Originally posted by AncientPower
Because Vader isn't superior, or even equal. He's never dealt with lightning that can ash two powerful Force users. Nevermind absorbing and returning. nfact the only time he faced a tier of lightning that deadly, he died.Then we have Vitiate who'd easily kill Vader or Starkiller with an FLS.
You just said this discussion was irrelevant, kek.
Vaporizing people? You do realize that Starkiller has vaporized a 300 meter long cruiser, right?
Originally posted by Selenial
Well I'm on my phone right now so I can't post the quote, but the Exile is stated to have healed her wound after the end of the game, during her rebuilding of the Jedi Order.Some don't take that to mean she got weaker, but given the wound was the literal source of her power, and given the stark power differences displayed, it seems by far the most logical conclusion.
It's interesting watching which side people tend to fall on. It's almost entirely dependent on which era they tend to favour.
That's fair. I don't know what to make of that to be honest. I tend to think I don't favor any specific era. Typically I can pick any era while believing myself to debate from a neutral perspective. I'm in the.. "Most era's are pretty comparable in different regards" to other eras. There are exceptions, of course, such as the fact no one in Bane's era could hope to contend with Valkorion or Sidious. That being said, I take offense to the idea of there being "Many random Vader tier opponents." even if that's not the argument being made on hand.
So more to my curiosity where do you stand on Vader vs Kreia?
Originally posted by AncientPower
That's if you ignore the fact she had years to, in Sion's eyes, surpass Traya herself.
Let's assume for a moment, regarding Selenial's analysis, that Meetra was more powerful as a wound in the force. That she healed it and then lost a considerable amount of her power or at least enough to be noticeable. Wouldn't Sion be basing his analysis on her with the wound? Without the wound would she have the same potential?
Or are you two on a different page on how you rank the character?
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
That's fair. I don't know what to make of that to be honest. I tend to think I don't favor any specific era. Typically I can pick any era while believing myself to debate from a neutral perspective. I'm in the.. "Most era's are pretty comparable in different regards" to other eras. There are exceptions, of course, such as the fact no one in Bane's era could hope to contend with Valkorion or Sidious. That being said, I take offense to the idea of there being "Many random Vader tier opponents." even if that's not the argument being made on hand.
We are two pages of the same book, you and me. 👆
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You just said this discussion was irrelevant, kek.Vaporizing people? You do realize that Starkiller has vaporized a 300 meter long cruiser, right?
Did you just legitimately equate what a Force user can do to inanimate objrcts with what they can do against other Force users?
Good God.
You know you could just claim he superman lazored the thing at this rate, given how badly you're misrepresenting that feat.
How about a taste of your own fallacy? Seems appropriate:
So the great unmatched Force lightning of Galen Marek... can be blocked by Shaak Ti. I'm sure Nyriss is shaking in her boots, given she is powerful enough to incinerate a very powerful Sith Lord in Lord Scourge, who tanked Darth Xedrix's lightning and then cut Xedrix down, and a hindered Meetra Surik who has tanked Force lightning Storms from Darth Traya and Atris.
Because apparently, I haven't provided any evidence, let's begin shall we:
The Exile is indicated to be capable of blocking an 'onslaught' of lightsaber attacks, with her Force barrier:
To survive his onslaught, protect yourself with Force Barrier.
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
Whilst hindered by a 'massive geyser of dark side energy', Meetra Surik is indicated to be capable of defending against Sion's lightsaber attacks and Force drain:
The shattered Dark Jedi attacks you with a lightsaber and Drain Life; improve your chances the moment battle begins by protecting yourself with Energy Resistance.
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Guide
Atris is stated to be no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess, indicating that her potent Force drain, telekinesis and Force lightning storm powers aren't enough to defeat Meetra:
This door is cold to the touch, and there seems to be no conventional means of opening it.
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords[i]
NOTE: Atris doesn't even gesture when she opens, closes and seals those massive (presumably) durasteel doors with telekinesis. A nice comparison could be made here:
As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya [Atris] is a master of lightsaber combat. In addition, she commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force Storm."
- [i]Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
Atris'_pride is no match for the_Jedi_Exile's lightsaber prowess.
- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Darth Traya, despite being more powerful is still defeated by the Exile, despite utilising her vast telekinetic powers:
"Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest student."
- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.
- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Force Wave can stun Kreia's floating lightsabers.
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
She has pretty ridiculous defensive feats with the Force, which makes sense given she has achieved such a great mastery of the Force:
Achieved the form of Force mastery:
This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery.
- Knights of the Old Reoublic II: The Sith Lords
"It is a great technique that you have learned. Gifted only to the highest of Jedi Masters."
- Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
"This is among one of the greatest techniques of the Jedi Master - yet when one has seen all that you have, it is such a simple thing, you may wonder why you did not notice it before."
- Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Meetra Surik as a Jedi Master is stated to have gained supreme mastery over Force powers:
These characters gain supreme mastery with Force powers.
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
Meetra Surik achieved Enlightenment during the events of the Jedi Council meeting, increasing her presence in the Force, affording her greater augmentative and defensive prowess:
Force Aura, Force Valor, and Force Barrier applied in combination can turn the tide of any battle; this becomes even more effective when you learn Force Enlightenment.
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
This state of mind requires inner tranquility:
the inner tranquility necessary to find enlightenment.
- Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
Meetra Surik's light side presence can passively increase the combat potential of her crew:
bathing your team in light and increasing their combat potential.
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
Meetra Surik has a high level mastery of the Force, an enlightened understanding of its nature and her presence in the Force had a palpable effect on others around her. Her defensive showings, even on an extremely powerful dark side nexus like Malachor V or Dromund Kaas, are very high tier showings.
Originally posted by AncientPowerAgreed, if even Shaak Ti can block his lightning it must be pretty trashy.
You know you could just claim he superman lazored the thing at this rate, given how badly you're misrepresenting that feat.How about a taste of your own fallacy? Seems appropriate:
So the great unmatched Force lightning of Galen Marek... can be blocked by Shaak Ti. I'm sure Nyriss is shaking in her boots, given she is powerful enough to incinerate a very powerful Sith Lord in Lord Scourge, who tanked Darth Xedrix's lightning and then cut Xedrix down, and a hindered Meetra Surik who has tanked Force lightning Storms from Darth Traya and Atris.
Because apparently, I haven't provided any evidence, let's begin shall we:The Exile is indicated to be capable of blocking an 'onslaught' of lightsaber attacks, with her Force barrier:
An Exhausted/injured and mentally hindered Kylo Ren can do the same thing, not very impressive and won't save her from getting ragdolled
Whilst hindered by a 'massive geyser of dark side energy', Meetra Surik is indicated to be capable of defending against Sion's lightsaber attacks and Force drain:
Which again would mean something if Sion was comparable to Vader in anything. Resisting a force technique that he's shown no aptitude for doesn't mean she can resist someone who can melt durasteel, wield Freighters like toys, and can hurl platforms that can support Starships. Vader would implode Sion with a gesture, or literally just will him to stop living considering he's only known for being a peon
Atris is stated to be no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess, indicating that her potent Force drain, telekinesis and Force lightning storm powers aren't enough to defeat Meetra:
Half of the force powers you listed only occur in gameplay or exist in Prima sourcebook entries, who cares if she resists techniques that have no real gauge for how powerful they are. OMG she closed a door with TK, Jacen Solo in Traitor after wandering Coruscant for days slammed larger Durasteel doors that enclosed back an entire Senate chamber and Revan can do the same while drugged. Atris isn't even Darach tier in force abilities
Everything else you listed is just sourcebook entries with no bearing in feats she's performed in combat. We know she can't resist high power force attacks as Nyriss literally put her on her ass, Vader's telekinesis is so far above Nyriss's lightning its not worth a comparison. So how exactly does she resist having her neck snapped other than "Resisting" weaker Force user's attacks mainly in gameplay
😂
Originally posted by AncientPower
He's got pretty great lightning feats, but nothing compared to Nyriss' own lightning feats in a proper Force combat.
Vader can implode massive insects who can crush massive trees, repel blasterbolts, and have hides thicker and more durable than armor with a gesture, and he can melt durasteel by just being enraged, and crush TIE fighters. Nyriss's lightning is practically worthless in comparison to Vader's raw telekinetic power
So your entire argument is based on translating telekinetic effects on inanimate objects to what you can do in an actual Force exchange. That mixed with handwaving an entire list of accolades and techniques depicting how high tier the Exile's mastery of the Force has reached.
Darth Vader's telekinesis feats do not compare at all to incinerating two very powerful Force users in a Force exchange. Because, guess what genius, if he could translate his TK feats into actual domination in a Force exchange, he would be shredding Jedi alive with ease. Which everybody here knows isn't the case.
I could go around claiming that Meetra can shred groups of fodder with Stun 'n shit but I know that feats outside of an actual combat are irrelevant in the extreme.
You have all failed to show Vader dominating actual bonified Force users with actual Force feats that surpasses anything Traya did to the Jedi High Council or a dozen Sith Assassins, or to Darth Sion or the entire Ebon Hawk crew.
You've failed to bring up any actual bonified combat feats, besides Marek, that depict Vader being well beyond Nyriss as you claim, who puts almost all Sith in the mythos to shame with her Force lightning feats.
Until you've got an actual argument that suggests Vader is remotely ragdoll stomping such high tier Force users, I'll be waiting.
NOTE: I've been reading Vader content for the better half of two decades so you may as well give up now.
His most impressive combative feats are against his own apprentice, who has been matched by Shaak Ti in Force exchanges.
So your entire argument is based on translating telekinetic effects on inanimate objects to what you can do in an actual Force exchange. That mixed with handwaving an entire list of accolades and techniques depicting how high tier the Exile's mastery of the Force has reached.
Whether or not they're inanimate makes zero difference, and Vader has choked and or affected Starkiller's force barrier with his TK, Dominate Ferus Olin with the force (Ferus can hurl Durasteel doors), and we know per accolades he's more powerful than the likes of Gethzerion, Lumiya, Jerec, Kar Vastor, and other darksiders active during the OT era:
Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself.
-- Insider 65
Among other accolades that place him among the most powerful Sith lords in History and Palpatine calling his powers unparalleled.
He also doesn't need to shred them alive, the prompt was for anyone to suggest he can ragdoll her and he's honestly more than capable of that seeing as he's been able to affect the barriers of the likes of Ahsoka, Galen, Starkiller, and Ferus Olin.
I could go around claiming that Meetra can shred groups of fodder with Stun 'n shit but I know that feats outside of an actual combat are irrelevant in the extreme.You have all failed to show Vader dominating actual bonified Force users with actual Force feats that surpasses anything Traya did to the Jedi High Council or a dozen Sith Assassins, or to Darth Sion or the entire Ebon Hawk crew.
They aren't irrelevant when the scale at which they operate are vastly above anything shown by the people she's come into contact with. Please show me anything to suggest Vader can't kill random Mook Jedi or Sith, when he;s affected the barriers of people I listed. Meetra's barrier utterly failed to protect her from a far inferior force user, so please show me anything that suggests she doesn't get tooled for a second time. Since her force barrier sucks and all
You've failed to bring up any actual bonified combat feats, besides Marek, that depict Vader being well beyond Nyriss as you claim, who puts almost all Sith in the mythos to shame with her Force lightning feats.His most impressive combative feats are against his own apprentice, who has been matched by Shaak Ti in Force exchanges.
You mean the same lightning that put Meetra on her ass? You keep bringing up her lightning when she utterly pales in comparison to Vader in all aspects of the force whether its accolades, feats, not to mention how Nyriss has nothing else noteworthy to her name. I'm still waiting for you to show me anything on how she's a notable sorceress, oh wait she has no feats in that area!
You posted a gameplay gif of Shaak Ti absorbing lightning, which ok so what other force users can do the same with their sabers? Shaak Ti can't disintegrate frigates, blast holes through Corellian cruisers, or destroy so much rubble that it creates a cloud that soars over a planet. Galen as of his duel with Vader with decimate Shaak Ti or Nyriss
You really don't get it in so many ways.
Meetra isn't Ferus Olin or Starkiller, she's tanked attacks from Traya and ended her regardless. Traya easily stomping powerful Jedi Council members who are certainly not 'mooks' is well within Vader tier, no matter how badly you try and lowball the entire era.
Darth Nyriss' Bane+ tier lightning has kmocked Meetra over amd kept her down. Importantly you lack, as usual, any context in your arguments. Firstly, Meetra only raised an instinctual Force barrier to save herself from the worst of Nyriss' lightning. She didn't have any time to prepare a proper Tutaminis defensive and yet still held off lightning that has husked armoured guards. Perhaps even more importantly, this is a dark side nexus that has even hindered FOTJ Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the mythos.
Treating that feat as anything less than pretty damn impressive is straight up ludicrous. Noting that Nyriss' lightning feats are easily comparable to Starkiller's, who has put Vader down repeatedly with lightning.