Originally posted by Epicurus
I am guessing since every single instance wherein a feminist makes a crude joke about castration, or the fact that thanks to feminism, the US divorce laws went from being biased in favor of men to being biased in favor of women, instead of being biased in favor of hermaphrodites/eunuchs since they are equal parts men and women.The last part is pure conjecture on my part, since I know shitall about divorce laws(American or not) in general.
I lol'd.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Well you have to understand that feminism historically had to focus on women due to the vast difference in treatment. And when we get to issues like how rape is handled/presented it's clear there's a reason it's still the focus. That said baring some extreme sub groups that like to talk shit online no one is anti men and tend to support men's right to act differently then the gender roles suggest
I have zero problem with feminism helping women to achieve parity in situations in which they don't have it. That's never been an issue for me, and I applaud anyone that's actually working to achieve those kinds of goals.
I just don't like the way certain groups say they want to help men, while at the same time stabbing them in the back.
Equality for one gender doesn't mean taking a big, steaming shit on the other. Men and women are supposed to be a team, not enemies.
Originally posted by Bardock42
So, you are for "true" equality, Pr? What do you feel has to be achieved for that? What issues do women face that you think need to be worked on, what issues do men face? How do you think they can be worked on? Are you in any egalitarian groups that have been working towards a goal, or is this mostly lip service like I said about most egalitarians?
What do I feel has to be achieved for true equality? Is it not really self-explanatory that we need to look at the ways men and women suffer inequality, and to work to eliminate that?
How can they be worked on? By combining forces, and to stop seeing each other as adversaries.
I haven't done as much as I would have liked to, but I have done what little I can. I donate what little money I can afford to shelters for both men and women. I engage with politicians when they come around, and ask them about issues that directly affect equality. I vote when shit comes up.
There are no real egalitarian groups in Ireland, but I don't see how joining up with a Feminist group that acts like i'm the enemy (and I have encountered some) would do anybody any good.
So while it's not as much as I would like, I am making what effort I can.
Same question to you.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think Rao Kal El actually knows what feminism is.Do you mean misandry?
It is mainly because feminism historically has focused mainly on female problems.
Remember that case in Florida where a young female teacher had an affair with a 14 or 16 year old kid?
I don't recall any feminist group saying anything about that (maybe I just miss it)
But in role reversal comes true equality, IMO
If there is a group that actually is looking for gender equality they work on both sides of the isle equally they should not focus 80 to 90% of their focus on problems of one gender and 20% on the problems of the other gender, because that is not equal.
We as males have our own share of gender treatment just because We are men and historically almost no one has look into it.
Maybe is because We are raised to not complain and to suck it up, because We are men, but the problems are there, yet most of the effort goes into fixing the female issues rather than fixing BOTH genders issues.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
It is mainly because feminism historically has focused mainly on female problems.Remember that case in Florida where a young female teacher had an affair with a 14 or 16 year old kid?
I don't recall any feminist group saying anything about that (maybe I just miss it)
But in role reversal comes true equality, IMO
If there is a group that actually is looking for gender equality they work on both sides of the isle equally they should not focus 80 to 90% of their focus on problems of one gender and 20% on the problems of the other gender, because that is not equal.
We as males have our own share of gender treatment just because We are men and historically almost no one has look into it.
Maybe is because We are raised to not complain and to suck it up, because We are men, but the problems are there, yet most of the effort goes into fixing the female issues rather than fixing BOTH genders issues.
To be fair, there are women's issues that do deserve as much attention as any that men might have. Putting one ahead of the other is what causes all these problems in the first place.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I have zero problem with feminism helping women to achieve parity in situations in which they don't have it. That's never been an issue for me, and I applaud anyone that's actually working to achieve those kinds of goals.I just don't like the way certain groups say they want to help men, while at the same time stabbing them in the back.
Equality for one gender doesn't mean taking a big, steaming shit on the other. Men and women are supposed to be a team, not enemies.
.
I agree some individuals and groups within it are extreme and fall into misandry but to me that isn't a knock on the movement itself. Just like the civil rights movement wasn't anti white just because NOI ended up with a lot of followers. The overall goal isn't men as enemies it's in changing how society treats it. And you can support multiple movements at once, so being feminist doesn't mean I can't support causes where men are unfairly looked at such as custody cases.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Remember that case in Florida where a young female teacher had an affair with a 14 or 16 year old kid?I don't recall any feminist group saying anything about that (maybe I just miss it)
Or am I remembering a different case? Anyhoo, in majority of these student/teacher cases, the teacher is the one who is charged as being guilty of statutory rape. Not the other way round.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I agree some individuals and groups within it are extreme and fall into misandry but to me that isn't a knock on the movement itself. Just like the civil rights movement wasn't anti white just because NOI ended up with a lot of followers. The overall goal isn't men as enemies it's in changing how society treats it. And you can support multiple movements at once, so being feminist doesn't mean I can't support causes where men are unfairly looked at such as custody cases.
Of course, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.
Just like I'm sure that 90%, if not more, of the average women on the street who identify as feminists, don't want to bury men in the ground or have them all exterminated, or some such.
I just hate this idea that men don't have issues just because women have them too, and then they get ignored because "women have it worse".
As if compassion is some sort of finite ****ing resource.
Originally posted by -Pr-
What do I feel has to be achieved for true equality? Is it not really self-explanatory that we need to look at the ways men and women suffer inequality, and to work to eliminate that?
That is exactly my issue with egalitarianism. They don't do that, they don't consider what issues people actually face. It's an extremely simplistic movement that's really just "it would be nice if everyone's equal, but I don't want to think about what that means". Feminism has a long history of exactly pointing out how and why women are treated differently (and luckily a lot of the great work they've done can be applied to men) and it has actively worked to destroy the structures that uphold this inequality.
I can understand that you feel excluded, like Lek Kuen said there are extremist and, imo, inappropriate people that work under the banner for feminism, but that's really a minority. Most feminists are people that want to do good.
Egalitarianism makes one feel good, but leads to nothing, it's a way to not face things. Feminism hurts you, because it makes you face what you've done wrong in the past, what you still do wrong, and also what you can't help, it's uncomfortable, but at least it does something good (for women AND men).
Originally posted by Epicurus
I am guessing since every single instance wherein a feminist makes a crude joke about castration, or the fact that thanks to feminism, the US divorce laws went from being biased in favor of men to being biased in favor of women, instead of being biased in favor of hermaphrodites/eunuchs since they are equal parts men and women.The last part is pure conjecture on my part, since I know shitall about divorce laws(American or not) in general.
I have a story to share in here.
I know this guy which I will name "Roger" who is a very successful business man, he owns a business that makes a lot of money and he lives comfortably.
He was married to this woman that I will name "Sue"
So Roger being a successful man he had the money, so Sue did not need to work, she stayed home raising the kids, she was a very pretty woman, went to the beauty shop often so she can look good and also spent some at the gym everyday.
One day Roger finds out that Sue is cheating on him with the gym trainer, she cheated on him, not him on her.
They file for divorce and Roger gets kick out of his brand new house, he looses the Porsche SUV and the kids stay with her, plus He has to give her money.
Roger had to hire very expensive lawyers to fix this situation whole Sue did not have to expend a single penny to get what she got.
In the end, Roger kept the house, He lost the Porsche SUV, they share custody of the kids, but he has to give her money for her beauty shop/ gym routine "because she got used to that lifestyle, because of him, and because of that now is his obligation"
If you ask me, I think that is pretty unfair for him as SHE was the one who cheated.
That is how Florida laws treat men when it comes down to divorce.
A marriage is a contract to pool your resources for the good of the family you create. The guy isn't a successful businessman in a vacuum, rather his wife, at least in theory, is helping him by, for example, taking care of the children or household. If one is not willing to be part of such a union one should not marry, or change the terms of the contract via a pre-nup.
Originally posted by Epicurus
IIRC, the teacher ended up serving jail time for a couple years.Or am I remembering a different case? Anyhoo, in majority of these student/teacher cases, the teacher is the one who is charged as being guilty of statutory rape. Not the other way round.
Yes thats the one
"Debra Lafave's sexual liasons with a 14-year-old student made tabloid headlines nationwide. The boy told investigators that he had sex with his teacher at Greco Middle School near Tampa, in her town house and once in a vehicle with his 15-year-old cousin driving. Lafave, 25, pleaded guilty to lewd and lascivious battery in 2005 and cut a deal to avoid prison by serving three years of house arrest."
In contrast
"Alain Cupas is serving a 30-year prison sentence for molesting a 15-year-old student at Everglades High School in Miramar, where he was a wrestling coach. While escorting the student to class, Cupas, then 28, kissed and fondled her and exposed himself. The girl testified at his trial last year that Cupas backed her against a wall and said, "Damn, you're so fine, you're so sexy. I shouldn't be doing this. I could get fired for this.''
Conraad Hoever, a teacher at Blanche Ely High School, was arrested for molesting a 15-year-old student in 2007. Hoever, then 43, taught math at the Pompano Beach school. At a court hearing last week, he received the maximum sentence — 15 years in prison. "He violated the trust of our community,'' said prosecutor Francis Viamontes.
That's just to name a few
Originally posted by Bardock42
That is exactly my issue with egalitarianism. They don't do that, they don't consider what issues people actually face. It's an extremely simplistic movement that's really just "it would be nice if everyone's equal, but I don't want to think about what that means". Feminism has a long history of exactly pointing out how and why women are treated differently (and luckily a lot of the great work they've done can be applied to men) and it has actively worked to destroy the structures that uphold this inequality.I can understand that you feel excluded, like Lek Kuen said there are extremist and, imo, inappropriate people that work under the banner for feminism, but that's really a minority. Most feminists are people that want to do good.
Egalitarianism makes one feel good, but leads to nothing, it's a way to not face things. Feminism hurts you, because it makes you face what you've done wrong in the past, what you still do wrong, and also what you can't help, it's uncomfortable, but at least it does something good (for women AND men).
If i'm not egalitarian, then what should I be? I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't mean I won't stand outside Leinster House (our politician offices) with a placard that wants bodily autonomy for women.
I just reserve the right to want financial autonomy for men, as I don't think any one person has the right to control another.
Groups claiming to Feminist ones fought against equal parenting rights. They fought against the idea of protecting men that are falsely accused of rape. They fought against equal sentencing for equal crimes. They fought against men wanting domestic violence shelters, and the right for men not to be automatically assumed to be the perpetrator (and it isn't the vast majority of cases in which men are the perpetrator either). They fought against female rapists being charged as harshly as male ones. They actively fought against raising awareness of the point that women can, and have, raped men. Remember those "don't be that guy" posters? They fought against making child support a more robust, fairer system. When the recession hit and the government in the US tried to help the men that had been hit by the massive job losses in construction (a field in which 80% of the employees are men), it was attacked as being discriminatory.
Are these all feminists? No. Are they a vocal minority? Maybe so, but they are the vocal ones, which mean they are the ones being heard.
In the end, it comes down to the question of whether feminism should treat men's issues with the same attention that they do those of women. I actually don't think that they should. Women do suffer inequality in many ways, and those ways need to be addressed. If I, personally, have the opportunity to help any woman achieve parity, I will gladly do so.
I just expect the issues of men (which do exist, and aren't really being looked at with any real attention right now), to be treated with some respect, and to not simply be dismissed simply because they happen to be the problems of men.
There's room for both, imo.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I have a story to share in here.I know this guy which I will name "Roger" who is a very successful business man, he owns a business that makes a lot of money and he lives comfortably.
He was married to this woman that I will name "Sue"
So Roger being a successful man he had the money, so Sue did not need to work, she stayed home raising the kids, she was a very pretty woman, went to the beauty shop often so she can look good and also spent some at the gym everyday.
One day Roger finds out that Sue is cheating on him with the gym trainer, she cheated on him, not him on her.
They file for divorce and Roger gets kick out of his brand new house, he looses the Porsche SUV and the kids stay with her, plus He has to give her money.
Roger had to hire very expensive lawyers to fix this situation whole Sue did not have to expend a single penny to get what she got.
In the end, Roger kept the house, He lost the Porsche SUV, they share custody of the kids, but he has to give her money for her beauty shop/ gym routine "because she got used to that lifestyle, because of him, and because of that now is his obligation"
If you ask me, I think that is pretty unfair for him as SHE was the one who cheated.
That is how Florida laws treat men when it comes down to divorce.
I think that, while she should be given a settlement, as marriage is supposed to be a partnership, but I hate this whole "this is the life i was accustomed to, so now you have to fund it" bullshit.
Originally posted by Bardock42
A marriage is a contract to pool your resources for the good of the family you create. The guy isn't a successful businessman in a vacuum, rather his wife, at least in theory, is helping him by, for example, taking care of the children or household. If one is not willing to be part of such a union one should not marry, or change the terms of the contract via a pre-nup.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Yes thetas the one"Debra Lafave's sexual liasons with a 14-year-old student made tabloid headlines nationwide. The boy told investigators that he had sex with his teacher at Greco Middle School near Tampa, in her town house and once in a vehicle with his 15-year-old cousin driving. Lafave, 25, pleaded guilty to lewd and lascivious battery in 2005 and cut a deal to avoid prison by serving three years of house arrest."
In contrast
"Alain Cupas is serving a 30-year prison sentence for molesting a 15-year-old student at Everglades High School in Miramar, where he was a wrestling coach. While escorting the student to class, Cupas, then 28, kissed and fondled her and exposed himself. The girl testified at his trial last year that Cupas backed her against a wall and said, "Damn, you're so fine, you're so sexy. I shouldn't be doing this. I could get fired for this.''
Conraad Hoever, a teacher at Blanche Ely High School, was arrested for molesting a 15-year-old student in 2007. Hoever, then 43, taught math at the Pompano Beach school. At a court hearing last week, he received the maximum sentence — 15 years in prison. "He violated the trust of our community,'' said prosecutor Francis Viamontes.
That's just to name a few
Umm well one sounds like the coach actually assaulted her, versus statutory which is rape only because it's minor. Not the same at all
Originally posted by -Pr-
I just expect the issues of men (which do exist, and aren't really being looked at with any real attention right now), to be treated with some respect, and to not simply be dismissed simply because they happen to be the problems of men.There's room for both, imo.
While they should, the idea of men's right is mostly populated (or was hijacked by) by the sort of assholes who demand women give them sex and blame them for being raped. So maybe the men movement needs a new name
Originally posted by -Pr-
If i'm not egalitarian, then what should I be? I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't mean I won't stand outside Leinster House (our politician offices) with a placard that wants bodily autonomy for women.I just reserve the right to want financial autonomy for men, as I don't think any one person has the right to control another.
Groups claiming to Feminist ones fought against equal parenting rights. They fought against the idea of protecting men that are falsely accused of rape. They fought against equal sentencing for equal crimes. They fought against men wanting domestic violence shelters, and the right for men not to be automatically assumed to be the perpetrator (and it isn't the vast majority of cases in which men are the perpetrator either). They fought against female rapists being charged as harshly as male ones. They actively fought against raising awareness of the point that women can, and have, raped men. Remember those "don't be that guy" posters? They fought against making child support a more robust, fairer system. When the recession hit and the government in the US tried to help the men that had been hit by the massive job losses in construction (a field in which 80% of the employees are men), it was attacked as being discriminatory.
Are these all feminists? No. Are they a vocal minority? Maybe so, but they are the vocal ones, which mean they are the ones being heard.
In the end, it comes down to the question of whether feminism should treat men's issues with the same attention that they do those of women. I actually don't think that they should. Women do suffer inequality in many ways, and those ways need to be addressed. If I, personally, have the opportunity to help any woman achieve parity, I will gladly do so.
I just expect the issues of men (which do exist, and aren't really being looked at with any real attention right now), to be treated with some respect, and to not simply be dismissed simply because they happen to be the problems of men.
There's room for both, imo.
Well, perhaps my tone was too sharp, I did not mean to personally attack you. Rather an issue I have perceived with people that call themselves egalitarian. Too often it is used, imo, to disregard the issues. I think a true egalitarian would stand with feminists 90% of the time at least, but mostly I see it as a cop out, to still seem open minded, but not have to commit to anything. Again, I'm not saying you are like that, I hope you are not, because an egalitarian that is mostly pro-feminist issues would be a great ally to have, it just doesn't seem to happen in practice, at least not in my experience.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
While they should, the idea of men's right is mostly populated (or was hijacked by) by the sort of assholes who demand women give them sex and blame them for being raped. So the maybe men movement needs a new name
Oh yes, people under the banner of MRA are way, way worse. They are actively harming the cause of men, imo.
People that claim to be egalitarian, generally just don't do anything either way, in my experience.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Yes thats the one"Debra Lafave's sexual liasons with a 14-year-old student made tabloid headlines nationwide. The boy told investigators that he had sex with his teacher at Greco Middle School near Tampa, in her town house and once in a vehicle with his 15-year-old cousin driving. Lafave, 25, pleaded guilty to lewd and lascivious battery in 2005 and cut a deal to avoid prison by serving three years of house arrest."
In contrast
"Alain Cupas is serving a 30-year prison sentence for molesting a 15-year-old student at Everglades High School in Miramar, where he was a wrestling coach. While escorting the student to class, Cupas, then 28, kissed and fondled her and exposed himself. The girl testified at his trial last year that Cupas backed her against a wall and said, "Damn, you're so fine, you're so sexy. I shouldn't be doing this. I could get fired for this.''
Conraad Hoever, a teacher at Blanche Ely High School, was arrested for molesting a 15-year-old student in 2007. Hoever, then 43, taught math at the Pompano Beach school. At a court hearing last week, he received the maximum sentence — 15 years in prison. "He violated the trust of our community,'' said prosecutor Francis Viamontes.
That's just to name a few
The public outrage is definitely on the same level as your article about the wrestling coach, even if the sentence is substantially lighter.
IIRC, there was also a case where a guy was forced to pay child support for a kid that was the product of female-on-male rape, and instead decided to take the matter to court and won. Let me check that one up.
Originally posted by Epicurus
If that is your way of defending the clear bias showed in favor of the female spouse in majority of the divorce cases, then you might as well start justifying the average Indian defecating everywhere they go since poop is rich in nitrogen, which is good for the soil.awesr
I don't see the similarity. Sure we can argue about what a marriage generally entails, and how one should be compensated for doing the jobs that do not generate revenue for a family. And I do agree with PR, that the lifestyle excuse is bullshit. But if two people marry, and decide that one of them takes care of the children and household and the other focusses on their career, the fruits of that career should not be solely viewed as the property of the partner that got to focus on their career.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, perhaps my tone was too sharp, I did not mean to personally attack you. Rather an issue I have perceived with people that call themselves egalitarian. Too often it is used, imo, to disregard the issues. I think a true egalitarian would stand with feminists 90% of the time at least, but mostly I see it as a cop out, to still seem open minded, but not have to commit to anything. Again, I'm not saying you are like that, I hope you are not, because an egalitarian that is mostly pro-feminist issues would be a great ally to have, it just doesn't seem to happen in practice, at least not in my experience.
I honestly just want things to be fair across the board, that's all. I don't feel like Feminism or the groups that identify as such, truly want that, from what I've seen, so I look elsewhere.
Maybe I don't belong to any group; I don't mind if that's true. my desire for parity doesn't have to be defined by any one movement.
Honestly, it's a sensitive subject, im sure words will be said that might come across the wrong way. I don't mean hostility against anyone really. Not on any personal level.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh yes, people under the banner of MRA are way, way worse. They are actively harming the cause of men, imo.People that claim to be egalitarian, generally just don't do anything either way, in my experience.
Honestly, I don't agree. There is a lot of misinformation out there about MRAs, and they do actively work to spread awareness of men's issues. Hell, it's where I got most of the links I read that led me to the information I now know.
MRAs in the majority, just like the majority of feminists, just want fairness, and for inequality to become equality.