Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yeah? Being one of the best is vague in context, the Maul quotes gives a range of years and Sith Lords to scale off of. Like the Dooku quote, he's one of the best in the orders 25.000 year old history versus Malaks "one of the best" quote. There's a huge difference wouldn't you say?It's like Tachi's quote of being the Best lightsaber fighter in the entire temple, we're given that quote with no context or mention of the master's so...suddenly she's master tier? As a padawan? No because obviously someone like Jinn, by virtue of feats" the most celebrated master quote, is obviously superior to her.
I'm pretty sure anyone with a first grade education can tell you history>a range of years
And also Tachi's quote said "one of" the best lightsaber fighters, not the best. It seems you can't even properly recall the accolades of your own characters and you're accusing me of making incorrect points and spreading false information?
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
No he's not the best, counts as one of the best right? The argument here is that given that each generation of Master and Apprentice grows in power, that Maul would be above several Banite Sith, likely above Bane and Zannah through scaling. His quote about being better trained than most Sith in the last 2500 or so years just adds to that.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
If you're gonna make a point, make sure it's correct.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Please, I'm not Marco lol
It also states each generation grew more powerful so...This would assume he's better than Tenebrous tho :mmm:
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You didn't quote anything with a quote so which one are you referring to?
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Dude, Elite bullet or whatever ain't a big secret. And you lost rights to secret club when Syn spilled the beans on here buddy
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Me 🙂
Liar. We all must hate Beni for refusing to sacrifice in the name of ruining Ant's respect thread mmm
"My reward for the game: Whoever makes Beniboybling an hero - and broadcast the event live for all us to see - gets to add, remove, or change 10,000 characters worth of my Revan Respect Thread."
Beni, you're an **** 🙂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
@DMB, in all fairness by Banite scaling the combative training afforded by Maul should blow Bane's out of the water. 👆
If you like you can provide quotes, but from the excerpts of the trilogy that I recall Sidious saw several weakness in Maul and that is part of the reason that he didn't warn him of what he sensed when he sent him against Qui-gon and Kenobi.
And speaking of that duel, I'd certainly give Bane that victory if he'd been on planet facing Kenobi and Qui-gon, and in shorter order. Anyway, peak Bane vs any iteration of Maul goes to Bane via his combat showings as well as his demonstration of Force mastery. I think it's foolish to pretend that someone with almost no skills beyond his blade and precognition isn't going to have difficulty against someone able to disintegrate bodies via the Force.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
snip
I am not trying to save face, old friend. That's it.
However, Neph is right, this devolved into sarcastic quibs from me and insults from you. You're response is justified.
My deepest apologies. I remain adamant in my belief that Maul is better, if you would like we can continue debating in a civil manner,like the old days, if not then we won't. I leave it up to you.
Originally posted by AscendancyBane's mastery of the Force, as I've prior explained, combatively only gives him the ability to wield Force lightning, and I ask once again what evidence there is Bane took to saber combat far more quickly than Maul, when he fully mastered Niman in the fraction of the minimum 10 years required to do so, alongside Jar'Kai, Ataru and the most difficult and demanding of the forms of all, Juyo. All which he had perfected by the age of 20.
Yet Maul doesn't demonstrate anywhere near the mastery of the Force that Bane does. Not in how quickly he began to master saber combat, not in Force techniques, and not in his ability to comprehend arcane Force abilities. Via what Palpatine put Maul through his speed with a saber is clearly up there, but he doesn't show feats that would convince me that he could stand against Bane all out.
If you like you can provide quotes, but from the excerpts of the trilogy that I recall Sidious saw several weakness in Maul and that is part of the reason that he didn't warn him of what he sensed when he sent him against Qui-gon and Kenobi.Sidious considered Maul's skills "flawless", his death on Naboo a true loss and had intended for him to serve a greater role in the Grand Plan as his Sith apprentice, so I can't imagine what excerpts your referring to.
And speaking of that duel, I'd certainly give Bane that victory if he'd been on planet facing Kenobi and Qui-gon, and in shorter order.Maul only lost that fight do to overconfidence, as far combat was concerned he had them beaten. The duel was lengthy but only because Maul chose to separate Jinn and Kenobi before defeating them. In reality Maul was fending off their combined assault with contemptible ease, described as possessing skills that near eclipsed them both combined and on Tatooine Jinn was described as barely escaping with his life, despite Maul being injured and keep his saberstaff in reserve.
Regardless considering in his prime he was ragdolling Kenobi and blitzing Savage, I imagine he'd defeat Jinn and Kenobi in much shorter order indeed.
Anyway, peak Bane vs any iteration of Maul goes to Bane via his combat showings as well as his demonstration of Force mastery. I think it's foolish to pretend that someone with almost no skills beyond his blade and precognition isn't going to have difficulty against someone able to disintegrate bodies via the Force.Almost no skills beyond his blade and precognition? He possesses physical prowess that surpass Bane's own, is a master of numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, is his equal as a telekinetic, and a tactical genius.
On the other hand Bane has lightning, and can disintegrate bodies with the Force. So I suppose Maul is losing to Bandon and Kajin Savaros now?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not when combatively lightning is Maul's only shortcoming. Which he can probably just block with his lightsaber.
You mean on top of the other techniques Maul lacks. But no, obviously Maul is more skilled despite having far less skills than Bane does. Obviously. Maul blocking lightning is irrelevant (although, can you actually block lightning with the Darksaber?) to the discussion of whether Bane is one of the most skilled Sith in history.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He resorted to dual-wielding against Sidious, no reason to rule out him doing the same here.And yes because again, Bane was too powerful. He moved beyond forms
Already dealt with. Maul has no advantage here, and Bane is even more familiar with single saber style than he is double-bladed.
You act as if Bane is some noob who only won by being strong. Bane still had to use his own skills to win, he didn't just club him into submission. It's a testament to his skill that he could anticipate, react, counter and nullify every "every possible sequence, series, move, and trick" Kas'im could attempt, which is every move of every form. Without Kas'im able to do the same to Bane, when Kas'im is far more familiar with Bane's techniques than Bane is with Kas'im's. Bane beat him with his own techniques. Bane can do the same to Maul's single saber style. Bane still created an impenetrable defense using his own skills. He defeated Kas'im with his own skills. He wouldn't have been able to gain the upper hand without his own skills being hugely advanced.
Also did the rest of your reply get cut off here?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
My point is its not a advanced Force ability, but when does Bane generate a complete Force bubble in combat?
I see you've conceded the first paragraph. Good.
It is, Force Bubbles are a more advanced defense than your standard force shields and barriers. I already posted, he does it in DoE.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I have, but naturally to make a comparison you have to, compare. Give it a try.
I don't have to post evidence for Maul, that's your job. Bane's learning rate in PoD is insane, he masters Force Lightning in an hour. He outmatches the greatest living swordsman in a yearish of training. Post something comparable for Maul.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ha ha ha, but jokes aside Maul defeated him in lightsaber combat, as every source on the fight attests to. Neither did Kenobi ever actually overcome Maul in TCW, and was fighting in an amped state due to Gallia's death, on top of catching Maul off-guard with an uncharacteristically aggressive offense.
Uncharacteristically aggressive? When has Kenobi fought Maul without going on the aggressive? And he wasn't amped, he was just fighting at his best.
The fact is that many are every bit as skilled or competent as Maul is with a fraction of the training. Bane included. Bane also had far more time to grow his skills than Maul did, with a much greater learning rate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Quite. Because none of the advantages he had against Kas'im there he has against Maul here. Skill never being among them.
Bane is more powerful than Maul and he knows his own style better than he does Kas'im's, as is made clear in the book.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
All I'm pointing out dear is that its not very good proof Bane is on par with Maul as a duelist when Kas'im was clearly the better swordsman, no need to get your knickers in a twist.
And I've told you time and again that Kas'im was not the better swordsman. Bane thoroughly bested him in a fair fight. Kindly accept this fact or offer a counter-argument for why Kas'im is better despite getting his ass kicked until he cheated. Maul doesn't have the option to go dual-sabers here. He can't pull the same trick Kas'im did.
Just because Maul doesn't have 2 Sabers that doesn't negate his level of Duelling skill.
His mastery of the Saber Staff and wielding dual Sabers just demonstrates his level of skill. Doesn't mean he specifically needs them to win a fight. After all he challenged both Windu and Secura combined with that single badass Dark Saber.
Also who says Maul had trained longer than Obi-Wan by TPM?
Beni suggested that Maul could use dual sabers to beat Bane just like Kas'im did. He can't. Beni also said that Bane partly had an advantage over Kas'im because of his familiarity with double-blades lightsaber style. Bane is more familiar with single bladed style.
So Maul using 1 saber is relevant in these regards.
Originally posted by NephthysNo I don't, combatively speaking Bane has nothing else, which is what's relevant to this discussion. Nor does quantity translate into quality, otherwise Maul wins by default since he's mastered at least twice as many forms as Bane.
You mean on top of the other techniques Maul lacks. But no, obviously Maul is more skilled despite having far less skills than Bane does. Obviously. Maul blocking lightning is irrelevant (although, can you actually block lightning with the Darksaber?) to the discussion of whether Bane is one of the most skilled Sith in history.
And seeing as the Darksaber is a kind of lightsaber, I would assume so.
Already dealt with. Maul has no advantage here, and Bane is even more familiar with single saber style than he is double-bladed.Nope it's all there.You act as if Bane is some noob who only won by being strong. Bane still had to use his own skills to win, he didn't just club him into submission. It's a testament to his skill that he could anticipate, react, counter and nullify every "every possible sequence, series, move, and trick" Kas'im could attempt, which is every move of every form. Without Kas'im able to do the same to Bane, when Kas'im is far more familiar with Bane's techniques than Bane is with Kas'im's. Bane beat him with his own techniques. Bane can do the same to Maul's single saber style. Bane still created an impenetrable defense using his own skills. He defeated Kas'im with his own skills. He wouldn't have been able to gain the upper hand without his own skills being hugely advanced.
Also did the rest of your reply get cut off here?
Anyway you're attempt at strawmanning aside, though his skills evidently played a role in allowing him to channel his power effectively, it was power and power alone to which Bane's victory is attributed to. The fact that instead of trying to think through Kas'im's moves he surrendered his autonomy to the dark side and let it fight for him, speaking volumes as to how first and foremost, yes, Bane was beating Kas'im into submission with a proverbial Force club:
Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.So assuming he can come close to replicating this against Maul entirely without a massive Force advantage is to employ terribly flawed reasoning.Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.
[...]
The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force.
As for Bane being "hugely advanced in skill", not so when in his own opinion his saber talent was "no match" for Kas'im, who he concedes to be the better duelist:
After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.
I see you've conceded the first paragraph. Good.Wrong again I'm afraid, as I said a Force bubble is not a particularly special or rare application of the Force. But if you want to assume Bane is one of the most skilled Sith in history because he can wield Force lightning and use flashy techniques against fodder opponents then that's your business. But considering how limited he is in applicable Force techniques here I couldn't care less. Whereas on the other hand none of that proves Bane is a match for Maul in martial skill, and he can match Bane's TK and block his lightning just fine.It is, Force Bubbles are a more advanced defense than your standard force shields and barriers. I already posted, he does it in DoE.
I don't have to post evidence for Maul, that's your job. Bane's learning rate in PoD is insane, he masters Force Lightning in an hour. He outmatches the greatest living swordsman in a yearish of training. Post something comparable for Maul.No friend, you actually need to complete your line of reasoning to prove your point.
But very well, I'll help you out by getting ball rolling; as I explained to Ascendancy he mastered Niman, Ataru, Jar'Kai, Juyo and likely more besides (considering the impenetrable defence he offered against Jinn and Kenobi, I'd say Soresu), to level of perfection that placed him among the most skilled Sith in history, in the space of seven years, five of which he spent at the Osiris Academy in which he had only intermittent contact with his master, where it would have taken a Jedi at least a decade to master Niman alone, and logically several decades more to master the other forms. And not only that ended up utterly outclassing those, like Jinn, who had.
In comparison in one year of dedicated training, PoD Bane got really good, but remained "no match" in skill to one of the aforementioned (or at least supposedly) greatest duelists in mythos. Now here's the part where you explain to me how despite that Bane's growth rate is significantly better than Maul's, or better at all.
Uncharacteristically aggressive? When has Kenobi fought Maul without going on the aggressive? And he wasn't amped, he was just fighting at his best.It may surprise you friend but Kenobi's primary form is actually Soresu. Whereas yes, he became uncharacteristically aggressive according to the novelisation:
Darth Maul: Shadow ConspiracyAnd my point was he had a mental advantage, yet despite that failed to defeat Maul.The two Sith fell back, startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attacks.
The fact is that many are every bit as skilled or competent as Maul is with a fraction of the training. Bane included. Bane also had far more time to grow his skills than Maul did, with a much greater learning rate.No there aren't, Kenobi was outclassed by Maul at the same age, and only after gaining a decade of training over him and two years of battlefield experience was he able to compete. Jinn had 40 years on Maul and was prodigy among the Jedi, and yet was thrashed by the twentysomething regardless. Likewise Maul is able to swing with the likes of Dooku and Windu, despite both having many many decades of training and experience on him; no, rather it's a testament to Maul's tutelage and innate talent that he is able to compare despite having a fraction of their training.
On the other hand if we wish to change the goal posts and argue that Bane too has the advantage of years over Maul then fair enough, but much like them he's playing catchup. At Maul's age Bane is far from as capable a duelist, and I'm seeing no feats that suggest he became one as of DoE.
Bane is more powerful than Maul and he knows his own style better than he does Kas'im's, as is made clear in the book.On what basis? His Lehon feat? Destroying some tents? Bane may be more masterful in the dark side but I'm seeing no evidence he is more powerful, and if anything Maul has an edge over him in regards to physical prowess.
And I assume you mean Kas'im knows Bane's own style better than Bane knows Kas'im's. Which while true doesn't alter the fact that Bane knows nothing of how Maul fights, so he still doesn't have that advantage.
And I've told you time and again that Kas'im was not the better swordsman. Bane thoroughly bested him in a fair fight. Kindly accept this fact or offer a counter-argument for why Kas'im is better despite getting his ass kicked until he cheated. Maul doesn't have the option to go dual-sabers here. He can't pull the same trick Kas'im did.Cheated? 😂
Using a style your opponent is unfamiliar with hardly excuses getting trashed when he eclipsed Kas'im's Force abilities by a mile. No, ultimately he lost because Kas'im was the better swordsman. Something again Bane plainly admits:
After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bane's mastery of the Force, as I've prior explained, combatively only gives him the ability to wield Force lightning, and I ask once again what evidence there is Bane took to saber combat far more quickly than Maul, when he fully mastered Niman in the fraction of the minimum 10 years required to do so, alongside Jar'Kai, Ataru and the most difficult and demanding of the forms of all, Juyo. All which he had perfected by the age of 20.
I'm just going to answer this as I've already answered all your other points above and Neph reiterated the problems with your argument below. If Bane showing disintegration and Force Bubbles against real foes somehow means he can't use it against Maul you're going to have to come up with something very convincing for that.
Yes, Maul mastered them more quickly than most, but Bane was a completely learned swordsman within a year or so of tutelage under Kas'im and dueling with the other Sith. You can reread his battles and the excerpts if you like, but his mastery of the forms was all but complete, and he wasn't raised in the presence of a single master intent on training only him from the start the way that Maul was.
Bane's rate of retention was higher than Maul's, his mastery was greater, and his feats with the blade show him to be a better duelist in a shorter period of time. Lastly, his feats as of DoE show him to possess speed beyond what Maul has demonstrated, even at his best.