Yoda vs RotS Vader

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? No he doesn't, lmfao. At least nothing of note.

And once Kenobi was KO'ed, he definitely didn't have to.

So you're saying that Dooku doesn't have to be aware of whether Obi Wan is about to enter the fight or not? Sorry, going to have disagree there.

That's fine but Anakin was definitely not pressing his advantage as hard once it was a 1v1 even before Dooku employed Dun Moch on him. Here's the passage.

"Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood. He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long. Skywalker was a natural. There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it. This boy had the gift of fury. And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical. Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward."

Anakin is capable of driving Dooku back in a normal state where Dooku has no distractions and Anakin a form advantage but not the wholesale domination he demonstrated earlier when Dooku had to expend a part of his focus on watching out for Kenobi.

Good thing Knightfall Vader learns to use this constantly and destroys his emotional Achilles heel before he loses it on Mustafar. But you've obviously read the book, haven't you Neph. 😂

@Syn, you're ignoring the part after Palpatine helps him use his emotions instead of being clouded by them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I love how you neglected the next line:

"Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread"

Go watch My Little Pony or something. The big boys are talking. 👆

I said that he wasn't going supernova but he was clearly using his fury. Thats the whole point of the monologue.

"He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long."

Dooku's talking about why Anakin is going so hard and concludes that its because of his fury. Its something Anakin is already doing.

@Syndicate:

Using the Force to keep tabs on Kenobi wouldn't take a billionth of Dooku's overall power, lmfao.

Uh, no, he blatantly was.

There was no distinction.

---

You're literally trying to argue Dooku utilizing Force sense makes the difference between being a close opponent to Skywalker and being utterly outclassed.

Come on, dude. There's better arguments for the fight than that. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said that he wasn't going supernova but he was clearly using his fury. Thats the whole point of the monologue.

"He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long."

Dooku's talking about why Anakin is going so hard and concludes that its because of his fury. Its something Anakin is already doing.

Try again. 🙂

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I love how you neglected the next line:

"Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread"

Go watch My Little Pony or something. The big boys are talking. 👆

I love, how you people are reading the wrong chapter:

"This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
[...]
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
[...]
But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.
[...]
But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame."
-RotS Novelization, Chapter 4: Jedi Trap.

'nuff said.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Good thing Knightfall Vader learns to use this constantly and destroys his rmotional Achilles heel before he loses it on Mustafar. But you've obviously read the book, haven't you Neph. 😂

Yeah definitely, thats why he's an emotional mess the whole movie, spends the whole thing wrecked with fear over Padme, freaks out after the Palpatine reveal, gets his ass manipulated like a champ constantly, collapses after cutting off Windu's arm near tears, murders children and sobs like a baby on Mustafar.

Solid as a ****in' rock right there. 👆

Originally posted by Nai
I love, how you people are reading the wrong chapter:

"This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and [b]discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
[...]
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
[...]
But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.
[...]
But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame."
-RotS Novelization, Chapter 4: Jedi Trap.

'nuff said. [/B]

Uh, we are referring to Anakin in the previous chapter - not Zonakin.

Previous chapter Anakin was still utterly tearing Dooku apart. 👆

Get with the program.

Get with the program, Nai. 👆

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, the text makes note the fury is being held back. It's leaking through his Jedi barriers but not his uncontrolled dread.

Try again. 🙂

Hence why I said it wasn't everything since some of it was still being held back but it was clearly still a significant factor. facepalm2

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Syndicate:

Using the Force to keep tabs on Kenobi wouldn't take a billionth of Dooku's overall power, lmfao.

Uh, no, he blatantly was.

There was no distinction.

---

You're literally trying to argue Dooku utilizing Force sense makes the difference between being a close opponent to Skywalker and being utterly outclassed.

Come on, dude. There's better arguments for the fight than that. 😬

Given Anakin directing focus torwards inhibiting his rage altered his performance against Dooku to a large degree I'd imagine Dooku having to keep a part of his focus on Kenobi's location during the fight would affect him similarly. The text backs up my assertion by showing Dooku falling back but not in a desperate retreat against Skywalker.

Uh, no, he blatantly wasn't. Dooku even has time to come up with a strategy in an attempt to hinder Anakin. Given he was about to slip into unconsciousness whilst having leverage over Anakin by retreating up the stairs prior to their 1v1 I imagine it affected his performance greatly.

Given Anakin's performances dropped enormously after his focus was diverted I find it to be logical.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah definitely, thats why he's an emotional mess the whole movie, spends the whole thing wrecked with fear over Padme, freaks out after the Palpatine reveal, gets his ass manipulated like a champ constantly, collapses after cutting off Windu's arm near tears, murders children and sobs like a baby on Mustafar.

Solid as a ****in' rock right there. 👆

Anakin made his right hand—his black-gloved hand of durasteel and electrodrivers—into a fist.
“It’s just—it’s not . . . easy, that’s all. I have—I’ve been a Jedi for so long—”
Sidious offered an appalling smile. “There is a place within you, my boy, a place as briskly clean as ice on a mountaintop, cool and remote. Find that high place, and look down within yourself; breathe that clean, icy air as you regard your guilt and shame. Do not deny them; observe them. Take your horror in your hands and look at it. Examine it as a phenomenon. Smell it. Taste it. Come to know it as only you can, for it is yours, and it is precious.”
As the shadow beside him spoke, its words became true. From a remote, frozen distance that was at the same time more extravagantly, hotly intimate than he could have ever dreamed, Anakin handled his emotions. He dissected them. He reassembled them and pulled them apart again. He still felt them—if anything, they burned hotter than before—but they no longer had the power to cloud his mind.
“You have found it, my boy: I can feel you there. That cold distance—that mountaintop within yourself—that is the first key to the power of the Sith.”
Anakin opened his eyes and turned his gaze fully upon the grotesque features of Darth Sidious.
He didn’t even blink.
As he looked upon that mask of corruption, the revulsion he felt was real, and it was powerful, and it was—
Interesting.
Anakin lifted his hand of durasteel and electrodrivers and cupped it, staring into its palm as though he held there the fear that had haunted his dreams for his whole life, and it was no larger than the piece of shuura he’d once stolen from Padmé’s plate.
On the mountain peak within himself, he weighed Padmé’s life against the Jedi Order. It was no contest.
He said, “Yes.”
“Yes to what, my boy?”
“Yes, I want your knowledge.”
“Good. Good!”
“I want your power. I want the power to stop death.”
“That power only my Master truly achieved, but together we will find it. The Force is strong with you, my boy. You can do anything.”
“The Jedi betrayed you,” Anakin said. “The Jedi betrayed both of us.”
“As you say. Are you ready?”
“I am,” he said, and meant it. “I give myself to you. I pledge myself to the ways of the Sith. Take me as your apprentice. Teach me. Lead me. Be my Master.”
Sidious raised the hood of his robe and draped it to shadow the ruin of his face. Kneel before me, Anakin Skywalker.”
Anakin dropped to one knee. He lowered his head.
“It is your will to join your destiny forever with the Order of the Sith Lords?”
There was no hesitation. “Yes.”
Darth Sidious laid a pale hand on Anakin’s brow. “Then it is done. You are now one with the Order of the Dark Lords of the Sith. From this day forward, the truth of you, my apprentice, now and forevermore, will be Darth . . .”
A pause; a questioning in the Force—
An answer, dark as the gap between galaxies—
He heard Sidious say it: his new name.
Vader. A pair of syllables that meant him.
Vader, he said to himself. Vader.
“Thank you, my Master.”
“Every single Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, have been revealed as enemies of the Republic now. You understand that, don’t you?”
“Yes, my Master.”
“The Jedi are relentless. If they are not destroyed to the last being, there will be civil war without end. To sterilize the Jedi Temple will be your first task. Do what must be done, Lord Vader.”
“I always have, my Master.”
“Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Leave no living creature behind. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padmé.”
“What of the other Jedi?”
“Leave them to me. After you have finished at the Temple, your second task will be the Separatist leadership, in their ‘secret bunker’ on Mustafar. When you have killed them all, the Sith will rule the galaxy once more, and we shall have peace. Forever.
“Rise, Darth Vader.”
The Sith Lord who once had been a Jedi hero called Anakin Skywalker stood, drawing himself up to his full height, but he looked not outward upon his new Master, nor upon the planet-city beyond, nor out into the galaxy that they would soon rule. He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life.
I am Darth Vader, he said within himself. The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, crushed away its voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith Lord laid his other hand upon it and broke its power with a single effortless twist.
I am Darth Vader, he repeated as he ground the dragon’s corpse to dust beneath his mental heel, as he watched the dragon’s dust and ashes scatter before the blast from his furnace heart, and you—
You are nothing at all.
He had become, finally, what they all called him.
The Hero With No Fear.

Reading is fun. :up;

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, we are referring to Anakin in the previous chapter - not Zonakin.

Get with the program.

Anakin from the previous chapter is entirely irrelevant, as it is not post Zonakin-Anakin, who has gone to "zeh Zone" once and would probably be capable to go there once more (as he, probably, does in his "Knightfall"-incarnation). Which is still irrelevant completely, as Yoda would still destroy him. 😉

Originally posted by Nai
Anakin from the previous chapter is entirely irrelevant, as it is not post Zonakin-Anakin, who has gone to "zeh Zone" once and would probably be capable to go there once more (as he, probably, does in his "Knightfall"-incarnation). Which is still irrelevant completely, as Yoda would still destroy him. 😉

I can't help but wonder why ABC logic is unacceptable in most cases but OK for Anakin. mmm

Anakin >> Dooku < Yoda might make sense on paper but when you consider the Count's stylistic disadvantage, the fact he was fatigued and caught off-guard by Anakin's sudden burst of rage and the fact that a duel can be one or lost by a split-second misstep it becomes much less compelling.

Even less so when Dark Disciple shits all over it...

"Yes, use your anger! Surely Ventress told you that it is the only way you can defeat me!"

Ventress. A burst of fear filled Vos's chest. He grabbed it and bent it to his will. His throat was raw from primal cries as he went after Dooku with everything he had.

And this time, Dooku went down.

He scuttled backward, still parrying blows from the ground, but the sight gladdened Vos's heart. All he needed to do now was to get past the old man's blade.

A quick feint to the chest, a twist of his wrist, and Dooku's lightsaber went flying.

The green blade was a centimeter away from Dooku's throat, and the count froze, staring up at his adversary.

Dooku's own lightsaber was activated now, and the two men regarded each other. Dooku sighed. "Must we do this yet again? This time I shall make certain to swat this pesky fly!"

The count went from standing perfectly still to a blur, but Vos was faster. He leapt up and over Dooku, just in time to prevent the red blade from severing his legs. Dooku whirled as Vos's blade slashed down and caught it on his own. Vos kicked out in a long swipe, angling his body to force his enemy's blade down. Dooku let himself fall, seizing Vos in the Force and hurling him across the room. The count extended his arm, and Force lightning leapt from his hand.

But Vos wasn't there. He stretched out his own hand and Dooku's lightsaber flew into his open palm. Vos smiled, a cruel, satisfied smile. Dooku appeared unrattled, blasting another round of Force lightning. While Vos crossed both green and red lightsabers in front of him in a protective X, Dooku made a pulling motion with his other hand, and Vos was flipped backward. The red lightsaber returned to its owner, and the fight continued.

Both Jedi watching were prepared to act if need be. Indeed, Anakin was more than eager to do so. But, truth be told, Vos seemed to be holding his own against Dooku. He leapt, sprang, ducked, and tumbled. Dooku might have been a master of technique, but Vos's characteristic unpredictability-quite possibly even to himself-often gave him the edge.

As it did now. Vos all but danced around Dooku, forcing the older man to whirl, strike, and block from every side. And then-there it was. Dooku overextended-only a trifle-and the next thing Kenobi knew the count's lightsaber was across the room and the count himself was on his back.

Vos smiled down at the defeated Sith. The tip of his lightsaber was a centimeter away from Dooku's throat.

EDIT: And of course Nai is right, no matter how powerful combatively Anakin may be, Yoda would still destroy him in the Force.

Originally posted by Nai
Anakin from the previous chapter is entirely irrelevant, as it is not post Zonakin-Anakin, who has gone to "zeh Zone" once and would probably be capable to go there once more (as he, probably, does in his "Knightfall"-incarnation). Which is still irrelevant completely, as Yoda would still destroy him. 😉

Lol, he goes there 'once more' landing the Invisible Hand, which should've been literally impossible, something Windu observes. Knowing only Anakin could've done so. Those events have Mace Windu believing that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi. Anakin goes there 'once more' throughout the entire temple raid and throughout slaughtering on Mustafar. He acknowledges his growth in power from the dark side. Then he experiences dread again, a sense of what was to come, that was his downfall. Nick Gillard extrapolates on that crucial mindset 'once more' himself.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Given Anakin directing focus torwards inhibiting his rage altered his performance against Dooku to a large degree I'd imagine Dooku having to keep a part of his focus on Kenobi's location during the fight would affect him similarly. The text backs up my assertion by showing Dooku falling back but not in a desperate retreat against Skywalker.

Uh, no, he blatantly wasn't. Dooku even has time to come up with a strategy in an attempt to hinder Anakin. Given he was about to slip into unconsciousness whilst having leverage over Anakin by retreating up the stairs prior to their 1v1 I imagine it affected his performance greatly.

Given Anakin's performances dropped enormously after his focus was diverted I find it to be logical.

Dooku had time to come up with a strategy the other time as well. 😬

"Dropped" as in "doing the same thing." The only distinction between the two scenes was one was written concerning how badly Dooku was being beaten, and the other was written concerning how badly Skywalker was holding himself back. The fact the text discusses the latter rather than the former doesn't mean the former didn't occur. The text made note that Dooku was being pounded at and driven back - just as he was prior. The notion using basic Force sense is depleting Dooku's power is honestly, and I'm not even exaggerating, the most retarded argument I've ever heard trying to counter Anakin's performance against Dooku.

Even besides the obvious fact that using your senses is really just using a drop in a bucket of power, the text makes note of Dooku not knowing where Anakin or Kenobi is several times during the fight.

EXHIBIT A: "Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished. And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

EXHIBIT B: But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unseremoniously to the floor.

EXHIBIT C: Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down— Skywalker was already there.

EXHIBIT D: He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle- sweep—the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away— Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.

So, no. He probably wasn't even keeping tabs on Kenobi, and even if he was, it wouldn't be a factor in the fight.

Beni resorting to Christie Golden, ew.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Reading is fun. :up;

Literally 1 day later (in fact, its literally the very next Anakin section) he's sobbing like a baby. So your idea of a "permanent change" in him is literally just Knightfall. Where theres no narration or indication of Anakin's actually abilities. Wow, so compelling.

That doesn't even say what you want it to, like usual you're spectacularly terrible at interpreting sources and just assuming they agree with you. Theres no evidence he reached the level he did against Dooku afterwards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where theres no narration or indication of Anakin's actually abilities. Wow, so compelling..