuring Nihilus draining Maul) features an animation of some kind. Yet here zero indication is given of the events Nova has described.
Kotor has always had shitty in-game animations. Ignoring those in favor of actual canon sources is the only safe bet.
And considering those sources don't make your interpretation necessary, there is nothing safe about these assumptions at all.
Originally posted by SunRazerWhat power are you referring to? Every act of drain in the game is signified by an animation of some kind. And in general powerful expressions of the Force require a gesture.
There's clearly nobody gesturing for the "Drain Force" animation, nor the purple lightning or whatever it is that symbolizes that in-game. It's done without gestures. And if it's the Sever Force thing that some people like to believe it was, then that works as well. After all, the Council Members in the game were in the process of using Sever Force on Meetra, and they didn't gesture either.
And the Council Members were not in the process of severing the Exile from the Force lol, Kreia interrupted them before they could begin.
Really the mental gymnastics being performed in this thread are astounding. At the very least the logical assumption to make would be to assume they drained her off screen, but this is just retarded. 😬
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Every act of drain in the game is signified by an animation of some kind. And in general powerful expressions of the Force require a gesture.
There are numerous instances of Drain being used without a gesture, but as you mentioned later, yes, it could be off-screen.
And the Council Members were not in the process of severing the Exile from the Force lol, Kreia interrupted them before they could begin.
I was under the impression that they had already begun to weaken her, hence why when Kreia dispelled their attempt by knocking them down with TK, the Exile faints. Some people take it as Kreia knocking out the Exile with that same TK wave, though. Whatever. Also, why wouldn't they begin immediately after freezing her?
Really the mental gymnastics being performed in this thread are astounding. At the very least the logical assumption to make would be to assume they drained her off screen, but this is just retarded. 😬
What mental gymnastics? And yes, they could have Drained her off-screen, how does that influence my point in any way whatsoever?
That said, if I forgot to mention that as a possibly earlier, my bad. And yes, it does sound more reasonable. Go with that if you want. Doesn't affect my stance.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Source? First I've heard of it. So those deleted scenes that feature Shaak Ti's (multiple) death's are Canon too?This scene wasn't even completed, and we've got a description of the fight that says Sidious "never wavered" from his position of superiority, which that scene would plainly contradict.
Obviously that would be overwritten then.
It was one of his keeper of the Holocron blogs, I'll have to go find it mmm
@Myth: before I reply, I want to check something. You say Traya is perhaps Dooku level, but not Vader. Do you think Vader could ragdoll someone on neutral ground, if Dooku couldn't ragdoll them after fighting through hundreds of Assassins, Storm Beasts, mental incapability while on a geyser of Dark Side energy? 🙂 🙂 🙂
Originally posted by SunRazerName one, I can only think of the way Nihilus and his followers are able to passively feed off those around them, but that's far from the same.
There are numerous instances of Drain being used without a gesture, but as you mentioned later, yes, it could be off-screen.
I was under the impression that they had already begun to weaken her, hence why when Kreia dispelled their attempt by knocking them down with TK, the Exile faints. Some people take it as Kreia knocking out the Exile with that same TK wave, though. Whatever. Also, why wouldn't they begin immediately after freezing her?One could infer that, but then that would only mean that Vrook's gesture commenced the ability, so there remains an indicator.
What mental gymnastics? And yes, they could have Drained her off-screen, how does that influence my point in any way whatsoever?Because it means that Nihilus can one shot Traya with TK, which is what you were contesting...That said, if I forgot to mention that as a possibly earlier, my bad. And yes, it does sound more reasonable. Go with that if you want. Doesn't affect my stance.
Which yes, has a profound effect on your stance that Traya wasn't far off him in power. Sorry.
Originally posted by SelenialYou've lost me. In cut content Traya lectures the Jedi while simultaneously choking them out. In the vanilla game, she only lectures them, while they draw their weapons ready to attack. The scene is different.
If that's your opinion, then your original statement is wrong, as the council being dealt with first is absent and doesn't alter the scene in any way.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Name one, I can only think of the way Nihilus and his followers are able to passively feed off those around them, but that's far from the same.
Muur Draining Krayt without an additional gesture. Palpatine leeching the life force off Byss without gesturing.
Also in the final product of KotOR II (ie. no cut content), Kreia kills the Jedi Council without gesturing. She just stands there and the orange energy beams go everywhere and they die.
One could infer that, but then that would only mean that Vrook's gesture commenced the ability, so there remains an indicator.
Why would a gesture commence a non-gesture attack? Now you're doing mental gymnastics.
Because it means that Nihilus can one shot Traya with TK, which is what you were contesting...
Which yes, has a profound effect on your stance that Traya wasn't far off him in power.
With her attention divided between him and Sion, yeah. And whether or not Nihilus and Sion gestured to Drain her has nothing to do with Nihilus TK'ing her.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You've lost me. In cut content Traya lectures the Jedi while simultaneously choking them out. In the vanilla game, she only lectures them, while they draw their weapons ready to attack. The scene is different.
Well you don't see the Maul scene as canon because it radically changes something from the fight and makes them start in different areas, if added in it changes the fight as a whole. The council being choked makes no difference.
Though you know I don't agree with that scene anyway, I've argued against her ragdolling them in that sense numerous times, argued against you no less. To me, her draining them is allowing them to sever themselves as Surik did, and live a "true" life, or die, and the Force Crush completely ruins that...