Feminism #2

Started by red g jacks14 pages

feminists always say if you believe in equality then you're a feminist. by that standard i'm a feminist, i think.

the thing which makes me reluctant to use that label is that i constantly see feminists making an issue out of shit i really don't care about or might even disagree with them about. it seems like they don't stick to political issues but want to dive into the media and what kinds of ideas need to be promoted and what kinds of ideas should be blacklisted. that kind of shit really turns me off.

The public face of feminism has been suffering lately. I'm beginning to wonder if mainstream feminism has indeed been hijacked by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
The public face of feminism has been suffering lately. I'm beginning to wonder if mainstream feminism has indeed been hijacked by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general.

Yeah, the previously pristine image of feminism, beloved by all.....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, the previously pristine image of feminism, beloved by all.....
Bardock's right.

Feminism has basically always been run by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general. 👆

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Bardock's right.

Feminism has basically always been run by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general. 👆

I'm pretty sure feminism predates the awful, abominable creature known as the 'tumblrina'.

EDIT: Also, while I'm sure feminism has always had its fair share of man-blamers and harpies, there seems to have been a marked increase of them with the advent of the so-called new wave feminism. To the point where some of the old-school/dissenting feminists have been bullied out of the mainstream movement.

women are life.. they give life and are the most rational. men cause war men kill... women take the most pain and suffering and are stepped on in society its a shame.

i hope everybody tells their mother they love them

Originally posted by Shabazz916
women are life.. they give life and are the most rational. men cause war men kill... women take the most pain and suffering and are stepped on in society its a shame.

i hope everybody tells their mother they love them

What a load of crock that is.

I love my mother, but it's not because she happens to be a woman(duh).

Originally posted by -Pr-
Red Pill are *****. They don't give a **** about helping men gain equality in the areas where they're at a disadvantage. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as MRAs, imo.

MGTOW is still not really what I would call a branch of MRA either, but that's imo.

A lot of the men on reddit are deeply cynical because they've lost their kids or been through messy divorces, so there is some wiggle room where you have to take things with a pinch of salt.

the MRA section on reddit does provide a lot of good information though, if you take the time to read through it.

Aye. I mean sure, there are bad women, but there are bad men too.

IIRC AVFM is the same organization Karen Straughan comes from. She actually has a video specifically on why some MRA's come off as angrily as they do. Her videos are worth a watch, imho.

Also, a lot of people confuse pick up artist communities with MRA communities for some reason.

I don't affiliate myself with either 'side' of Feminism v.s. MRA's though, simply because it seems to cause a very 'us v.s. them' thought process, with Feminists frequently trying to discredit MRA's and MRA's angrily deriding Feminists, etc.

I think both genders deal with a different set of problems.

So what you're trying to say is, both sides are wrong?

Everyone who isn't me, disagrees with me, or agrees with only part of something I say, is objectively 100% wrong. estahuh

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Everyone who isn't me, disagrees with me, or agrees with only part of something I say, is objectively 100% wrong. estahuh

😆 😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
IIRC AVFM is the same organization Karen Straughan comes from. She actually has a video specifically on why some MRA's come off as angrily as they do. Her videos are worth a watch, imho.

Also, a lot of people confuse pick up artist communities with MRA communities for some reason.

I don't affiliate myself with either 'side' of Feminism v.s. MRA's though, simply because it seems to cause a very 'us v.s. them' thought process, with Feminists frequently trying to discredit MRA's and MRA's angrily deriding Feminists, etc.

I think both genders deal with a different set of problems.

That was specifically why I said AVFM can seem both good and bad in its own way. People like her, from what I've read, do good stuff, but there are still bad ones.

it's a media thing. Groups claiming to want to work for women refuse to make the distinction, and when the media, biased as it is, picks up on it, they go with what is the most sensational.

Look at that Rodger guy, for instance.

"Oh, he was an MRA."

The **** he was. He hated men and women in equal measure.

It's better to be middle of the road, I agree. That way you can try to foster relations rather than create an unhealthy mentality.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Rao's example is one of traditional gender roles.

Your point being what exactly?
Originally posted by Bardock42
If he can show one where the man and woman worked equally as much to contribute to the family and yet the man was still the one having to pay upon separation then he should post that.

But that's exactly what he did. At least going by your logic pertaining traditional gender roles.

Or do your feminist beliefs now conveniently prevent you from admitting that raising children and being a homemaker is as essential a contribution to the family as being the breadwinner?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Since he didn't, it's not relevant.

I think you need to re-read your own statements regarding the matter:

"The guy isn't a successful businessman in a vacuum, rather his wife, at least in theory, is helping him by, for example, taking care of the children or household."

Anyways, I know of a few examples wherein the traditional gender roles got reversed, and still the husband had to pay child support and alimony to the wife. I am pretty sure you'll come up with some bizarre logic or another to justify those instances as well once I dig them up and post them on this thread.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Aye. I mean sure, there are bad women, but there are bad men too.

You say that as if the former is more common than the latter.😬

Originally posted by Epicurus
Your point being what exactly?

That you are pulling my quote out of context by pretending it was not in reply to Rao's example

Originally posted by Epicurus
But that's exactly what he did. At least going by your logic pertaining traditional gender roles.

Or do your feminist beliefs now conveniently prevent you from admitting that raising children and being a homemaker is as essential a contribution to the family as being the breadwinner?

I don't understand what you are trying to say. In Rao's example the man was the one making money and the woman was the caretaker of the children and the household. In case of a separation to be equitable it can't be that the man gets to keep all the money, right? Perhaps your issue is with the custody? However that is an issue that is decided in the best interest of the children, not the parents who separate, in so far it makes sense to initially keep them with the caretaker. And in the end it seems that custody was shared between the two. Rao says that the guy got himself an expensive lawyer, his phrasing doesn't make it clear whether the woman had to do the same after he did though. In all likelihood she would have to however, if she wanted to fight for sole custody.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I think you need to re-read your own statements regarding the matter:

"The guy isn't a successful businessman in a vacuum, rather his wife, at least in theory, is helping him by, for example, taking care of the children or household."

Anyways, I know of a few examples wherein the traditional gender roles got reversed, and still the husband had to pay child support and alimony to the wife. I am pretty sure you'll come up with some bizarre logic or another to justify those instances as well once I dig them up and post them on this thread.

Again, I don't follow your train of thought when you quote me there. What exactly is your issue with what I said there?

And I'm sure there's examples where the man has felt cheated by the system (and examples where I would agree that he has been cheated by the system, our judicial systems are flawed in many ways), there are also cases where women feel that way. To prove that this is a widespread discrimination of men we can't use anecdotal evidence. Many MRA groups try to use statistical approaches, but the ones I can see are usually flawed in by not taking into account whether the men in question actually wanted custody. Most custody decisions do not go to court, as there is no disagreement, and in most of those cases both parties decide that the woman should be the primary caretaker.

Now, I am with you that that's bullshit on a grand level, it shows how ****ed up our gender expectations are, but it doesn't show court bias (which is not to say that there isn't or can't be court bias, but MRAs don't prove their case very well if there is).

Originally posted by Shabazz916
women are life.. they give life and are the most rational. men cause war men kill... women take the most pain and suffering and are stepped on in society its a shame.

i hope everybody tells their mother they love them


Are you high?

Women are not more rational then men in general. In-fact, rationality is an individualistic trait. And women have also started wars (e.g. Margaret Hilda Thatcher; Indira Priyadarshini Gandhi; and more...)

Men have build, expanded and protected civilizations and not just their own families.

Both men and women endure pain and suffering depending upon their dynamics in life. Both men and women face issues in life. It is just that issues of women are given more importance and get more publicity.

Yes, most people love their mothers irrespective of gender.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Honestly, I don't agree. There is a lot of misinformation out there about MRAs, and they do actively work to spread awareness of men's issues. Hell, it's where I got most of the links I read that led me to the information I now know.

MRAs in the majority, just like the majority of feminists, just want fairness, and for inequality to become equality.

There is massive ignorance surrounding MRA's. It is startlingly bad. I don't belong to them, nor do I to feminism (I once did) but they get a rap that isn't just bad. It's wrong.

On a separate note, every time I see the words "real" and "feminist" in the same sentence, the sound of bagpipes is heard off in the distance...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Are you high?

Women are not more rational then men in general. In-fact, rationality is an individualistic trait. And women have also started wars (e.g. Margaret Hilda Thatcher; Indira Priyadarshini Gandhi; and more...)

Men have build, expanded and protected civilizations and not just their own families.

Both men and women endure pain and suffering depending upon their dynamics in life. Both men and women face issues in life. It is just that issues of women are given more importance and get more publicity.

Yes, most people love their mothers irrespective of gender.

He is just probably the end result of the ideology that men are evil.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Rao says that the guy got himself an expensive lawyer, his phrasing doesn't make it clear whether the woman had to do the same after he did though. In all likelihood she would have to however, if she wanted to fight for sole custody.

Honestly I do not know exactly, as far as I know he had to hire like 2 or 3 expensive lawyers, while she only had to hire 1, all the lawyers were paid with the money "they made" as a group as far as I know.

At the end of the day what matters is that He got screwed regardless of this being a traditional marriage or not, he got screwed, because the Florida divorce law works like that.

On a different note, here is another video that I found interesting, is a 3 part video

Part 1

YouTube video

Part 2

YouTube video

Part 3

YouTube video

Originally posted by Bardock42
That you are pulling my quote out of context by pretending it was not in reply to Rao's example.

Oh no, I know perfectly well that it was in reply to Rao's query. I was merely pointing out the clear apologist tone of the reply to you. Which you denied, over and over again.
Originally posted by Bardock42

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I think you do. If you don't, then let me repeat it for you; stop trying to defend the lopsided nature in which modern day American divorce laws work. Would you defend male-biased structure of these same laws from the early 20th century United States? Something tells me you won't.

Shit, if you want to comment on modern-day divorce settlements which screw women over, do so to those which take place in India and West Asia. Not the US.

Originally posted by Bardock42

In Rao's example the man was the one making money and the woman was the caretaker of the children and the household. In case of a separation to be equitable it can't be that the man gets to keep all the money, right?

Why should the man pay, if she was the one who cheated? Heck, why should the person who compromised this so-called contract in the first place get anything from the settlement suit at all?

I am pretty sure that if it had been the man who had committed the cheating, the divorce settlement would have been a good deal more severe for him than the case actually is as biensalsa presented it to us.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Perhaps your issue is with the custody? However that is an issue that is decided in the best interest of the children, not the parents who separate, in so far it makes sense to initially keep them with the caretaker. And in the end it seems that custody was shared between the two. Rao says that the guy got himself an expensive lawyer, his phrasing doesn't make it clear whether the woman had to do the same after he did though. In all likelihood she would have to however, if she wanted to fight for sole custody.

As the above paragraph indicates, my issue is not with custody. However Rao clearly indicates that the husband had to spend considerably more money on getting good lawyers, as opposed to the wife who only sufficed with one. Just imagine how tough a divorce settlement could then be(at least from the husband's perspective) if they have to spend considerably more resources on just getting a suitable attorney, than what the wife has to spend.

And considering that the man's the breadwinner of the family in this case, while the wife (I am assuming sh1t here) apparently is not, in all likelihood it was his money which paid for her lawyer as well. Either that or the state provided it for her(does Florida have such regulations in place for divorce and alimony settlements).

And as biensalsa further tells us; providing money for the continued caretaking and rearing of the children is one thing; but the court apparently also forced him to pay for a particular luxurious habit which she had picked up. That too screams unfairness to me, although I am guessing it might not to you.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Again, I don't follow your train of thought when you quote me there. What exactly is your issue with what I said there?

Then go through our discussion again, with a clear mind. You'll get it the second time round.👆
Originally posted by Bardock42
And I'm sure there's examples where the man has felt cheated by the system (and examples where I would agree that he has been cheated by the system, our judicial systems are flawed in many ways), there are also cases where women feel that way.

In this day and age? Are you f*cking kidding me? 😂

Even if they were, these cases would in all likelihood stand out as outliers, not part of the common trend of such legal separation procedures.

Originally posted by Bardock42

To prove that this is a widespread discrimination of men we can't use anecdotal evidence.

This isn't anecdotal evidence:
http://www.wikivorce.com/divorce/divorce-settlements.html

In fact the study goes so far as to conclude that because of the current structure of divorce laws pertaining child custody and financial support, women seem to find it advantageous to be single instead of being married.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Many MRA groups try to use statistical approaches, but the ones I can see are usually flawed in by not taking into account whether the men in question actually wanted custody.

Most MRAs also partake in stupid shit like justifying rape, giving bullshit reasons to exclude women from the various male-dominated fields etc. I am not an MRA, nor do I support their tactics, so no point in bringing them up in this conversation.
Originally posted by Bardock42

Most custody decisions do not go to court, as there is no disagreement, and in most of those cases both parties decide that the woman should be the primary caretaker.

Nah, more like the court more or less has already made up its mind about keeping the children with the mother, instead of the father. But if you want to go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that the husband is amicably agreeable to such an arrangement, then that's your prerogative.
Originally posted by Bardock42

Now, I am with you that that's bullshit on a grand level, it shows how ****ed up our gender expectations are, but it doesn't show court bias (which is not to say that there isn't or can't be court bias, but MRAs don't prove their case very well if there is).

Yes it does. You are almost as bad as the MRAs if you have to go so far as to dig your face in the ground like an ostrich to deny the fact that US courts in more instances than not, clearly showcase gender bias in favor of the wife when sorting out a divorce settlement.