Originally posted by ares834What the hell are you talking about ? Did you incorrectly break her post down. Is this like that time you thought I was referring to Vader when it was Sidious.
WTF? So Anakin's "knowledge of the force" was also superior?At this point, I'm almost convinced you're trolling.
I try to make it a habit to ignore all of your posts.
Originally posted by AncientPower
No Vader's knowledge was much greater, obviously. Anakin's mindset as the Chosen One is a far greater trait than any Force mastery. Dooku's knowledge and mastery was superior as well, but it meant nothing.
My bad, I misread your post. And, yes, Zonakin would defeat Vader. However, that does not seem to be his normal state of mind. We've never seen him operate at those levels before (bar perhaps Mortis) and don't see him afterwards. Sure, it may be possible that he was operating at that level during the sack of the temple, but (to my knowledge) we have no proof of this.
Originally posted by AncientPower
No Vader's knowledge was much greater, obviously. Anakin's mindset as the Chosen One is a far greater trait than any Force mastery. Dooku's knowledge and mastery was superior as well, but it meant nothing.
It's ridiculous that I've had to post these quotes more than once. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about them. Vader>Anakin confirmed, any excuse you have is invalid.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker seemed to be able to enter the state of mind again when he was landing the Invisible Hand.Also, so Ares, do you think Vader could replicate Skywalker's fight against Dooku, or do you think the fight isn't a reflection of Anakin's skills?
I never got that impression from the film, it seems just to be his natural aptitude for flying there. Is there a reason to believe otherwise?
I certainly think Vader would defeat Dooku though nowhere near as easily as the novelization presents Anakin doing it at the end. And, no, I don't think it's representative of how Anakin typically fights.
Here:
This is Anakin Skywalker's masterpiece:Many people say he is the best star pilot in the galaxy, but that's merely talk, born of the constant HoloNet references to his unmatched string of kills in starfighter combat. Blowing up vulture droids and tri-fighters is simply a matter of superior reflexes and trust in the Force; he has spent so many hours in the cockpit that he wears a Jedi starfighter like clothes. It's his own body, with thrusters for legs and cannons for fists.
What he is doing right now transcends mere flying the way Jedi combat transcends a schoolyard scuffle.
He sits in a blood-spattered, blaster-chopped chair behind a console he's never seen before, a console with controls designed for alien fingers. The ship he's in is not only bucking like a maddened dewback through brutal coils of clear-air turbulence, it's on fire and breaking up like a comet ripping apart as it crashes into a gas giant. He has only seconds to learn how to maneuver an alien craft that not only has no aft control cells, but has no aft at all.
This is, put simply, impossible. It can't be done.
He's going to do it anyway.
Because he is Anakin Skywalker, and he doesn't believe in impossible.
He extends his hands and for one long, long moment he merely strokes controls, feeling their shape under his fingers, listening to the shivers his soft touch brings to each remaining control surface of the disintegrating ship, allowing their resonances to join inside his head until they resolve into harmony like a Ferroan joy-harp virtuoso checking the tuning of his instrument.
And at the same time, he draws power from the Force. He gathers perception, and luck, and sucks into himself the instinctive, preconscious what-will-happen-in-the-next-ten-seconds intuition that has always been the core of his talent. And then he begins.
On the downbeat, atmospheric drag fins deploy; as he tweaks their angles and cycles them in and out to slow the ship's descent without burning them off altogether, their contrabass roar takes on a punctuated rhythm like a heart that skips an occasional beat. The forward attitude thrusters, damaged in the ship-to-ship battle, now fire in random directions, but he can feel where they're raking him and he strokes them in sequence, making their song the theme of his impromptu concerto.
And the true inspiration, the sparkling grace note of genius that brings his masterpiece to life, is the soprano counterpoint: a syncopated sequence of exterior hatches in the outer hull sliding open and closed and open again, subtly altering the aerodynamics of the ship to give it just exactly the amount of sideslip or lift or yaw to bring the huge half cruiser into the approach cone of a pinpoint target an eighth of the planet away.
It is the Force that makes this possible, and more than the Force. Anakin has no interest in serene acceptance of what the Force will bring. Not here. Not now. Not with the lives of Palpatine and Obi-Wan at stake. It's just the opposite: he seizes upon the Force with a stark refusal to fail.
He will land this ship.
He will save his friends.
Between his will and the will of the Force, there is no contest.
And then later:
"Mace shook his head. Skywalker again. The chosen one. Who else could have brought in this hulk? Who else could have even come close?
---
So, you don't think Anakin Skywalker could do the following on neutral grounds?:
Skywalker was all over him.The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
...
Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood. He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long. Skywalker was a natural.
There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it. This boy had the gift of fury.
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.
Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.
I think he definitely can - and such a force is simply beyond Vader (or Revan, for that matter). I assume that's why our views of this fight is so radically different.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Rebel, those were from Vader's perspective. Out of everyone, I consider Vader in particular to be the least reliable source on the subject.We know for a fact that the injuries he suffered did not strengthen his connection to the Force, but rather weakened it, as Lucas infamously pointed out.
Not according to that statement, which is canon. It's the pain that ultimately strengthens his connection:
"Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength."
Why? We know he regards the Jedi, and his former self in particular, as weak. It's clear his teachings under Palpatine has him convinced that the light side is vastly inferior to that of the dark. In comparison, Palpatine remarks to Starkiller that Darth Vader is but a shadow of his former self, and this was around the same time as ANH, in which I recall another quote that states the same concerning Kenobi and Vader there as well.
It's not canon. It's from Vader's perspective. It doesn't carry the same weight as an unbiased narrator would. The injuries made Vader lose a lot of his midichlorians. Rage can't make up for that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why? We know he regards the Jedi, and his former self in particular, as weak. It's clear his teachings under Palpatine has him convinced that the light side is vastly inferior to that of the dark. In comparison, Palpatine remarks to Starkiller that Darth Vader is but a shadow of his former self, and this was around the same time as ANH, in which I recall another quote that states the same concerning Kenobi and Vader there as well.It's not canon. It's from Vader's perspective. It doesn't carry the same weight as an unbiased narrator would. The injuries made Vader lose a lot of his midichlorians. Rage can't make up for that.
The loss of midichlorians only affected his potential, which Anakin hadn't reached yet.
Originally posted by Rebel95
They don't view jedi as weak regarding their power, lol. They view them as weak regarding their philosophy, not using their emotions, not pursuing power, etc. Totally different.
"Even a fraction of the dark side is more power than your Jedi arrogance can conceive; living in the light, you have never seen the depth of the darkness."
To quote Palpatine, in reference to his power in comparison to Yoda. ^
The loss of midichlorians only affected his potential, which Anakin hadn't reached yet.
Basically, I think you're vastly underestimating the importance of raw power.
Originally posted by ares834
I think he can certainly fight in that state of mind and fight in a similar manner against Vader. However, I can't see an Anakin fighting at that level easily overcoming Vader if at all. It is, to borrow Dooku's terminology here, Anakin going "supercritical" that I question.
I see no reason to believe Vader can really even best Dooku in a duel, let alone do so with the same ease Anakin had.
What feat really stands out for Vader's superiority? Besting ANH Kenobi? Starkiller? 😬