Originally posted by krisblazeIn a police murder, the victim's past does not matter. Only their actions during the shooting itself. Was the victim posing a threat to the police officer, like that one body cam killing that was caught on tape where the police followed procedure and were within their rights to execute him? Then sure, the criminal bore some responsibility.
And that criminals have to accept some responsibility.Police murders don't take place in a contextual vacuum.
And neither does crime obviously, which the other side of the debate often has a hard time acknowledging 😛
But Alton Sterling being a criminal doesn't imply he has to accept any responsibility for his shooting, for example, since apparently he was executed while posing no threat to the police. Whether or not he was a piece of shit who perpetuated stereotypes about his race does not matter when discussing his execution.
Now, in a more meta sense we can say that police need to stop being profiling phaggots and a statistically significant portion of the black community needs to stop being criminals (though solving those issues is harder than just informing people that they're doing wrong), but that isn't actually what Surtur is/was saying (though I would not be surprised if he would say it was). Surtur is using the criminal records of the victims to shift blame onto them.
I now see my original mistake. I assumed that people could understand as well as they typed. I now see the level I must drop to in order for boy genius to understand. I would have assumed he and his tag team partner would get together and at least attempt to wrap their pea brains around my thoughts.
The racism is sickening.
Originally posted by Lestov16Wait, who did this?
As stated, the same people saying Philando Castle deserved to die in front of his family for reaching for his wallet are the same people who believe Oregon terrorist Robert Finicum did not deserve to die even though he was outright threatening police officers with a gun.The racism is sickening.
Originally posted by NemeBro
In a police murder, the victim's past does not matter. Only their actions during the shooting itself. Was the victim posing a threat to the police officer, like that one body cam killing that was caught on tape where the police followed procedure and were within their rights to execute him? Then sure, the criminal bore some responsibility.But Alton Sterling being a criminal doesn't imply he has to accept any responsibility for his shooting, for example, since apparently he was executed while posing no threat to the police. Whether or not he was a piece of shit who perpetuated stereotypes about his race does not matter when discussing his execution.
The police officer still has to do a risk assessment.
What do you think informs his decision?
It doesn't justify it, but it explains it.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Now, in a more meta sense we can say that police need to stop being profiling phaggots and a statistically significant portion of the black community needs to stop being criminals (though solving those issues is harder than just informing people that they're doing wrong), but that isn't actually what Surtur is/was saying (though I would not be surprised if he would say it was). Surtur is using the criminal records of the victims to shift blame onto them.
That was his point though. I don't see why you won't accept that.
When you play stupid games you tend to end up with stupid prizes. But no, there can never be any accountability. It's not the life of crime that lead to this..it's just racist cops.
You don't need to think he deserved to be shot in order to be capable of acknowledging what ultimately lead this man to this conclusion. Live by the gun and you one day die by it. Whether at the hands of a cop or a rival thug. Most likely another black person actually, but we don't talk about those things because it's another inconvenient truth.
I'm just waiting for a story of some crazy fed up black guy sniping some black gang bangers for what *they* do to the community.
Originally posted by SurturFrom what I can gather what ultimately led to this conclusion was a cop pulling the trigger when he didn't have to.
When you play stupid games you tend to end up with stupid prizes. But no, there can never be any accountability. It's not the life of crime that lead to this..it's just racist cops.You don't need to think he deserved to be shot in order to be capable of acknowledging what ultimately lead this man to this conclusion. Live by the gun and you one day die by it. Whether at the hands of a cop or a rival thug. Most likely another black person actually, but we don't talk about those things because it's another inconvenient truth.
I'm just waiting for a story of some crazy fed up black guy sniping some black gang bangers for what *they* do to the community.
Also, you're assuming an awful lot about Sterling based on his rap sheet, which to my knowledge didn't include any murder. Owning a gun and having violent criminal offenses do not imply he "lived by the gun".
Also, who is we? Everyone here (even Lestov!) acknowledges how pervasive violent crime is in the black community.
Originally posted by krisblaze
The police officer still has to do a risk assessment.What do you think informs his decision?
It doesn't justify it, but it explains it.
I'm sure he viewed himself as being heavily at risk from a guy he had on the ground on his stomach with his hands held behind his back.
Also, who cares? Most actions done by men have a reason explaining why they were done. It means nothing if the explanation fails to justify the action, at least in this context.
That was his point though. I don't see why you won't accept that.Because it's not his point. He is saying, outright, that the reason homeboy was killed is because of his criminal background.
When the ultimate reason for his death seems to be poor judgment, be it from incompetence or racism or whatever, from a police officer.
Don't try to frame Surtur's thoughts as being that both sides need to change for things to get better. They're not.
But see I'm not framing it in the way you are suggesting. I don't think the cop who killed him had any information on his criminal background. But it was criminal behavior that lead to this. The cop was called because the guy was waving a gun in someone's face. That didn't happen years ago, it happened the same day the guy died.
I've acknowledge more than once cops need to change too. You just choose to ignore it or pretend you know better at what I mean than I do. All the while trying to insult others for their lack of comprehension you seem consistent in your inability to do it.
We are trying to unite. But our complaints of police corruption go unheard, causing complaints of gang violence to go unheard in response. Blacks will start protesting gangs when police start protesting their corrupt officers. Until police start doing this, it will just prove to blacks that there is no unity desired by cops, and thus the unrest will continue.
How is the "Snitches get Stitches" mentality of gangs any different than "Blue Wall of Silence" of police departments?
Why would blacks stop selling drugs and robbing for profit when the cops unjustly round up blacks for
quotas and court fees for profit?
Why would people trust cops when they act as a gang who can come up with an excuse to arrest and detain anyone who exposes them and use what is essentially military force to shut down any protest against them?
Why would gang violence stop when cops arrest blacks for minor crimes and send them to privatized prisons to be indoctrinated into street gangs, causing them to grow?
Why would ghettos patrol themselves to punish murderous criminals when cops let their corrupt cohorts go free?
As shown with the cops turning their backs on DeBlasio, they hate anybody telling them to correct themselves, yet they expect black communities to do the same. It is hypocrisy. Why would people be compelled to obey the law when the people who enforce the law aren't compelled to obey the law?
As stated before, what is any different than the Blue Wall Of Silence and Hillary's FBI Pardon? It's all authoritarianism.
Originally posted by Lestov16
We are trying to unite. But our complaints of police corruption go unheard, causing complaints of gang violence to go unheard in response. Blacks will start protesting gangs when police start protesting their corrupt officers. Until police start doing this, it will just prove to blacks that there is no unity desired by cops, and thus the unrest will continue.
But again nobody says don't talk about police corruption. Nobody has said, for example, that BLM shouldn't talk about it. What is said is it shouldn't be the ONLY thing they care about. You just dropped a strange excuse since you say until the police start protesting corrupt cops blacks won't protest the gangs.
First of all we both know even if the cops did that..they still wouldn't protest the gangs lol. Don't kid yourself on that. Also the group is called Black Lives Matters so how utterly horrific was what you just said in regards to what these people claim to care about? That people who claim to be for black lives mattering won't speak up against the largest segment of the population that kills blacks.
Awesome who gives a f*ck about all the blacks that die via gang violence, focus on the small few that die at the hands of cops. But then just say that and admit this isn't about black lives mattering. If people at least said this..at least they would be appear more genuine. It's not about black lives if you will turn your backs on a huge problem out of sheer stubbornness.
How is the "Snitches get Stitches" mentality of gangs any different than "Blue Wall of Silence" of police departments?
It's not different.
Why would blacks stop selling drugs and robbing for profit when the cops unjustly round up blacks for
quotas and court fees for profit?
Dude what you just said is the exact wrong mentality. "Some blacks get wrongly rounded up so lets keep on doing our crime". Do you not realize the rampant crime is what lead to that? Cause and effect man. Why perpetuate the cycle? Who has more to lose?
Why would people trust cops when they act as a gang who can come up with an excuse to arrest and detain anyone who exposes them and use what is essentially military force to shut down any protest against them?
So it's okay to generalize cops, but racist to generalize blacks. This is the kind of mentality I'm talking about. It is self defeating. You're your own worst enemy.
Why would gang violence stop when cops arrest blacks for minor crimes and send them to privatized prisons to be indoctrinated into street gangs, causing them to grow?
"Cops arrest blacks for minor crimes so let's keep on shooting little kids in the face" is a mentality that I admit would make sense coming from gang bangers. Do you think it makes sense in any kind of rational way though?
Why would ghettos patrol themselves to punish murderous criminals when cops let their corrupt cohorts go free?
Why don't we just pull the cops out of the ghetto's then and see what happens? Would they get worse or better in your opinion? I'm serious about that too. Pull them out. Pull all cops out or pull all cops that are not black out. I want you to be able to see how much worse it can actually get.
As shown with the cops turning their backs on DeBlasio, they hate anybody telling them to correct themselves, yet they expect black communities to do the same. It is hypocrisy. Why would people be compelled to obey the law when the people who enforce the law aren't compelled to obey the law?
Dude literally every gripe you have against cops can be said about blacks too lol. I mean do you not realize this or do you realize it and just not care?
As stated before, what is any different than the Blue Wall Of Silence and Hillary's FBI Pardon? It's all authoritarianism.
Keeping silent is keeping silent, no matter which side you are on.
But your mentality showed me you'd rather ignore larger problems in order to make some kind of point. Which is fine, but countless young blacks are dying while you do this, you get that right?
You say they should care about things other than police corruption when the problem of police corruption isn't close to being solved. The point I made is that the police are no different from a street gang, so there's no reason to respect them.
LOL you're saying it is honorable to be silent about corruption? And then you wonder why Hillary got off Scot free...
lol larger problems? The entire justice system is corrupt and oppressed people and you think gangbangers are the larger problem? And countless black youths die from being a product of this system, which I thoroughly explained.
Are you seriously that dense not to get how if one goes to prison for a minor crime, they will be forced to be indoctrinated into a gang to survive, and will take that gang mentality with them to spread on the street? You seriously don't see how the incarceration system plays into this? And yet you're talking about the "dying black youths" even though you support the system that creates their gang culture.
Who said being silent about corruption is honorable? I said being silent is being silent no matter which side.
Also do you know what this country would be like if we never focused on more than one thing until that one thing was completely solved? That is like saying put off doing research on curing cancer until we cure aids. Doing such a thing would only make sense if we literally only had one scientist in the country working on cures and thus needed to decide which ones were the most important. But we have multiple scientists so we research multiple diseases and how to cure them..you get where I'm going with this?