Yoda vs RotS Vader

Originally posted by Nephthys
Literally 1 day later (in fact, its literally the very next Anakin section) he's sobbing like a baby. So your idea of a "permanent change" in him is literally just Knightfall. Where theres no narration or indication of Anakin's actually abilities. Wow, so compelling.

That doesn't even say what you want it to, like usual you're spectacularly terrible at interpreting sources and just assuming they agree with you. Theres no evidence he reached the level he did against Dooku afterwards.

So your argument is 'no'? The text doesn't state he's casually observing and controlling his emotions and crushes the fear clouding his mind?

What a nice world of denial you love to live in.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Besides one-shotting Drallig. 😬

Which he didn't do.

Besides, since when was Drallig remotely relevant.

He butchered him easily.

He was relevant when he was stated to be a greater swordsmaster than ROTS Shaak Ti and when Dooku states Grievous would be bent over like a school girl in a contest with him.

@DarthAnt: Yes, the strategy being to have battledroids fire on Anakin and Obi Wan to buy him time to take Obi Wan out of the equation so that he wouldn't have to expend a part of his focus on keeping track of when Kenobi was. The difference being that Dooku's retreat up the stairs actually had him on the brink of unconsciousness while Anakin and Dooku's 1v1 where Dooku did not have to keep track of Kenobi simply had Dooku falling back.

If Dooku was on the edge of unconsciousness during that period Anakin and Dooku were in a 1v1 after Kenobi had been taken out of the fight and before Anakin was coaxed into his rage then why wasn't he defeated sooner?

I'm not saying Dooku using force senses depleted his energies. I'm saying not being able to divert his full attention to dealing with Anakin was.

Exactly. Whenever Dooku lost track of either Anakin or Kenobi during the fight he always ended up in a position where he was being driven back which is why he would have been attempting to keep track of them some ways into the fight when he's realized the true extent of their capabilites. He's now fully aware of just how dangerous they are to him by themselves and he knows if he's caught unaware by one of them whilst being driven back by the other he has no chance.

As I said, Anakin diverting his focus to keeping his rage bottled up seemed to affect his performances greatly. Dooku being forced to do the same upon realizing Anakin and Obi Wan's capabilities would have weakened him in a similar manner and this is backed up by Dooku's retreat being far less desperate after Kenobi is taken out of the picture.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So your argument is 'no'? The text doesn't state he's casually observing and controlling his emotions and crushes the fear clouding his mind?

What a nice world of denial you love to live in.

My argument is that theres no proof of his achieving the same thing he did against Dooku again. Savage improved his mindset and abilities after the Dooku fight yet never again achieved anything remotely like what he did in that fight.

Do you have a rebuttal apart from accusing me of denial? You've done that like 6 times in 2 days. Get a new line, geez.

Of course, its a largely irrelevant point since the conversation and epiphany you posted isn't in the movie and is completely non-canon. Hows that for denial. 😆

The two things you're trying to compare there aren't similar at all, Syn.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Beni resorting to Christie Golden, ew.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean Canon friend, which as we know trumps your every argument. 🙂 👆

Since basically none of the RotS novel is at all. 👆

Pretty sure Zonakin isn't even canon in the slightest, lol.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The two things you're trying to compare there aren't similar at all, Syn.

Anakin focusing on keeping his rage bottled up and Dooku focusing on keeping track of Obi Wan's location in the fight both of which inhibiting their ability to fully focus on defeating their opponent?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Since basically none of the RotS novel is at all. 👆

Pretty sure Zonakin isn't even canon in the slightest, lol.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The two things you're trying to compare there aren't similar at all, Syn.

---

Syn, your argument also rests on the assumption they fought in the two respective instances for the same duration.

Using the movie fight as reference, Skywalker pushing Dooku to the brink of unconsciousness took over ten seconds, while later where he was "merely pushing him back" like you claim was literally just three.

If Skywalker fought Dooku for the same duration again, the same results would likely occur, given the fact that the only distinction isn't a distinction but rather you making shit up.

So, no. 👆

Do you have a rebuttal apart from accusing me of denial? You've done that like 6 times in 2 days. Get a new line, geez.

Well, no, because denial is the fitting adjective for someone who is trying to laugh off a dozen quotes pointing in the opposite direction from his position.

Of course, its a largely irrelevant point since the conversation and epiphany you posted isn't in the movie and is completely non-canon. Hows that for denial. 😆

Well, considering internal monologues are silent, that could very well be in the movie. The dialogue is slightly different, but that scene was in the movie, and that power boost is mentioned in the databanks' description of the movie version. 👆

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
👆

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Syn, your argument also rests on the assumption they fought in the two respective instances for the same duration.

Using the movie fight as reference, Skywalker pushing Dooku to the brink of unconsciousness took over ten seconds, while later where he was "merely pushing him back" like you claim was literally just three.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw

So, no. 👆

I don't believe that to be the case.

The movie? The movie and novel are completely different occurrences. There's no moment where Anakin doubts himself and Sidious shouts encouragement. There's no way you can reconcile the novel and film to support your viewpoint or for me to support mine so why bother? Use one or the other. There's too many contradictions between the two to mesh it together like you're attempting.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
👆

---

Syn, your argument also rests on the assumption they fought in the two respective instances for the same duration.

Using the movie fight as reference, Skywalker pushing Dooku to the brink of unconsciousness took over ten seconds, while later where he was "merely pushing him back" like you claim was literally just three.

If Skywalker fought Dooku for the same duration again, the same results would likely occur, given the fact that the only distinction isn't a distinction but rather you making shit up.

So, no. 👆

Lmao trying to use the movie to back up the novels wildly different version of the fight

👆 Honestly.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, considering internal monologues are silent, that could very well be in the movie. The dialogue is slightly different, but that scene was in the movie, and that power boost is mentioned in the databanks' description of the movie version. 👆

It doesn't happen at all. Sidious never encourages Anakin on using his anger, they don't have anything resembling that conversation (lol, "slightly different"?) and Anakin never shows any sign of having an internal monologue in that scene to this effect at the point he does in the book.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I don't believe that to be the case.

The movie? The movie and novel are completely different occurrences. There's no moment where Anakin doubts himself and Sidious shouts encouragement. There's no way you can reconcile the novel and film to support your viewpoint or for me to support mine so why bother? Use one or the other. There's too many contradictions between the two to mesh it together like you're attempting.

Plus, the novel was based on the film anyway, so to say that using it as a reference isn't allowed is pretty laughable, especially considering, once again, you literally have nothing to use as a reference for your argument. Especially considering you like to mash together the novel, comic, and video-game version of the Marek vs Shaak Ti fight, but now don't want to do it here because it don't fit your retarded opinions.

So, find me a quote that states Dooku was keeping tabs on Kenobi through the Force, and then find me a quote that states doing such hindered Dooku considerably, and then a quote stating the two fights occurred for around the same duration, or jump off a cliff. 👆

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Using the movie as reference holds more weight than your fanfiction theory that Dooku was using a lot of his power to keep tabs on Kenobi, which isn't stated in the book or even briefly mentioned. Hell, the book doesn't even make note of Dooku sensing Kenobi through the Force. Quite the contrary, actually. And quite frankly, the novel fight is rather consistent with the movie fight in terms of general flow: The duo fights Dooku -> Kenobi is pushed -> Anakin fights Dooku and pushes him back -> Kenobi kills the droids and attacks Dooku -> Dooku incapacitates Kenobi -> Anakin pushes back Dooku -> Dooku taunts Anakin -> Anakin kills Dooku.

Plus, the novel was based on the film anyway, so to say that using it as a reference isn't allowed is pretty laughable, especially considering, once again, you literally have nothing to use as a reference for your argument.

I didn't say it was a lot of his power. I just noted that Anakin not focusing entirely on Dooku caused Dooku to gain the upper hand and Dooku doing the same so as not to be taken by surprise by Kenobi would have had a similar affect. I don't see why that is unreasonable to you.

It doesn't matter. The scene you're referencing is wholesale excluded from the movie fight therefore it can't be referenced to support your point in regards to that scene.

To use it as a reference for a scene that wasn't even included in the movie is laughable. I'm simply using logic to ascertain why Dooku would have performed a certain way which given the nature of debates is valid and reasonable. Sorry if you don't feel the same.

Edit: Just because you don't want to use logical inference doesn't mean I or others will forgo its use.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Using the movie as reference holds more weight than your fanfiction theory that Dooku was using a lot of his power to keep tabs on Kenobi, which isn't stated in the book or even briefly mentioned. Hell, the book doesn't even make note of Dooku sensing Kenobi through the Force. Quite the contrary, actually. And quite frankly, the novel fight is rather consistent with the movie fight in terms of general flow: The duo fights Dooku -> Kenobi is pushed -> Anakin fights Dooku and pushes him back -> Kenobi kills the droids and attacks Dooku -> Dooku incapacitates Kenobi -> Anakin pushes back Dooku -> Dooku taunts Anakin -> Anakin kills Dooku.

Plus, the novel was based on the film anyway, so to say that using it as a [b]reference isn't allowed is pretty laughable, especially considering, once again, you literally have nothing to use as a reference for your argument. Especially considering you like to mash together the novel, comic, and video-game version of the Marek vs Shaak Ti fight, but now don't want to do it here because it don't fit your retarded opinions. [/B]

The novel was based on an out of date screenplay that Lucas blatantly contradicted in the final version. The book came out before the film, it wasn't based on it at all. The Dooku fight is wildly different and is completely incompatable between the two version, where the movie is unconditionally the more valid one. The parts you're using in your argument aren't remotely present in it.

@Syndicate: What scene wasn't included in the movie? 😬

I just noted that Anakin not focusing entirely on Dooku caused Dooku to gain the upper hand and Dooku doing the same so as not to be taken by surprise by Kenobi would have had a similar affect. I don't see why that is unreasonable to you.