Originally posted by NaiWhat are Vader's best feats without having an unbalanced force to aid his dark side exploits? Attempting to make "but he was amped by xxx" comments when trying to argue in favor for movie era dark siders is a joke.
Just for any PT fans reading this.
This is the de facto reply from now on to the 'nexus' argument. You can either accept your favourite Sith characters were always amped by a galactic scaled nexus influencing every single one of their feats - or simply concede . No double standards.
🙄
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmao Nai, you brought authorial intent into this to explain Wankatine's power.
Nope. I brought up the lack of a certain form of authorial intent regarding Dark Empire Sidious, who still has the in-universe explanation of feeding upon the population of Byss to empower himself, to be more powerful than his boosted RotS incarnation.
Also thank you for not countering one of my points add all. 👆
And for the record:
The concept of the Chosen One / Unbalancing of the Force was introduced long before "Darth Plagueis". It is already in effect since "The Phantom Menace" (where the myth of the Chosen One is first mentioned) and is encorporated directly (in form of weakening / strengthening Jedi / Sith) since "Attack of the Clones". So that concept would still apply to all Legends feats of Vader in sources released post 1999 / 2002. Which is, well, pretty much everything being used here. 😉 And I'm not even going to start lecturing people here on alternate depictions of the same events across different forms of media and their effects on the "canon" storyline.
@Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Just for any PT fans reading this.This is the de facto reply from now on to the 'nexus' argument. You can either accept your favourite Sith characters were always amped by a galactic scaled nexus influencing every single one of their feats - or simply concede . No double standards.
🙄
This is not a question of double-standards. I have absolutely no idea if Plagueis is correct and the Dark Side was stronger in the time of the Ancient Sith for example, which is, after all, called their "Golden Age". There is, also obviously, the fact that most Ancient Sith were carrying trinket, amulets, crystals and whatnot to boost their connection to the force / force abilities / force mastery.
But we have also no idea to what extend those gimmicks or a nexus could and did affect abilities, much like we don't have much of an idea how much the "balance shift" did boost the abilities of the PT era Sith. The fact remains, that there was a boost, though. And there is also the fact that Plagueis apparently considered himself so far below the Ancients before that shift, that he considered their actions exeggerated myths. And given the nature of the SW source material, there is even the chance that they were that exactly. But he didn't consider himself weaker then those any longer with, essentially, everything within his reach.
So, in short: That balance shift may have caused effects that are even greater than being on a nexus - or not. Everybody's guess. The point for me is, that arguing characters out of their own context is a bad idea and applying it thoroughly would mean, that this fight is, essentially, RotS Anakin vs. pre-amulet Kun. That makes sense...ad least for the people who want Vader to win. 🙄
Originally posted by Nai
Nope. I brought up the lack of a certain form of authorial intent regarding Dark Empire Sidious,
What does this semantics distinction do to change my point? It still equally applies to Vader's feats predating the novel.
who still has the in-universe explanation of feeding upon the population of Byss to empower himself, to be more powerful than his boosted RotS incarnation.
Ah, there we go. 👆
(Though I'm not sure if he was still feeding on Byss as of DE)
Also thank you for not countering one of my points add all. 👆
No, you just countered it all yourself, lmao.
And for the record:
The concept of the Chosen One / Unbalancing of the Force was introduced long before "Darth Plagueis". It is already in effect since "The Phantom Menace" (where the myth of the Chosen One is first mentioned) and is encorporated directly (in form of weakening / strengthening Jedi / Sith) since "Attack of the Clones". So that concept would still apply to all Legends feats of Vader in sources released post 1999 / 2002. Which is, well, pretty much everything being used here. 😉 And I'm not even going to start lecturing people here on alternate depictions of the same events across different forms of media and their effects on the "canon" storyline.
Except your justification for extending this to combat ability came from the Plagueis novel.
Anyway, I'll ignore your blunder and respond to your other points now.
Originally posted by Nai
Because Sidious was just elevated to a position where he was Yoda's equal, obviously.And Obi-Wan was "competing" in sabers with an emotionally destabilized Anakin Skywalker.
So this boost that you think is comparable to Exar Kun using nexuses that can drive people insane and amulets that can release gigantic energy blasts can be offset by some emotional instability?
You may, once more, go and read "Darth Plagueis".There was a boost in the Dark Sider's power in general:
"All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
... that doesn't suggest a power boost in the slightest.
There are power suddenly gained, directly attributed to the shift:"On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die. Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had ressurected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence[...]But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
1. It's not stated that the two were able to do this because of the balance shift, and not because they were studying midichlorians alongside these efforts.
2. Midichlorian manipulation was explicitly relevant to the question of Force balance because it is mentioned that the Force itself would resist their attempts to manipulate said midichlorians - that doesn't mean the Force is resisting Sidious when he lifts a heavy object.
3. How is this relevant to combat?
In fact, the newfound power led Plaguies to the following idea:
"Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
It's never stated that that's because of the shift, lol.
Before that happened, he was speculating about the power of the Ancient Sith:"But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 5.
That was Plagueis before his prime, before he boosted his own midichlorian count. Plagueis also believed that he was more powerful than any sith he knew about that had come before him, and the back blurb of the hardcover confirms this. Sidious then questioned whether the Force had ever been so strong in anyone [compared to himself] following his getting a boost on killing his master.
So, urm: The shift did affect the entirety of the skills as force user, not just some selected abilities. It even increased the midi-chlorian count of Plagueis.
If it increased his count, then it made him permanently stronger.
Because, obviously, the entirety of "Dark Empire" was conceived before the Chosen One / Force Balance stuff was. 🙄
To counter the non-facetious response you gave later, where is the evidence that Palpatine was draining off of Byss after his rebirth? And you do realize that he was doing so long before even RotJ, right? So we're to believe he grew so much more powerful personally as to offset this reset? Why weren't dark siders who survived Palpatine all complaining about growing weaker following his death? Why do we never hear about this once, and why is there no apparent correlation?
In either case, even if you were right, there's no way to quantify this boost, and so it's just sophistic to try to lowball Vader's feats in this manner when he is only ever depicted in this context.
Originally posted by Nai
Did you, by chance, read a novel called "Darth Plagueis"?Because Sidious was just elevated to a position where he was Yoda's equal, obviously. And Obi-Wan was "competing" in sabers with an emotionally destabilized Anakin Skywalker.
You may, once more, go and read "Darth Plagueis".
There was a boost in the Dark Sider's power in general:
"All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
There are power suddenly gained, directly attributed to the shift:
"[b]On the same day
they had allowed Venamis to die. Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had ressurected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence[...]But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.In fact, the newfound power led Plaguies to the following idea:
"Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
Before that happened, he was speculating about the power of the Ancient Sith:
"But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 5.
So, urm: The shift did affect the entirety of the skills as force user, not just some selected abilities. It even increased the midi-chlorian count of Plagueis.
Because, obviously, the entirety of "Dark Empire" was conceived before the Chosen One / Force Balance stuff was. 🙄 [/B]
Originally posted by The Ellimist
What does this semantics distinction do to change my point? It still equally applies to Vader's feats predating the novel.
Except it doesn't because the concept is already there since - at least - AotC.
Ah, there we go. 👆(Though I'm not sure if he was still feeding on Byss as of DE)
He was.
No, you just countered it all yourself, lmao.
Except: I didn't. I just made something obvious that is around since AotC, which you - for whatever reason - haven't seen as such.
Except your justification for extending this to combat ability came from the Plagueis novel.
Urm. Where do you get the idea from, that is was limited to certain abilities? Pointing to AotC: "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished." - Mace Windu. I don't see any mentioning of certain abilities. This is a general statement that also applies to combat related uses of the Force - obviously. And then, the opposite is true for the Sith.
So this boost that you think is comparable to Exar Kun using nexuses that can drive people insane and amulets that can release gigantic energy blasts can be offset by some emotional instability?
Since the emotional instability would affect the Force user and not necessarily his ability to use the Force - just his will to do so: Yes. But since you made the point: What is Vader going to do against those amulets that can release gigantic energy blasts? Oh. Wait. You have removed that equipment from Kun for whatever reason. Maybe, because he would just blast Vader into oblivion?
... that doesn't suggest a power boost in the slightest.
I'm afraid. I should have introduced context here for those who rather adopt opinions from other instead of doing some reading and thinking for themselves. The passage before the quote is this:
"If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then theat one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscoverd something ancient was beside the point." - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
This is a direct reference to the ritual that the Sith used to shift the balance of the Force which Plagueis links to his power directly.
1. It's not stated that the two were able to do this because of the balance shift, and not because they were studying midichlorians alongside these efforts.2. Midichlorian manipulation was explicitly relevant to the question of Force balance because it is mentioned that the Force itself would resist their attempts to manipulate said midichlorians - that doesn't mean the Force is resisting Sidious when he lifts a heavy object.
3. How is this relevant to combat?
It is implied that Plagueis could just do that due to f the balance shift because the "on the same day", which I highlighted, was the day at which they managed to shift the balance. Furthermore: They assumed that the Force would resist the attempts to manipulate the balance and the midichlorians, but that never happened. And this is relevant to the fact that all their abilities were boosted, not singular abilities.
It's never stated that that's because of the shift, lol.
The entire chapter of the novel (chapter 24) is dealing with nothing but the shift. This sentence is written before the paragraph I quoted above.
If it increased his count, then it made him permanently stronger.
Who knows? If that was the result of a balance shift, what would happen when the balance was restored again?
To counter the non-facetious response you gave later, where is the evidence that Palpatine was draining off of Byss after his rebirth? And you do realize that he was doing so long before even RotJ, right? So we're to believe he grew so much more powerful personally as to offset this reset? Why weren't dark siders who survived Palpatine all complaining about growing weaker following his death? Why do we never hear about this once, and why is there no apparent correlation?
There are much explanations for Sidious growing more powerful: Almost a decade of experimenting, further draining of the population, building power reserves, conducting experiments that would have made him stronger, uncovering new knowledge. Who knows? Who cares?
And what "Dark Siders who survived Palpatine" are you even talking about? His Hands, who all made allusions to the fact that they had been dependant on his power to a certain extend? Because I don't see many other Dark Siders that were "dark siders" before Sidious death and survived him or that would bring up an issue like that 20 or 30 or 40 years after the Emperor's death when we first encounter them in the source-material.
In either case, even if you were right, there's no way to quantify this boost, and so it's just sophistic to try to lowball Vader's feats in this manner when he is only ever depicted in this context.
You mean much like there is no way to quantify the boosts of a nexus or some amulets, so it's just sophistic to try and lowball Kun's feats in this manner? 😉
Originally posted by NaiYou mean much like there is no way to quantify the boosts of a nexus or some amulets, so it's just sophistic to try and lowball Kun's feats in this manner? 😉
Beautiful. Just as that age old German philosopher said - Argument Stratagem 21 :
When your opponent uses a merely superficial or sophistical argument and you see through it,it is better to meet him with a counter-argument which is just as superficial and sophistical, and so dispose of him - even if if the argument is objectively true.
Can't see Ellimist recovering from that one. But thanks, once again for demonstrating why there is no one your level posting on kmc today.
The big picture: Given the mental gymnastics you need to explain why this decrease and then restoration of combat ability between the balance shift and Sidious's death is never once materialized in any source material, commented on clearly by anyone, or experienced by any person who survives this, it's a far more reasonable interpretation to say that this shift pertained to specific things like midichlorian manipulation (which explicitly battles the Force) or long term foresight, rather than just assuming it affects your short-term abilities when you're just assuming this because you think your quotes talk about "general" Force power. Occam's razor, and anything.
Originally posted by Nai
Urm. Where do you get the idea from, that is was limited to certain abilities? Pointing to AotC: "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished." - Mace Windu. I don't see any mentioning of certain abilities. This is a general statement that also applies to combat related uses of the Force - obviously. And then, the opposite is true for the Sith.
As I'm sure you know, that was in the context of their not sensing the existence of the clone army. It's never once suggested that, say, Obi Wan was befuddled by why he can't jump as high as he could in TPM, or that TPM Windu would've defeated AotC Windu. Never once in all of the published material do we get any indication that this has happened, and it becomes ridiculous to try to do mental gymnastics to say that this was going on behind the scenes.
Otherwise, Maul in TCW should have utterly destroyed Obi Wan in all of their encounters.
Since the emotional instability would affect the Force user and not necessarily his ability to use the Force - just his will to do so: Yes.
Wow, that's clearly more profound than a planet steeped in the dark side from thousands of dark siders having lived and died there, and amulets designed to amplify and focus one's powers into energy blasts, lol.
But since you made the point: What is Vader going to do against those amulets that can release gigantic energy blasts? Oh. Wait. You have removed that equipment from Kun for whatever reason. Maybe, because he would just blast Vader into oblivion?
Oh, so disallowing excessive external help is unfair? OK, why don't we just give Vader the Executor and the rest of the death squadron? 🙄
I'm afraid. I should have introduced context here for those who rather adopt opinions from other instead of doing some reading and thinking for themselves. The passage before the quote is this:"If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then theat one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscoverd something ancient was beside the point." - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
This is a direct reference to the ritual that the Sith used to shift the balance of the Force which Plagueis links to his power directly.
If the novel actually says this, you're doing a really poor job of picking out the relevant quotes. That doesn't imply that the ritual actually made them more powerful. It says that Plagueis was really powerful, and that he had discovered an ancient ability. That could just mean he succeeded in that ability because he was really powerful (as a side note, it's interesting that none of the ancients succeeded in doing this).
And even if it did, again, you just provided us with a quote that suggests it literally increased his midichlorian count, which would be a permanent change. How else would this work? When someone turns to the dark side following this shift, do they magically gain midichlorians in their cells? What happens if they just use it temporarily? What if they turn dark and then turn back to the light? What happens then?
It is implied that Plagueis could just do that due to f the balance shift because the "on the same day", which I highlighted, was the day at which they managed to shift the balance. Furthermore: They assumed that the Force would resist the attempts to manipulate the balance and the midichlorians, but that never happened. And this is relevant to the fact that all their abilities were boosted, not singular abilities.
The Force did, actually. It didn't directly resist their attempts to tip the balance, but it was resisting their attempts to manipulate midichlorians, and when they tried to create life, it retreated and they couldn't do it.
The entire chapter of the novel (chapter 24) is dealing with nothing but the shift. This sentence is written before the paragraph I quoted above.
You're assuming causation going one way, that is, the balance shift literally making Plagueis and Sidious more powerful.
Who knows? If that was the result of a balance shift, what would happen when the balance was restored again?
What, so the number of midichlorians in their cells would magically decrease?
There are much explanations for Sidious growing more powerful: Almost a decade of experimenting, further draining of the population, building power reserves, conducting experiments that would have made him stronger, uncovering new knowledge. Who knows? Who cares?And what "Dark Siders who survived Palpatine" are you even talking about? His Hands, who all made allusions to the fact that they had been dependant on his power to a certain extend? Because I don't see many other Dark Siders that were "dark siders" before Sidious death and survived him or that would bring up an issue like that 20 or 30 or 40 years after the Emperor's death when we first encounter them in the source-material.
Jerec, Lumiya, etc. None of them commented on growing weaker because of this balance shift. The lost tribe of the sith didn't either. There's no indication of Luke being far more powerful in the material immediately after RotJ. Sidious himself never said that he had to make up for lost ground, nor did anything that you'd expect to happen from this actually happen.
You mean much like there is no way to quantify the boosts of a nexus or some amulets, so it's just sophistic to try and lowball Kun's feats in this manner? 😉
Sure you can quantify them. You can compare their feats with and without, use benchmarks like Vjun Dooku vs. Yoda, etc.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Beautiful. Just as that age old German philosopher said - Argument Stratagem 21 :When your opponent uses a merely superficial or sophistical argument and you see through it,it is better to meet him with a counter-argument which is just as superficial and sophistical, and so dispose of him - even if if the argument is objectively true.
Can't see Ellimist recovering from that one. But thanks, once again for demonstrating why there is no one your level posting on kmc today.
Originally posted by NaiNone of this really supports your point. mmm
Did you, by chance, read a novel called "Darth Plagueis"?Because Sidious was just elevated to a position where he was Yoda's equal, obviously. And Obi-Wan was "competing" in sabers with an emotionally destabilized Anakin Skywalker.
You may, once more, go and read "Darth Plagueis".
There was a boost in the Dark Sider's power in general:
"All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
There are power suddenly gained, directly attributed to the shift:
"[b]On the same day
they had allowed Venamis to die. Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had ressurected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence[...]But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.In fact, the newfound power led Plaguies to the following idea:
"Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
Before that happened, he was speculating about the power of the Ancient Sith:
"But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 5.
So, urm: The shift did affect the entirety of the skills as force user, not just some selected abilities. It even increased the midi-chlorian count of Plagueis.
Because, obviously, the entirety of "Dark Empire" was conceived before the Chosen One / Force Balance stuff was. 🙄 [/B]
But hey I'm bored, so I'll expand.
Originally posted by NaiThis is true, but doesn't demand that practitioners of the dark side also grew stronger.
There was a boost in the Dark Sider's power in general:"All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
There are power suddenly gained, directly attributed to the shift:Midi-cholorians appeared more easily manipulated as a result of that shift, but that is one power out of many."[b]On the same day
they had allowed Venamis to die. Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had ressurected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence[...]But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.[/b]
In fact, the newfound power led Plaguies to the following idea:This revelation is not only made in entirely different contexts, but before the shift was conducted at all. But yeah, Plagueis is pretty much better than any Sith who came before him. 👆"Plagueis understood, too, that there were [b]no powers beyond his reach
; none he couldn't master through an effort of will." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.[/b]
Before that happened, he was speculating about the power of the Ancient Sith:Prominent =/= potent, he's referring to how practice of the dark side was more widespread, not that the dark side was stronger back then (it wasn't, and if it was, would make this argument backfire spectacularly)."But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?" - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 5.
So, urm: The shift did affect the entirety of the skills as force user, not just some selected abilities. It even increased the midi-chlorian count of Plagueis.Perhaps, but certainly not according to these sources.