SoD Maul vs DoE Bane

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I'm not really seeing the parity here. The fight seems to be a brutal ambush of a woman wanting to inflict pain against a Jedi who doesn't want to even raise his weapon.

Githany's comments that Keil wouldn't even attack her was following his injury that forced him onto the ground, suggesting she's referring to his lack of response to her assault.

There's no saying that Keil, if he wanted to kill Githany, couldn't have launched an offense that would shatter her defenses. The fight portrayed doesn't give any hints either way.

I disagree with you, but even aside from that Githany has shat on other Jedi/Sith Master level opponents and is one of the more powerful Sith Masters, so Sirak shitting on her still gives quite a bit of validity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't feel like you need to reply if its such a burden. We both know this is going nowhere.

Nah I have time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jesus, this really isn't the hill you want to be dying on here Beni. Just concede and eat some crow.

I don't know Neph, these walls of cancer text might kill me yet...

Now to break it down.

So combatively Bane has nothing more except for far more than Maul does? Gosh yeah, you sure kicked my ass there.

Combatively speaking, again no, he has one power on Maul that he can provably employ, let's count them together now 1. Force lightning. And that's a wrap, well done - which, in case you missed, is not "far more" by any stretch of the imagination, as I've said a number of times now.

And no, whats relevant this this discussion is how skilled Bane is.

What's relevant to this discussion is what skills Bane can bring to this fight, and in so far all you've managed to chalk up is sparkle hands.

The fact that he is highly skilled in many advanced combat techniques is proof of how skilled he is.

In the Force, yeah? I agreed on that several pages ago, but as I keep pointing out his inability to apply almost any of that to this situation makes it next to a non-factor. It's like bringing up Vitiate's knowledge of Sith sorcery in a sabers only contest, nobody gives a flying ****. On the other hand Bane lacks feats that compare to Maul being among the best in mythos as far as it pertains to relevant abilities like martial skill, which is why he will lose.

And just because Bane's main techniques are TK and lightning doesn't make him less skilled or anything. That's what most Sith's main offensive abilities are (y'know, except for Maul lol), like Sidious, Plagueis, Malgus etc.

I never said it did, but it does make Bane's wider mastery of the Force pretty irrelevant to this debate.

But if you want quality then we can look at how Bane is capable of disintegrating opponents, an advanced level of TK ability beyond Maul's grasp. but no maul can push poeple and choke them obviuusly hes the beeeest

You mean rusty technobeasts some centuries old, on a dark side nexus of all places, incredible. Maul blew away an army. But yeah, ragdolling Kenobi > crushing Qordis.

Also I'm pretty sure Bane's mastered at least as many forms as Maul has.

He's mastered Djem So and Juyo to my knowledge, Maul's mastered Jar'Kai, Ataru, Juyo and Niman.

It's not a standard blade and its thin as shit. IDK, you'd be hard pressed to block lightning with that.

It's a lightsaber and therefore a plasma weapon; and that's not how deflecting Force lightning works, they don't just raise their saber and hope it sticks. 😐

Oh I assumed you had a more complete argument than that or something.

Lol, you can't accuse me of strawmanning and then make the very same argument.

It's not but I don't expect you to realise that.

Bane had the edge due to his power, yeah. But when it came down to a contest between Bane and a master of all lightsaber forms to their highest degree, the fact that the only significant factor was power is itself a testament to Bane's skill. There was no flaw in Bane's abilities that Kas'im could exploit to gain the upper hand and Bane's absolute knowledge of dueling allowed him to nullify every move Kas'im could possibly attempt.

No it means Bane's power was so great that Kas'im's skill just didn't matter, he was "simply too strong in the Force." Again nowhere is his advantage attributed to this "absolute knowledge" of duelling you keep referring to, just all of Kas'im's moves with the saberstaff, nor is it anywhere stated that Bane's technique was flawless, those are inventions on your part. He won because he was much faster, stronger, and thanks to superior precog always several steps ahead.

And wtf, every Jedi and Sith tries to become an extension of the Force. That's like the highest level of combat as Kas'im makes clear in the very book.

"The goal was to become an extension of the dark side itself."

"Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

Also it's clear in the book that duelists don't actually turn their brains off, the whole point is in knowing the techniques well enough that every possibility is instinctively known and you perform the moves without effort. Otherwise Kas'im trick wouldn't work, Bane wouldn't need to think of the dual blades possibilities.

Erm, I never said it wasn't commonplace, in fact it just so happens to be the reason why those with tremendous Force strength but rudimentary combat skills can contend with much better swordsman (see Savage Opress.)

However you'd be wrong in assuming it's the ultimate fighting form, in fact Dooku is critical of Anakin and Kenobi in RotS for fighting in this manner as it made them easy to outmanoeuvre, while he fought consciously and methodically, Plagueis employing a similar strategy to defeat Venamis, and Bane himself later being more conscious and methodical in attempting to dismantle Zannah's Soresu in DoE.

But that's besides the point, the point is Bane was relying overwhelming on power rather than skill to defeat Kas'im, his skills just being a vehicle for his power. However that only goes so far, with Bane expressly stating that when Kas'im pulls his double blades, his command of the Force simply isn't sufficient to carry him in this manner anymore:

Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style.

Oh my jesus christ. facepalm2 I gave you the benefit of the doubt because of Temp's thread but I think at this point it's really looking like you are just trying troll me. Bane said that after Kas'im pulled out the second saber. He was no match for Kas'im in that state. It isn't relevant here.

I can't imagine what you are referring to dear but your inability to read is what's baffling here.

In Bane's internal monologue he is praising Kas'im's holistic talent as a duelist, the fact he has "mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber [...] honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon", and it is to that holistic talent to which Bane comes to realise that, now that Kas'im has unleashed is true strength, he is "no match", which would not only be a disingenuine statement but completely unwarranted if the only reason Bane was losing was because Kas'im cheated. Everyone else has managed to work this out, I'm sure you can too.

But if that wasn't bad enough he outright states he is the inferior swordsmaster by admitting Kas'im is the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. And unless you plan to argue that Bane is in fact a reanimated corpse, you may as well concede now.

No, while I will happily admit that Bane's unfamiliarity with Kas'im's fighting style (and as DMB pointed out, very likely his primary one, meaning with a saberstaff he was actually at less than his best) played a part in his defeat, that only makes up for Kas'im's massive disadvantage in Force strength, whereas we have no reason to believe that without that he wouldn't have beaten Bane regardless, just not quite as badly.

Lol, dude I'm just having some fun here. Lets not pretend I'm taking the idea that Bane isn't one of the most skilled Sith in history with the the slightest bit of seriousness. Anyway.

I mean, you saying it isn't rare sure is compelling. But I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Like I said, barrier and shield are the basic abilities and bubble is the more advanced version. Sorry not sorry to tell you. He's still less limited than Maul is tho.

Maul has never blocked lightning ever. I guess that's something else Bane has on him.....

1. Again, you're entitled to your opinions.

2. Oh, "I'm right, you're wrong", how compelling. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you want evidence of its commonplace. But he can't even employ it in combat, so again I couldn't care less.

3. Ha ha, how facetious. On the other hand that grimacing gif is a pretty accurate depiction of how I felt while reading this.

No, I don't. I've posted evidence for Bane's learning rate, now you need to post proof that Maul's is in any way comparable. That's how debates work, I post something, you post something and we squabble over which is better. Can't believe I actually have to tell you this tbh. Kind of awkward.

Niman and Jar'Kai are kind of the same thing but whatevs. And no, being able to defend doesn't mean you're using Soresu. 🙄 Being among the most skilled is an entirely worthless accolade so it doesn't mean anything in comparison to Bane. Bane was wrecking a guy who'd mastered every aspect of the saber, acting as if he isn't among the most skilled is absolutely laughable.

You're forgetting that Bane had decades after PoD to grow in. He was gathering all the necessary information for his Order. I doubt he didn't gather knowledge of all lightsaber forms, even assuming he lacked mastery in all of them already. In a few years his skills would utterly eclipse Maul's to a laughable degree.

But anyway, Ascendancy seems to have this so no need to continue with this.

Terribly, but not for the reasons you think, and exacerbated by your complete lack of an attempt to disprove my point. I assume that's to be taken as a concession that Maul's growth rate is in fact just as considerable.

As for the rest, Niman is provides foundation for study of Jar'Kai but it is not the same; considering both Juyo and Ataru as both weak defensively and against multiple opponents, I'd say considerable knowledge of Soresu would be necessary to prevent him getting eviscerated on Naboo; "It's worthless cause reasons" is what's worthless here; being outclassed as a swordsman by an actual member of Maul's club is a mark against Bane, not for him; I'm forgetting nothing, as I'm sure you've since surmised, I address that directly later on, and well, that's my response - but of course, you do realise that Maul would have access to all the knowledge Bane gathered of the lightsaber forms and more besides?; lol at leaving this to Ascendancy, tantamount to a concession tbh. 🙂

According to the RotS novel, Kenobi used Ataru up to the Dooku duel. Please don't tell me that book could be inaccurate, my heart may not take it. Regardless, Maul fought Kenobi when he used Ataru in TPM and then in Revival or Revenge or whatever Kenobi went aggressive on him. They were likely surprised he was taking the offensive when it was 2 vs 1. Not that's them being surprised is nearly as significant a factor as Kenobi fighting two people at once.

Lmao, he didn't fail to defeat him. He cut his brothers arm off and had Maul running like a choirboy in the Vatican. Dude got wrecked.

Your jokes aren't funny Neph, pls stop. 🙁

Anyway the text says they were caught off-guard, so no purpose in debating that, and considering that Kenobi states this element of surprise to be his "only chance" of escaping with his life, I'd say it was a pretty significant factor.

The reason Maul ran being because his brother got his arm cut off, he feared for his life and no point did Kenobi wreck him, lol, instead it's Kenobi that gets dismissed. But I suspect that again you are being facetious, or perhaps you really are that stupid. mmm

There are dozens.

Maul's training was many times more vigorous than Kenobi's was and far more focused on combat. Kenobi's time after TPM was also taken up with training Anakin and various other things. So Maul still had substantially more training than Kenobi and still got wrecked by him. The fact is that for all that Maul was obsessively trained he utterly fell short when compared to others. Ventress is near his level with literally a fraction of his training. Hilarious.

And yet you haven't named one.

Maul's training was more vigorous and martially focused yes (read better i.e. the point) but it was not substantially greater in length, not when, as I've already explained to you, he spent five of his seven years of lightsaber training at the Orsis Academy in which he had only intermittent contact with his master, and when Maul is on top of this studying Sith and Jedi lore, learning numerous exotic martial arts, honing his Force abilities and developing skills in manipulation, stealth, espionage, mechanics, strategy, politics etc. to become a practical renaissance man, whereas Kenobi again, has a dozen years on him.

As for Ventress being near his level, hilarious, quite.

Oh obviously Bane does have that. It's not changing the goal posts, its a fact. But Bane also has a significantly superior learning and became as skilled a Maul in a mere fraction of the time. But that's to be expected. The darkside flowed through Bane to a far greater extent than it ever did Maul.

It's all you have left, I'm just anticipating you abandoning your other arguments. But what do you mean "significantly superior learning"? Regardless this argument hinges on Bane being even equal to Kas'im as a swordsmaster by PoD, when he was in-fact, "no match". As for the dark side flowing through Bane greater than it did Maul, laughable when Sidious passed Mother Talzin up for him as an infant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm sure you're well aware of Bane's feats and accolades. But I mean, ultimately Bane is called one of the most powerful Sith ever and Maul isn't. I see no basis for Maul to be in that camp.

Yes I am and I'm coming up empty, and considering Maul was able to telekinetically dominate one of the most powerful Jedi ever in Kenobi, I think he qualifies.

I'm pretty sure Bane knows what Niman, Ataru and Juyo look like, lol. And no, I mean that Bane was taught to focus on his own abilities and master his own technique over studying Kas'im's. He's be more knowledgeable of single saber style than he would double-bladed.

The basic principles? Yes. But turns out different duelists have employ different techniques, and by the same logic Bane's single saber style would not be remotely the same as Maul's, obviously.

Yes, cheated. Kas'im trained a weakness into Bane and then exploited it. It wasn't a factor of Kas'im being better than Bane, it was that Bane didn't know how to fight against dual saber style. In a fair contest Bane was wrecking him.

Maul can't pull out a second saber here, so it's irrelevant.

Covered, I'm sure by now you've already written your concession.